Establishing and Working with Homegrown Sourdough Starter

[DianaM]

Hi Soupcon, 

 

When your starter has reached maximum volume (at least double) it is ready for feeding. So yes, I think you should go on a 12-hour feeding routine at this point. 

 

I typically feed mine every 12 hours, I noticed it gives me the best breads as compared to 24h feedings. 

I use a ratio of 1:4:4 (starter : water : flour) and in the summer even 1:5:5, and my standard is 5 g starter to 20 g water and flour respectively. At this feeding schedule and ratio, it triples in volume in 6-8 hours depending on ambient temp. 

 

I'd wait a few more days before baking with it. It is usually ready for use after cca 7 days, but if you can wait a few more than that, all the better. Use this time to observe your starter's rise so that you have fewer surprises (in terms of rising times) when you start baking with it. 

 

 

 

 

[cakewalk]

46 minutes ago, DianaM said:

I typically feed mine every 12 hours, I noticed it gives me the best breads as compared to 24h feedings. 

I use a ratio of 1:4:4 (starter : water : flour) and in the summer even 1:5:5, and my standard is 5 g starter to 20 g water and flour respectively. At this feeding schedule and ratio, it triples in volume in 6-8 hours depending on ambient temp.

You feed your starter at those ratios every 12 hours? I don't understand the need for that. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by cakewalk
typo (log)

[rustwood]

My digital scale recently went on the fritz.  While I was waiting for a replacement I had to maintain my starter via volume measures instead of by weight.  I then got lazier and switched to doing it by eye.  I remove what seems to be about 2/3 of the starter, dump in a small scoop of flour, then add water until it has the right consistency.  My starter is at least as healthy as it has ever been.  The starter I remove usually gets the same treatment, sits on the counter overnight and is used to make a couple of crumpets in the morning.  They are also as good or better than ever.

 

Now that I have a scale again, I will weigh out the starter if I am going to use it for bread, but I am inclined to stick with the lazy method for maintaining it.  Once again it has occurred to me that people on the frontier who routinely relied on starter almost certainly didn't maintain it by weight and probably didn't spend a lot of time babying it.

[DianaM]

13 hours ago, cakewalk said:

You feed your starter at those ratios every 12 hours? I don't understand the need for that. 

 

 

I do it to maintain an increased rate of fermentation and to minimize the window when the culture is in a deflated, sub-optimal state. During that time, the acids build up and give the starter an alcoholic and acetic punch which I personally dislike (Smithy aptly called it "hoochy"). These flavours also transfer to the finished bread, and neither are flavours I am to achieve in the finished loaf. I'm going for a subtle lactic tang, sweetness and nuttiness from the whole grains, a toasted note from seeds etc. 

 

According to Tartine no.3, "two days before you want to make bread, feed the matured starter twice daily, once in the morning and once in the evening, to increase fermentation activity." My favourite author, Sarah Owens in her excellent Sourdough, advises the same for people who bake bread frequently. Since I bake bread almost every 2 days (yeah I know it's inefficient but I love it!), that works out to a continuous 12h schedule, which is what I do. You could, of course, achieve the same result with a 24h feeding schedule provided you reduce the inoculation rate (so use maybe a 1:8:8 ratio), but I have found that the 12h routine gives me the best flavour. 

 

When I left the country for a week, I did put it in the fridge. And when circumstances prevent me from baking bread for a week, then I feed on a 24h schedule (I never did that in the first few months of tending to my starter, though). Occasionally, I will get lazy too and eyeball a feed or two. But regularly, I do what I described above: 12h, 1:4:4. 

 

As for the frontier, I am sure they had lots to worry about besides the optimal fermentation of their starter (rustwood, you got me researching the stories of frontier settlement doctors, thank you for that! ). We live a life of privilege, and for me, tending to a lump of flour is, luckily, no big feat, even if I do have to employ a scale. 

