Menu Creation and the Perfect Meal

[A Scottish Chef]

In my thirst to develop as a Chef I often think about my weaknesses and how I might best improve them. Currently on my mind is menu creation and how to create a fine meal.

I have looked over the dinner thread on egullet with a great sense of envy at the knowledge displayed, but I just don't know where to start learning this skill well. I don't want to be ok at it, I'd like to be excellent. I can refer to books and take ideas from there, but I'll be honest and confess I don't really know why the Chef sets the meal out in the way he chooses.

If I had a beef dish for the main course, what would be an ideal starter? Would the choice of vegetables with the main course be influenced by the starter and what would follow? What about pudding? And why/when would I call it dessert or sweet if at all? If I had a hot starter, how would that impact on my choice of main course? Should it at all? As for wine, I know nothing. Again, I'm desperate to learn how and why wines are chosen for courses.

At home, when cooking for friends or family, I usually go with what I can do well or what people will enjoy most. I think thats a good idea in itself, but not even once can I say with confidence that I have planned a meal so the whole dining experience flows from start to finish.

My ambition currently would be to learn how and why a three course meal would work well.

I would happily take on board any advice offered about books that would help me as well.

[Suzanne F]

Have you had a look at Culinary Artistry by Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page? It was published here in 1996 by Van Nostrand Reinhold. Probably available through Amazon UK?

The authors spoke with many fine US chefs about flavors and foods that work well together (AD is himself a chef). The book can be quite useful, and even inspiring.

[Anna N]

In my thirst to develop as a Chef I often think about my weaknesses and how I might best improve them. Currently on my mind is menu creation and how to create a fine meal.

I have looked over the dinner thread on egullet with a great sense of envy at the knowledge displayed, but I just don't know where to start learning this skill well. I don't want to be ok at it, I'd like to be excellent. I can refer to books and take ideas from there, but I'll be honest and confess I don't really know why the Chef sets the meal out in the way he chooses.

If I had a beef dish for the main course, what would be an ideal starter? Would the choice of vegetables with the main course be influenced by the starter and what would follow? What about pudding? And why/when would I call it dessert or sweet if at all? If I had a hot starter, how would that impact on my choice of main course? Should it at all? As for wine, I know nothing. Again, I'm desperate to learn how and why wines are chosen for courses.

At home, when cooking for friends or family, I usually go with what I can do well or what people will enjoy most. I think thats a good idea in itself, but not even once can I say with confidence that I have planned a meal so the whole dining experience flows from start to finish. 

My ambition currently would be to learn how and why a three course meal would work well.

I would happily take on board any advice offered about books that would help me as well.

Thanks for asking these questions - I was too chicken to ask them! Like you, I try to think of what the people who will be eating like, and build around that. But I know it often isn't ideal - sometimes the dessert is far too rich to follow the main meal, sometimes the appetizer is just too highly spiced or too filling. Sometimes I just don't have a clue and make what I know will at least be edible.

[maggiethecat]

Scotsdude:

What a wonderful can of...er..beans...you have opened. Discussing the menu for an upcoming dinner party at our house can be the major topic of conversation for weeks.

To consider:

1)Who's coming?

We don't have any veggie friends, say, but we have discovered through experience, that a)One of our friends hates blue cheese b)One hates lamb c)Several who think that anything other than meat, starch and two veg is weird and exotic. You get the idea. d)Also, amazingly, some don't drink. At all. (Note to self: These are fine and interesting people whom we're proud to have as friends. Whassup with that? )

2)What's fresh, seasonal and/or on sale.

3)What would the correct balance be...light/heavy, rich/slim, meat/veggie, etc. Probably would not choose a rich dessert if we had cheese sooffle as a starter.

4)What do we do consistently well, so that we can take a Big Chance on another dish. One we've wanted to make for a long time, but is too expensive or time-consuming for just two of us. I know that this goes against all Received Wisdom, but there should be one adreline rush per event.

5)Your point about cooking what people enjoy most and what you cook well should not be ignored.

6)Entertain more, and sharpen those meal-planning skills! Heck, you can cook! That puts you ahead of most of the population.

7)Have no fear.

P.S. Have you recovered from that rude customer?

