How do you say "Otto"

[Wilfrid]

I think that's arbitrary, Fat Bloke. If someone opens a business and then asks us all to pronounce the name of the business incorrectly, I think we can lodge a gentle protest.

I have a slightly different take on this. I wouldn't mind so much if pronunciation were Americanized/Anglicized in a way which accorded with the rules of those languages. Risotto, with a short first 'o' and a long second 'o', as if it were a word in English, doesn't grate on my ears nearly so much the draaaaaggged out vowels, which are deployed - I believe - in a misguided attempt at Italian pronunciation. Same way I don't have a big problem with a regular, English short first 'o' in "Rioja".

[Wilfrid]

If it served tapas, and was called "Calle Ocho", and the owners asked us to rhyme "Calle" with "alley", would we be as accommodating?

[Fat Guy]

Wilfrid, I'm not convinced that the pronunciation is incorrect for Americans if there truly isn't an American vowel equivalent anyway. But putting that issue aside for a second, how would you feel if the owners declared the official pronunciation to be "Camel"?

[Stone]

I found that most gyro places in Boston pronounced it gyro, not jee-ro.

[La Niña]

Wilfrid, I agree with you completely. I have a question about Brit pronunciation. I know Brits say val-et and duv-et and Quix-ot, etc - but what about Beethoven? Do Brits say Bee-thoven? What about that th?

[Fat Guy]

If it served tapas, and was called "Calle Ocho", and the owners asked us to rhyme "Calle" with "alley", would we be as accommodating?

I would. You wouldn't. We would and wouldn't.

[La Niña]

FG - it's completely irrelevant. The owners can say anything they want. Why does that mean we have to pronounce it the way they say?

I've been called Nine-ah by lots of southerners. And I say "I pronounce it Nee-nah" and they just think it's incorrect. They'll oblige me, but to them it doesn't sound right.

[Fat Guy]

I've been called  Nine-ah by lots of southerners.  And I say "I pronounce it Nee-nah" and they just think it's incorrect.  They'll oblige me, but to them it doesn't sound right.

But they oblige you. That strikes me as the right move, whether it sounds right to them or not.

[Wilfrid]

Believe it or not, "valet" is pronounced differently by different classes in Britain. G.Johnson pulls rank on me by sounding the "t" at the end - I don't. I think the "t" in "duvet" is always pronounced silently, but I may exhibiting my common roots again.

More and more Brits would now say "Qui-hoe-tay" than the old "Quick-shot", but oddly, Van "Goff" is still popular.

"Beethoven" is pronounced close to the German, but with a more open first vowel sound. Rhymes with "bait", I guess. I find it hard to type the German pronunciation, but it's roughly between "bait" and "bet", right?

And the "th". Separately, as if it was hyphenated. Beet-hoven.

[Fat Guy]

Wilfrid, from those examples can you deduce a rule that makes sense? Or is this all just a question of usage?

[Ron Johnson]

Despite how many ice cream stores Nina has been thrown out of, Joe and Mario are not mispronouncing the name of their own restaurant. Both are fluent in Italian and haved lived in Italy. They are pronouncing it correctly.

Edited January 15, 2003 by ron johnson (log)

[La Niña]

I've been called  Nine-ah by lots of southerners.  And I say "I pronounce it Nee-nah" and they just think it's incorrect.  They'll oblige me, but to them it doesn't sound right.

But they oblige you. That strikes me as the right move, whether it sounds right to them or not.

Because Nee-nah is one of the correct pronunciations of the word in English. But in the case of otto, it is NOT English.

[La Niña]

Despite how many ice cream stores Nina has been thrown out of, Joe and Mario are not mispronouncing the name of their own restaurant.  Both are fluent in Italian and haved lived in Italy.  They are pronouncing it correctly.

Not if they're saying oh-toe, they ain't.

[Ron Johnson]

Not if they're saying oh-toe, they ain't.

Wanna arm wrestle?

[Wilfrid]

Wilfrid, from those examples can you deduce a rule that makes sense? Or is this all just a question of usage?

Yes, they are all attempts to Anglicize a foreign name in a way roughly in accordance with normal English pronunciation. In no case is there a pretension to sound sophisticated and foreign. As there is with "oh-toe" and "ree-oe-ha", and goddam "bree-oe- sh".

Ron, it was Fat Bloke who said Mario and Joe had decided to pronounce the name of their restaurant wrong. And haven't you heard? Leg wrestling is all the rage. Miss J is going to enter a professional league.

Edited January 15, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[Fat Guy]

Because Nee-nah is one of the correct pronunciations of the word in English.

My guess is this isn't their thinking. They're more likely doing it because once somebody tells you how to pronounce his or her name, it's inconsiderate to pronounce it any other way. If you said you pronounced Nina as "Anya" that's how I'd pronounce your name. Would you think me wrong to do that?