 

 

 

[cakewalk]

Interesting, thanks for the explanation. I also increase feeding just before I'm about to bake, but for the lulls in between the starter just sits in the fridge and collects hootch. You bake much more often than I do. I like bread that is more, rather than less, tangy, so frequent feedings wouldn't give me that. I never heard of Sarah Owens, so thanks for that reference, I just might break my vow of No More Cookbooks! (I have broken it so many times already, what's once more?)

 

[Soupcon]

Thankyou DianaM and cakewalk so much.

I divided the starter into two batches last night and fed them and put one in the fridge and left one out on the counter.  The one in the fridge is in hibernation as I expected. The one on the counter was doubled in bulk by this morning so it looks like I have made a good starter. Now I will feed it every 8 to 12 hours for a few days and then bake with it. I will keep the one in the fridge in hibernation for a while and then revive it, stablise it and then bake with it. BTY the starter is whole wheat. My goal is actually to learn how to and make my own starters, learn how to bake with them and then purchase Red Fife in bulk for baking bread as I love sourdough whole wheat bread. Thanks again for your advice and support.

 

[Smithy]

@Soupcon, how is it going?  I doubt I'm the only one interested in updates.

 

I refreshed my starter yesterday.  After a few hours it had bubbles dispersed through the entire mix.  I've learned to interpret this as a sign of a healthy, lively starter.

 

 

 

[Soupcon]

Updates? Sure. I am glad you asked.

The one on the counter smelled of nail polish remover. I can't for the life of me figure out what would cause so it must be some strange bacteria from somewhere.... either in the flour or picked up in the house. I have just pitched it as I can's seem to get the smell to go away even after a few refreshments.

The one in the fridge is still in hibernation. I am not sure what to do with that one. Any suggestions?

[Smithy]

Hmm, I don't have any good ideas for what caused that, much less how to avoid it.  Maybe you should try feeding the refrigerated starter on a different flour? Do everything else the same, so you're only changing one variable (as far as you know). Keep in mind that the amount of starter in a loaf is relatively small; starter with all-purpose flour won't much dilute the purity of a whole-wheat loaf.  Right now you're trying to work out why one half of the batch went off, and trying to keep the other half healthy.

[Soupcon]

I am not sure the same bacteria might not also be in the refrigerated starter as well as they both came from the same base. I know the hazard of whole wheat sourdough is that they have a tendency to become tooo sour but I don't think it is that. OTOH it may just be that. I am not sure what an all whole wheat starter should smell like. Any ideas. I know that a starter made with unbleached bread flour should not smell like nail polish remover but I am not sure what a whole wheat starter should smell like. Perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew and should back up and start life again in the sourdough world at least with an unbleached white bread flour base. Just navel gazing at the minute. 

[cakewalk]

17 minutes ago, Soupcon said:

Updates? Sure. I am glad you asked.

The one on the counter smelled of nail polish remover. I can't for the life of me figure out what would cause so it must be some strange bacteria from somewhere.... either in the flour or picked up in the house. I have just pitched it as I can's seem to get the smell to go away even after a few refreshments.

The one in the fridge is still in hibernation. I am not sure what to do with that one. Any suggestions?

https://sourdough.com/forum/noob-my-starter-smells-nail-polish-remover

 

That's a common problem. If you haven't thrown it out yet, try building it up again with a very small amount of the starter. 

[Smithy]

Nice site, @cakewalk.  Thanks for the link!

[Soupcon]

20 minutes ago, Smithy said:

Hmm, I don't have any good ideas for what caused that, much less how to avoid it.  Maybe you should try feeding the refrigerated starter on a different flour? Do everything else the same, so you're only changing one variable (as far as you know). Keep in mind that the amount of starter in a loaf is relatively small; starter with all-purpose flour won't much dilute the purity of a whole-wheat loaf.  Right now you're trying to work out why one half of the batch went off, and trying to keep the other half healthy.

 

Thank you for reminding me that I don't need a large amount of starter to make a loaf of bread. Bingo. You are right. I will keep the starter in the fridge going and see what happens with that starter AND start a new one with whole wheat and then feed it with unbleached white when it (assumption here) becomes active.