[Jon Tseng]

Random thoughts (errr, so whats new?)

best thing to keep it simple. do stuff you've done before (maybe not necessarily all at once) so you know it works. often a dish sounds really cool but falls miraculously apart into squidly, fudgy bits while the expectant diners are waiting next door

better still work up a repetoire of standbys/building blocks - i have several dishes which i know will work and which i often use as the bae of other dishes (too often victims - sorry, guests, sometimes say) - risotto, gazpacho sauce, slow-cooked salmon, confit duck. THis has two roles: i) ya sure it'll work on the big night ii) doing a dish a couple of times you get much better at it

plan around the main course - beef - sounds heavy - so something light for the starter and pudding - ie fish, white meat, veg-based starter. a salad garnished with goodies perhaps. fruit-based pudding (as opposed to choc & cream)

the secret of a good menu is contrast - so the diners don't get bored by similar-style dishes. rule of thumb is never to replicate stuff - don't replicate cooking methods or ingredients between courses. try to have dishes with contrasting textures, temperatures, degrees of stodiginess, lightness &tc

one hot course is more than enough for a three course meal!!! a cold, prepare-ahead starter and pud is the ideal way to avoid pre-meal stress!

don't reckon on your guests turning up on time ;-)

there is a good passage on menu-planning going over many of the above in a book called Leith's Contemporary Cooking, by Prue Leith

as maggie pointed out - think about whats seasonal - often tis cheaper

cook what you want to eat!

cheerio

j

[CheGuevara]

plan around the main course - beef - sounds heavy - so something light for the starter and pudding - ie fish, white meat, veg-based starter. a salad garnished with goodies perhaps.  fruit-based pudding (as opposed to choc & cream)

the secret of a good menu is contrast - so the diners don't get bored by similar-style dishes.  rule of thumb is never to replicate stuff - don't replicate cooking methods or ingredients between courses.  try to have dishes with contrasting textures, temperatures, degrees of stodiginess, lightness &tc

i think JT's comments sum up most of the considerations when preparing a menu. great idea to work around your main ingredient, if not main dish. that's usually how i begin. after that, work on contrast, but at the same time ensure the dishes go well together.

che

edit: always a good idea to let the season decide for you

Edited January 14, 2003 by CheGuevara (log)

[balex]

the secret of a good menu is contrast - so the diners don't get bored by similar-style dishes.  rule of thumb is never to replicate stuff - don't replicate cooking methods or ingredients between courses.  try to have dishes with contrasting textures, temperatures, degrees of stodiginess, lightness &tc

j

I removed a lot of very sound advice there -- particularly 'cook what you want to eat' which is an under-rated principle.

Just to add a bit of contrasting advice -- I actually favour having some repetition of ingredients to provide a thread of coherence in a menu.

Having the same or related ingredients in a couple of courses (in a 3-course meal this means starter and main course, most likely, though something like lemon could appear in the pudding), such as for example mushrooms, perhaps not the same sort of mushroom, can help to integrate a

meal better.

I completely agree with contrasting cooking styles, (e.g. not two fried dishes), contrasting textures and so on. Just don't rule out repetition of ingredients too dogmatically.

It can also help with wine selection a bit.

[Anna N]

Just picked up a book (which I have mentioned on mamster's market basket thread) called "Culinary Artistry" by Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page. Here's a blurb from the back cover:

"Culinary Artistry chronicles the creative process of culinary composition and explores the architecture of flavors, dishes, and menus." The National Culinary Review.

This is not a cookbook, has only a few black and white tiny photos but has lists and lists of ingredients that work together and lists of dishes made by famous chefs that use said ingredients. It also has a few recipes and many menus.

A Scottish Chef - this book might be of some interest to you.

If any one is familiar with this book, I love to hear your opinion.

[Andy Lynes]

"My Gastronomy" by Nico Ladenis has lots of things to say about balancing ingredients and menus.

There's some advice here : http://www.garyrhodes.com/intro1.htm

And I have something to say on the matter here : http://www.ukgourmet.com/soyou.html

[Suzanne F]

Just picked up a book (which I have mentioned on mamster's market basket thread) called "Culinary Artistry" by Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page.  Here's a blurb from the back cover:

"Culinary Artistry chronicles the creative process of culinary composition and explores the architecture of flavors, dishes, and menus."  The National Culinary Review.