[Wilfrid]

I agree it's polite to pronounce a person's name as they wish, but I don't think Nina would be pronouncing her name correctly in that case. I don't think her wishes could make that a correct pronunciation of "Nina". With the name of a restaurant, I think courtesy is much less important.

[cabrales]

Why doesn't a member call Otto, or if the line is busy, Lupa, Esca or Babbo, to ask?

[Dave the Cook]

I have to go along with Fat Guy. I think we've all learned this lesson before:

Pronunciation guide to proper nouns

[hensonville]

I would like respectfully to add a few historical footnotes. The Normans invaded England. They become the gentry. The Anglo-Saxons became the workers. The gentry ate and the workers produced. Thus, we eat beef from the French boeuf, but we grow cows, from the German kuehe. We eat mutton from the French mouton, but we grow sheep, from the German schaf. We eat pork, from the French porc, but we grow swine, from the German schwein. And so on. The French court and the French aristocracy dominated Europe culturally and, of course, geopolitically with Napoleon. The language of the Russian court and aristocracy was French. Viennese German is filled with French words. The Spanish chateaux are knockoffs of the French. The French dominated in cuisine as well as in many other areas. Thus, every aristocrat was familiar with French...language, fashion, manners.

In this country, until recently, a very small portion of the population had access to a university education. Achieving a university education included familiarity with French language, terminology, manners, and food. Many, if not all, people who had a university education studied Latin. Few people travelled abroad. Many among the upper classes went to Europe as part of their education.

In the last 40 years, all this changed. Many people attend universities. Language requirements have all but disappeared. And many people travel to Europe. European foods have become common in this country, and many more people have broader tastes and varied aspirations. At the same time, during the 1960s and after, a rejection of class became prevalent. So in some circles, it is an ideological point of pride to reject upper class symbols. The correct pronunciation can, by some people, connote class distinctions which they view with distaste.

Where one puts one's self on this continuum is of course a matter of personal choice.

[Fat Guy]

Yes, they are all attempts to Anglicize a foreign name in a way roughly in accordance with normal English pronunciation.  In no case is there a pretension to sound sophisticated and foreign.  As there is with "oh-toe" and "ree-oe-ha", and goddam "bree-oe- sh".

I assume you would not assign the "pretension to sound sophisticated and foreign" to someone merely because that person says "ree-oe-ha" or one of your other examples. I think most people who use those pronunciations are simply following whatever they've heard most often and have no motives beyond that.

[Stone]

Because Nee-nah is one of the correct pronunciations of the word in English.

My guess is this isn't their thinking. They're more likely doing it because once somebody tells you how to pronounce his or her name, it's inconsiderate to pronounce it any other way. If you said you pronounced Nina as "Anya" that's how I'd pronounce your name. Would you think me wrong to do that?

I once met someone named Eloise who pronounced her name "El-waaz." I didn't have the heart to tell her she was wrong.

[Stone]

I would like respectfully to add a few historical footnotes.  The Normans invaded England.  They become the gentry.  The Anglo-Saxons became the workers.  The gentry ate and the workers produced.  Thus, we eat beef from the French boeuf, but we grow cows, from the German kuehe.  We eat mutton from the French mouton, but we grow sheep, from the German schaf.  We eat pork, from the French porc, but we grow swine, from the German schwein.  And so on.  The French court and the French aristocracy dominated Europe culturally and, of course, geopolitically with Napoleon.  The language of the Russian court and aristocracy was French.  Viennese German is filled with French words.  The Spanish chateaux are knockoffs of the French.  The French dominated in cuisine as well as in many other areas.  Thus, every aristocrat was familiar with French...language, fashion, manners.

In this country, until recently, a very small portion of the population had access to a university education.  Achieving a university education included familiarity with French language, terminology, manners, and food.  Many, if not all, people who had a university education studied Latin.  Few people travelled abroad.  Many among the upper classes went to Europe as part of their education.

In the last 40 years, all this changed.  Many people attend universities.  Language requirements have all but disappeared.  And many people travel to Europe.  European foods have become common in this country, and many more people have broader tastes and varied aspirations.  At the same time, during the 1960s and after, a rejection of class became prevalent.  So in some circles, it is an ideological point of pride to reject upper class symbols.  The correct pronunciation can, by some people, connote class distinctions which they view with distaste.

Where one puts one's self on this continuum is of course a matter of personal choice.

I think Cabrales just fell in love.

[cabrales]

DStone001 -- Leaving aside the merits of your argument, how do you know hensonville is a male user? Plus, with all respect to hensonville, I am extremely picky (not that I have reason to be, but I am; that's not a statement with respect to only restaurants) and quirky.

Edited January 15, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[La Niña]

Why doesn't a member call Otto, or if the line is busy, Lupa, Esca or Babbo, to ask?

Cabby, dear heart - how would that help?