[paulraphael]

8 hours ago, Soupcon said:

I am not sure the same bacteria might not also be in the refrigerated starter as well as they both came from the same base. I know the hazard of whole wheat sourdough is that they have a tendency to become tooo sour but I don't think it is that. OTOH it may just be that. I am not sure what an all whole wheat starter should smell like. Any ideas. I know that a starter made with unbleached bread flour should not smell like nail polish remover but I am not sure what a whole wheat starter should smell like. Perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew and should back up and start life again in the sourdough world at least with an unbleached white bread flour base. Just navel gazing at the minute. 

 

Sounds like Clostridium acetobutylicum. It eats starch and makes acetone. I did a quick search and found this discussion ... sounds like you're not alone, and it's not that big a deal ... that bacterium can't tolerate an acidic environment. No personal experience here, though.

 

[Soupcon]

11 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

Sounds like Clostridium acetobutylicum. It eats starch and makes acetone. I did a quick search and found this discussion ... sounds like you're not alone, and it's not that big a deal ... that bacterium can't tolerate an acidic environment. No personal experience here, though.

 

 

 

Thank you. Great reference. I am well aware of Clostridium as I was an RN in a former life but not it's tendency to produce acetone in sourdough starters if given the opportunity and wrt the acid forming bacteria had also last summer been trying to make vinegar from a cider vinegar containing a mother; so acid forming bacteria might just be floating around in my kitchen still. Granted the smell of acetone was not that strong but nonetheless I knew it was there and should not have been. So perhaps the refrigerated starter is not the write off I was afraid it might be and perhaps should be taken out of its cold sleep and revived to see what I can do with it. Thanks again.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Soupcon
correction (log)

[Soupcon]

Well, I started a new starter with whole wheat on Sat. It sat dormant for 2 days before it began to grow. I fed it with whole wheat to see what would happen. Nothing happened again until the 2nd day when it doubled in bulk. I refreshed it again this afternoon with whole wheat and it had doubled in bulk in 8 hours which is now as I write. As I have done more reading on the site suggested by @paulraphael and now know that whole wheat starters at the beginning are not such a good idea  until they are stable so I am going to see if I can switch it over to an AP unbleached flour sourdough starter by mixing in 30% AP in tonight's feed and see what has happened with it when I wake up tomorrow. BTW I have not found any smell of acetone in this starter so I hope the first go at this process was a one off and  is also why I am switching over to unbleached AP to decrease the tendency for the development of lots of acid. It does at the moment smell sour however. 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Soupcon
grammar (log)

[paulraphael]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:01 AM, Soupcon said:

Thank you. Great reference. I am well aware of Clostridium as I was an RN in a former life but not it's tendency to produce acetone in sourdough starters if given the opportunity ...

 

There are bajillions of different clostridium bacteria, including the pathogens that would have concerned you as an RN. This acetone-making one sounds like it's not too common. But like most of the bacteria in starters, good and bad, it may have just been resident in the wheat, waiting for the right conditions.

[cakewalk]

9 hours ago, Soupcon said:

Well, I started a new starter with whole wheat on Sat. It sat dormant for 2 days before it began to grow. I fed it with whole wheat to see what would happen. Nothing happened again until the 2nd day when it doubled in bulk. I refreshed it again this afternoon with whole wheat and it had doubled in bulk in 8 hours which is now as I write. As I have done more reading on the site suggested by @paulraphael and now know that whole wheat starters at the beginning are not such a good idea  until they are stable so I am going to see if I can switch it over to an AP unbleached flour sourdough starter by mixing in 30% AP in tonight's feed and see what has happened with it when I wake up tomorrow. BTW I have not found any smell of acetone in this starter so I hope the first go at this process was a one off and  is also why I am switching over to unbleached AP to decrease the tendency for the development of lots of acid. It does at the moment smell sour however. 

 

 

This is where I would split the starter in half. The WW starter seems to be doing well. Don't mess with success! I would keep half as-is and keep feeding it as you were doing. Experiment with the other half. 