This is not a cookbook, has only a few black and white tiny photos but has lists and lists of ingredients that work together and lists of dishes made by famous chefs that use said ingredients.  It also has a few recipes and many menus. 

A Scottish Chef - this book might be of some interest to you. 

If any one is familiar with this book, I love to hear your opinion.

As I, ahem, ahem, said in the very first response to ScottishChef's question, it "can be quite useful, and even inspiring." I did not mean to damn it with faint praise -- it is a terrific book, one that I look to frequently for suggestions when I'm tired of serving the same combinations over and over again. It reminds me that great chefs are different from you and me; they think on an entirely different plane. I'm grateful that Andrew and Karen talked to so many, and pulled their thoughts together so well.

[Anna N]

As I, ahem, ahem, said in the very first response to ScottishChef's question, it "can be quite useful, and even inspiring."    I did not mean to damn it with faint praise -- it is a terrific book, one that I look to frequently for suggestions when I'm tired of serving the same combinations over and over again.  It reminds me that great chefs are different from you and me; they think on an entirely different plane.  I'm grateful that Andrew and Karen talked to so many, and pulled their thoughts together so well.

Somehow I completely missed your post, Suzanne. I am truly sorry. Perhaps we somehow cross-posted early in the thread and then I only look at the ones I haven't read.

It was sheer serendipidity that I found this book today while looking for The Soul of a Chef - as recommended by mamster.

[Suzanne F]

Please don't feel bad, Anna. It was indeed serendipitous that you found the book, too -- and a wonderful book it is! I wish more chefs would look at it.

[Jinmyo]

Culinary Artistry is a very good book. I've only consulted the charts a few times and not since last year but it's nice to know they're there.

No entry on natto though.

The Soul of a Chef is great. As is the Making of a Chef.

I think that designing a meal involves contrasts and conguencies of flavour, aroma, texture, colour, and sometimes temperature. Assembling a meal on the basis of what someone likes or doesn't can be like:

"I like pizza, so a slice of pizza. I like baked potato so one of those. I like peanut butter so I'll dress the potao with peanut butter. Duck fat is good so a bowl of that."

I have found that if one considers a few main ingredients and then works backwards and forwards from that, letting the potential dishes just percolate and bubble up, bearing in mind the transition from dish to dish (most of my meals are served or eaten course by course) then the ingredients on hand will present new possibilities. These are refined during the course of setting the mise. I'm fortunate to be able to taste/smell/feel/see a dish on thinking of it so the process of elimination (editing is the most important part of any art or craft) is quite quick.

[JAZ]

I think a well designed menu does a number of things: it stimulates the palate but doesn’t overstimulate it; it provides a sense of continuity but doesn’t bore; it keeps one’s interest with contrasting elements but doesn’t confuse the palate.

So how do you come up with a menu that does all that? I’m sure there are different approaches, but here’s what I do:

For continuity’s sake, I stick to one general ethnic cuisine. That is, if my entrée is a Middle Eastern style chicken dish, I don’t start out with an Asian soup. I know it sounds obvious, but especially a few years back when fusion was so chic, it was amazing the combinations that people came up with. I once went to dinner at a friend’s where she started with a pumpkin soup flavored with ginger and coconut milk and followed it with a pasta primavera. Each dish was fine on its own, but the contrast was disconcerting.

Also for continuity’s sake, I stay with what’s seasonal, which doesn’t mean that I won’t use tomatoes in the winter, but does mean that I try to stick with dishes that “feel like” summer, or winter (or whatever) or are at least neutral on that front. That was another problem with the afore-mentioned menu: the soup felt like fall, but the pasta was all spring and summer.

So, keeping those two elements in mind, I usually (but not always) pick an entrée to begin with. Sometimes it’s a very general idea – “I feel like shortribs” – that I then toy around with possibilities for a while until something more specific emerges. Sometimes (not often) I start with a very specific dish in mind. Less often, I’ll begin with an idea for a soup or a side dish.