[Soupcon]

3 hours ago, cakewalk said:

This is where I would split the starter in half. The WW starter seems to be doing well. Don't mess with success! I would keep half as-is and keep feeding it as you were doing. Experiment with the other half. 

 

Ahhh. Too late. I refreshed it last night with 1 part AP:2 parts ww: 3 parts H2O;3 parts starter and this morning it had doubled in bulk again so I refreshed with 2 ap:1 ww:3 H2O:3 starter and will see what happens... No smell of acetone again but just sour starter. Yipppppeeeee. So we will see.

[Soupcon]

Thankyou @DianaM for the post on you favourite sourdough author, Sarah Owens. I am having such a wonderful time reading her book and getting lots of ideas. 

My sourdough ww starter that I switched over to ap flour is still fermenting away but not quite at the same rate as before. So I am nursing it along. I did start at the same time one other ww starter which took a long time to ferment and now is going gangbusters. I have kept this one as ww. I do not smell acetone in either starter thankfully (hoping I don't jinx myself). When either starter passes the floatation test I will bake. I have been trying (I know you live in Ontario somewhere as do I) to locate organic unbleached bread flour and am having not much luck. Is sifted ww flour a reasonable substitute for unbleached bread flour do you think? 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Soupcon
wording (log)

[ElsieD]

Inspired by all this chatter about sourdough, I decided to try making a starter.  Thursday night I mixed together 50 grams each of flour and water.  Tonight there was definitely some action as it had risen and there were bubbles.  I fed it another 50 grams each of water and flour and it's looking good.  The last several times I tried to make a starter it didn't work so I am hoping this one will.  I was successful once and loved the bread and the pancakes - so we'll see what happens.

[DianaM]

16 hours ago, Soupcon said:

I have been trying (I know you live in Ontario somewhere as do I) to locate organic unbleached bread flour and am having not much luck. Is sifted ww flour a reasonable substitute for unbleached bread flour do you think? 

 

 

My favourite flours come from 1847 Stone Milling. They freshly mill (on a stone mill from 1847) organic grains that they grow themselves, the flour is not bleached nor fortified. The flour is excellent, you just have to account for the fact that it's fresh and behaves a bit differently than even the ww you buy in the store. I think you'd love their Daily Bread flour - it is not labelled as whole wheat, but it is as dark as any ww (milled from red wheat) I've seen. I always buy that, their ww, and also the Daily Grind (their "AP" flour) - and this too is pretty dark. I used their kamut flour and it was amazing, but they're out. 

 

Arva Flour Mills in London, ON is also making fresh flours (including ww), but theirs are not organic. 

I also tried La Milanaise flours from Bakers & Us (wholesalers) but they came in 20lb bags and honestly, I was not impressed with the flour. 

 

Although I absolutely love the flavour or whole grains, I found that for myself and my family, I've had the best results when I added a percentage of AP flour (our Canadian AP is excellent, imo) to help with "lift" and to tame the "wholegrain-iness" a bit, but you of course will decide where you want to go with your recipes. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. 

 

I hope this is not too OT for this thread, and if it is - oops! 

 

 

 

 

[ElsieD]

@Soupcon If you are near Ottawa you could try Castor River Farm in Metcalfe or Watson's Mill in Manotick.

[ElsieD]

My starter was going like gangbusters yesterday and I fed it for the first time.  It is now not lively at all but since there are lots of tiny bubbles I'll just feed it again this afternoon and see what happens.

[Soupcon]

Update and need help I think.

Here is a picture of my ww sourdough starter which is the one I last talked about and has been in production for not quite 2 weeks (I think). Anyway it looks great as the photo shows but sinks like a stone in the float test. Me no understand. I have had to switch ww flours in the last 2 days and will return to the original brand when it is restocked (never dreamed they would run out of the original... who knew). The starter is now very very concentrated and almost dough like but still in a 1:1:1 ratio of starter/flour/water. So what is the problem... hydration? Too much bran?