Regardless, what I do next is to break down my planned dish to its basic elements – not necessarily the main ingredients, but the flavor and textural components. So for my purposes here, "beef" as a main dish tells me very little, because it could encompass anything from beef curry to grilled steak to braised pot roast to Beef Wellington. Each of those would have different elements I'd have to work with, so each would suggest different accompaniments.

Some of the taste elements to think about are how strong the flavors are, and how complex; whether one taste dominates or several blend together; and which of the basic tastes (sweet, salty, sour, bitter and umami if you’re inclined to treat that as a separate taste) are present. This last part is crucial, because the basic tastes interact and influence your palate in very definite ways. Overt sweetness tends to dull the palate; acid tends to “wake it up.” A little salt can whet the appetite, but too much is deadening. Likewise with bitter tastes – a little bitterness can be a great palate cleanser, but too much can overwhelm it. Balancing these elements in a menu (and indeed, in a dish) is really important.

Aside from the basic tastes, you should keep in mind that very strong flavors – garlic, some herbs and spices, very ripe cheeses – can also overwhelm the palate, which can mean that too much of them too early in the menu will lessen one’s ability to appreciate what comes after.

Textural elements include how rich the dish is; the acid content (which plays a crucial role in the mouthfeel of the dish); and whether the dish is crunchy, smooth, chewy or crisp (to name just a few of the possible textures). Then there’s a whole host of what are known as “chemo-sensory irritations” – the burn of chiles, the heat of mustard or horseradish, the bite of mint and the tingle of carbonation (in drinks).

Probably the most important textural element is the balance of fat and acid, not necessarily within each dish, but within a menu. Fats and oils are wonderful ingredients – they carry flavor, provide a nice “mouthfeel” and give one a sense of satiety. But too much of this very good thing can be cloying and seem to coat one’s mouth most unpleasantly. Too much acid alone is likewise nasty. But a touch of acid to cut through the fat (or a bit of fat to round out the acid) provides a balance that works. It’s one of the reasons that a simple salad with a tangy vinaigrette is so often served (at least in France) between a heavy meat course and a rich cheese course.

The textural components that involve the way food breaks against the teeth – whether it’s crunchy or smooth, crispy or chewy – are where contrast comes into play. No one wants a meal that’s uniformly smooth and creamy, or so unrelentingly crunchy that it seems more like a dental exercise than a dinner.

Another element to consider is the complexity of each of the dishes. If you have a very complex main dish – either one with several elements or one with multiple layers of flavor, you might want to consider serving simpler starters or side dishes. For example, if I’m making chicken breasts with a reduction of vermouth and orange juice and finished with cherry tomatoes and capers, I probably don’t want to serve it with a gratin of potatoes and cheese or a complicated risotto. If I really want to make the risotto or the gratin, I’ll be better off going with a simpler roasted chicken.

And finally, think about this: you want to stay interested in your dinner all the way to the end. If you start out with a showstopper, chances are that your next course will disappoint. Which is not to say that your hors d’oeuvre or first course can’t be exquisite; it certainly can be. But it should function as does a good opening chapter in a novel: it draws you in, but leaves you wanting more.

So to plan a menu successfully, all you have to do is remember all of that and choose your dishes accordingly. Actually, with some practice, you’ll start to do it automatically. Start out small (maybe a starter, an entrée with one side dish, and a dessert). One way to get practice is to critique restaurant menus, or the menus you have at friends’ houses (don’t do it aloud though). And don’t forget to critique your own menus and learn from your mistakes. If you're interested, I can give some some spectacularly good and wretchedly bad examples of menus along with my commentary on why they work or don't.

As for books on food and wine, Great Tastes Made Simple by Andrea Immer is a good beginning book on wine and food pairing; Leslie Brenner's Fear of Wine is not primarily about pairing but has a good chapter on the subject.

But there really aren't any books with much information on how to combine foods and develop menus. Don't get me wrong, I really like Culinary Artistry -- it contains a lot of great information from some really wonderful chefs, but there's not much theory there. By that I mean that there's a lot of "This is what I do" information but not much of "This is why I do it."

On the other hand, if you can wait until I finish my book and find a publisher, there will be a book on exactly that subject. I can't say that it will be great, but I can say that it will be unique.

[awbrig]

awesome post JAZ!

How do you feel about repeating a certain ingredient throughout a menu... or not...

Thanks...

aw

Edited January 17, 2003 by awbrig (log)

[maggiethecat]

On the other hand, if you can wait until I finish my book and find a publisher, there will be a book on exactly that subject. I can't say that it will be great, but I can say that it will be unique.

JAZ: Superb post. Welcome. You gave me much to think about...although, considering, it's just good sense.

Let us know the publication date.

[JAZ]

How do you feel about repeating a certain ingredient throughout a menu...  or not...

It depends on the ingredient (don't you just love answers like that?)

Some ingredients are very versatile and could lend themselves to that quite well; some would simply be too much. I can't, for example, see an all lamb menu, but an all mushroom menu could probably be made to work. In certain circumstances I could see a menu in which the ingredient provided the continuity, enabling a chef to compose, for example, a six-course tasting menu consisting of shrimp dishes reminiscent of six different cuisines. It would take a talented chef, and the order of the cuisines represented would have to be very well thought out (off the top of my head, I'm thinking you could start with Latin America, then go to the Caribbean, which shares some of the same flavor elements; then on to Africa, the Middle East and the end with the Mediterranean, except that's only five and I don't know where to go from there...). But that's a special case.

For the home cook, I can't see anything wrong with repeating an ingredient, if it doesn't become boring. I'd be much more wary of repeating (to excess) the same texture, or as another poster mentioned earlier, the same cooking methods.

[JAZ]

Welcome.  You gave me much to think about...although, considering, it's just good sense.

Let us know the publication date.

Thanks so much. I've been having a great time browsing through all the posts over the past several days. Lots of great stuff here, and I'm glad I could add to it. (and, believe me, if and when I get a pub date, EVERYONE will know about it.)

But I'm at a big disadvantage; I feel I must come up with a signature as distinctive as everyone else's.

[A Scottish Chef]

If you're interested, I can give some some spectacularly good and wretchedly bad examples of menus along with my commentary on why they work or don't.

On the other hand, if you can wait until I finish my book and find a publisher, there will be a book on exactly that subject.

Thank you Jaz. Your post really helped.

I look forward to being able to read your work and I'd be delighted if you would take the trouble to post some successful, and less so, menu's. They why component is the key to understanding for me, so I'd be very grateful if you would add your commentary.

Thanks again.

[Jinmyo]

That was a wonderfully lucid post, JAZ. I agree completely.

[Jonathan Day]

JAZ, let me join the chorus. A lovely post. Bring on your book!

I posted a related note on menu construction and execution, last year -- here.

[JAZ]

I posted a related note on menu construction and execution, last year -- here.

Thanks for the link, Jonathan. Some great advice there. I actually remember the post on the other board about the chestnut soup, and although I didn't offer any advice, your answer ("leave it out") was exactly what I thought.

Joyce Goldstein, when talking about putting dishes and menus together, had another great point, "Just because you have a favorite blouse and a favorite skirt, that doesn't mean they'll look good together" (paraphrasing here, but you get the point). Some of my worst combinations resulted from the feeling that I "had" to make a particular dish, despite the fact that it didn't really go with the rest of the menu.

[JAZ]

I'd be delighted if you would take the trouble to post some successful, and less so, menu's. They why component is the key to understanding for me, so I'd be very grateful if you would add your commentary.

Well, I can't quite put my hands on my notes of the menus (just moved and haven't finished sorting out my files), but here a couple of examples to start.

The first was produced by an instructor acquaintance of mine for a class. He doesn't usually err quite like this, but I guess he had a bad night.

1st: cream of portobello mushroom soup garnished with a chevre/crame fraiche mixture.

2nd: a caesar-type salad (no egg in the dressing, but very thick) with parmesan and croutons

3rd: "pan roasted" chicken breasts with sauteed mixed mushrooms folded into a sherry cream sauce. Served with polenta enriched with cheese and butter

Dessert: an apple and cherry galette topped with cinnamon ice cream.

The first mistake that jumps out to me is that you have cream of mushroom soup for a first course and mushrooms with cream sauce in the third, which is in essense the same dish, just poured over chicken. And although I think you could come up with a successful menu that incorporated mushrooms into every dish, this one isn't it.

The second flaw (and this one is a biggie) is the sheer volume of rich dairy products. Too much, and too much the same: cream, cream and cheese in the first course; cheese in the second; cream and cheese again in the third and ice cream in the dessert. Not only is the menu incredibly filling, there's no break for the palate: it starts out with major rich and creamy elements and every course repeats them.

Third, although I have no problem with safe and familiar dishes or "comfort" food, a menu composed of nothing but is pretty boring. Sure the cream of mushroom soup is garnished with chevre, but it's still cream of mushroom soup. As for the second course, I suppose you could come with a more trite idea for a salad, but you'd have to try. Caesar salads are a dime a dozen, and although they have their place, in this case it doesn't add to the menu. It didn't even include anchovies, which would have at least provided a little zip for the palate. And the chicken with mushroom sauce, even if it didn't follow the soup, is pretty pedestrian too.

Overall, even though the dishes themselves may taste fine, the menu is just like a hike across a not terribly scenic plateau: no ups and downs and no relief in sight.

Can it be fixed? It can certainly be improved with some not terribly difficult modifications. If you really want the soup, fine, but maybe garnish it with dill to refresh or some crisped prosciutto (which, yes, is rich, but not creamy, and which would at least add some texture). Then go on with a salad dressed with a tangy vinaigrette. Some bitterish greens or maybe toasted walnuts would also help to refresh the palate after the soup. For the next course, well, if you were set on the mushrooms, then roast them and use them as a base for the chicken breasts (I'd ditch the polenta too). A pan sauce with a little sweetness and acid could make the dish much more interesting, and if you felt the need for some fat, you could still enrich it with a little butter without repeating the creamy mouthfeel of the soup.

The second example is actually one I made myself. It was before I really started to pay attention to this sort of thing, and I fell into a trap: I really REALLY wanted to try out a new idea for a salad; but at the same time I'd had a request from one of the guests to make one of my "signature" dishes, beef braised with onions and porter; and I tried to do both.

So to start, I had an Italian-ish salad with several types of peppers (including some with a little heat), cherry tomatoes, onion, and olives, garnished with basil. I then followed it with the beef, which I served with mashed root vegetables.

The problems were 1) the salad was summery and Meditteranean, while the beef dish (Belgian, incidentally) had a much more fall or winter feeling to it, as did the root vegetable mash and 2) the salad had a lot of very aggressive flavors -- garlic, olives, peppers, while the beef was complex but very much more subtle. The complexity was lost after the forward flavors of the salad.

I could have done a braised beef dish fairly successfully after the salad, I think, if I had just changed the flavor profile to something more Mediterranean. I actually have a recipe somewhere for beef braised with tomatoes, onions and olives where the braising liquid is wine-based rather than beer-based. That could have worked well, or at least better than the one I made. No root vegetables in that case though -- noodles would probably be the way to go.

But just to show that I do learn from my mistakes, the last time I made the beef dish (I used short ribs instead of my more usual chuck roast), I started with a cabbage salad with carrot and apple, dressed with a warm caraway-studded vinaigrette and garnished with toasted pecans and crumpled crisp bacon. That worked out very well, because first, cabbage and apple are much more fall/winter, and second, the caraway/bacon flavor combination, while pronounced, was subtler than the olive/garlic/pepper flavor of the other salad. Plus it set up the beer and onion sweetness of the beef dish quite well.

So those are the sorts of things I think about when I'm putting menus together.

And while I've been writing this all, I've thought of two more books with some good information on this sort of thing (they actually concentrate on the flavor and texture elements of one dish at a time, but they're helpful nonetheless). Not sure if they're still in print, but one is Kitchen Conversations by Joyce Goldstein and the other is Ethnic Cuisine by Elizabeth Rozin (an earlier version was called The Flavor Principle Cookbook).

[Nick]

Jaz, You've made two of the most thoughtful posts on cooking since I've been here. I've been sitting here staring at your last post where you came to the cabbage salad and braised beef part. That is such a good idea keeping the winter together. I'm thinking of serving the braised beef on a bed of (or next to) bright winter squash.

Thanks.

[maggiethecat]

Jaz, You've made two of the most thoughtful posts on cooking since I've been here.

Amen. Keep 'em coming, please.