Smoker + Sous Vide - general theory

[kitae]

(it looks like post may be being truncated because I'm a new member...here is a public google doc with my full question!) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UOX8o7S6VH3m7nroSL_rRyy_lJQnL85cTK30M9-_JUM/edit?usp=sharing

 

SHORT VERSION: what is the minimum temperature to smoke chicken, beef, pork to impart smoker flavor (my understanding is this requires rendering fat which would be 130-140 but that seems high). How does duration figure into smoking and how does temperature impact duration?

Edited August 30, 2014 by kitae (log)

[gfweb]

You can cold smoke for flavor and then cook by any means. Fat or rendering fat isn't necessary for smoke absorption.

 

  I prefer cold smoking because it is easier to control temp and doneness if you cook by sous vide after smoking.

[FeChef]

temperature only impacts smoke ring formation. All meats will continue to absorb smoke flavor no matter what temperature. Lower temps may absorb more and at a faster rate but in my experience, even meat pre cooked to temps of 155F still absorb smoke flavor. just more subtle (which i prefer subtle anyway)

 

If your going to smoke first then sous vide I would either cold smoke no more then 2 hours at temps below 70F or smoke till reaching pastuerization temps.

[rotuts]

well, buried deep in the Sb thread I did this :   not that I knew what I was doing, but it came out this way:

 

I had some SV desalted corned beef.   a lot.

 

I then took them out of the bag   ( 140 or 145 lets say )

 

then put them on the weber w a temp of 130 w smoke.  I picked that temp to not induce more cooking of the 

 

C.B.'s

 

about 2 hours.   finest smoked corned beef ive ever had.

[FeChef]

well, buried deep in the Sb thread I did this :   not that I knew what I was doing, but it came out this way:

 

I had some SV desalted corned beef.   a lot.

 

I then took them out of the bag   ( 140 or 145 lets say )

 

then put them on the weber w a temp of 130 w smoke.  I picked that temp to not induce more cooking of the 

 

C.B.'s

 

about 2 hours.   finest smoked corned beef ive ever had.

I recently did pastrami like this. I got some CB point cuts for 0.99/lb.

 

I soaked them for 2 days changing out the water every 12 hours.

I sous vide them @ 132F for 48 hours.

Chilled overnight.

rubbed them with molasses,then a dry rub of black pepper and corriander.

smoked till internal reached 155F.

 

Best damn pastrami ive ever tasted and would prefer it over smoked brisket any day.

 

Molasses really gave it a nice crust.

[slkinsey]

The temperature of the smoke will certainly impact the flavor imparted by the smoke, because various constituent gasses will precipitate out at different temperatures and once they are in liquid grim they will not permeate the meat.

[Martin Fisher]

SHORT VERSION: what is the minimum temperature to smoke chicken, beef, pork to impart smoker flavor (my understanding is this requires rendering fat which would be 130-140 but that seems high). How does duration figure into smoking and how does temperature impact duration?

 

Cold smoke (less than 85 depress F) permeates better but often produces an initial assertive harshness that mellows and melds with rest. In general, it takes more time to develop flavor and color at lower temperatures.

 

Depending on what you're smoking, warm or hot smoke can suck big time because it can lead to a nasty warmed-over flavor.

Edited August 31, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[gfweb]

Its my impression that using wet wood ie the standard soaked chip method , leads to an acrid flavor especially with cold smoking.

I've switched to well dried wood and find the result more appealing

Edited August 31, 2014 by gfweb (log)

[Martin Fisher]

Dry wood is definitely the way to go.

[gfweb]

SHORT VERSION: what is the minimum temperature to smoke chicken, beef, pork to impart smoker flavor (my understanding is this requires rendering fat which would be 130-140 but that seems high). How does duration figure into smoking and how does temperature impact duration?

Cold smoke (less than 85 depress F) permeates better but often produces an initial assertive harshness that mellows and melds with rest. In general, it takes more time to develop flavor and color at lower temperatures.

Depending on what you're smoking, warm or hot smoke can suck big time because it can lead to a nasty warmed-over flavor.

Interesting links. When I think of cold smoking it isn't the long process that they describe...over days ...and with drying as a goal. As I practice it, it ta kes less than an hour ...usually 30 mjn and uses dense smoke. I put the meat in chilled and then cook it immediately.

Edited August 31, 2014 by gfweb (log)

[paulraphael]

It's important to separate the temperature of the wood from the temperature of the smoke. You always want the wood smoldering at a hight temp ... 300 to 400°C. Lower than this and you produce fewer of the good flavored phenols and instead produce acrid-tasting compounds (acetic acid and formic acid, among others). 

 

Temperature of the smoke is controlled by how much it's allowed to cool on the way to way to the food. This very much affects the flavor; heavier, less volatile compounds will condense from their gaseous form at lower temperatures, and will no longer be able to penetrate the food. This is why in cold-smoked foods you won't get vanilla and clove notes as strongly as you do in hot-smoked foods. The phenols responsible for those flavors and big and heavy and drop out of gaseous form at cold-smoking temperatures.

 

A lot of the art of smoking lies in controlling the humidity. Smoke from smoldering wood is very dry, and will tend to quickly dry out the food's surface. This prevents it from absorbing the important gaseous compounds. But if humidity is too high, the surface of the food will actually be wet, which results in the compounds being absorbed by the water layer and dripping off. The ideal humidity level is one that leads to moist and tacky surface. It's very hard to measure the humidity in a smoker with any reliability, so it usually has to be done by feel. Unless you have one of these.

 

People are tempted to increase humidity by throwing water on the coals, but this is always a bad idea. It drops the temperature of the wood down into the bad-tasting range. Humidity needs to be added separately from the fire. Pans of water, or steam injection, etc.

[Syzygies]

Over in various ceramic cooker forums (I frequent http://komodokamado.com/forum/) we worry a lot about smoke quality. There are two camps; the one I'm in likes subtle smoke, required that the wood not actually burn. For years I've been using a "smoke pot" consisting of a two quart cast iron Dutch oven with three 1/8" holes drilled in the bottom. I fill it with wood chips and/or chunks, and seal the lid with flour paste (as one would do in North Africa with an ill-fitting couscous pot). I then set this pot on the charcoal, and light the charcoal underneath the pot with a propane wood burner. I worked this out after many experiments, and various people have adopted this exact protocol. This sounds like way too much wood, but it isn't with this approach. An expensive variation is to buy a stainless steel pipe threaded at both ends, and caps, and drill similar holes. Why SS? Before getting novel with metals around fire, understand the science. Various compound metals turn out to be toxic.

 

I recently bought an entry level chamber vacuum machine (the VacMaster VP115) which threw me further into sous vide cooking than I've gotten before. (I was a holdout, and those years are now gone. Don't wait, clamp machines aren't the same, pick a price point and do it!)

 

It is very clear that flavors are naked and clean with sous vide, and a little goes a long ways. I'm reminded of cold extraction coffee, where there is no place to hide, and most coffee beans turn out undrinkable. Here, to smoke then sous vide, I'd certainly use something like my smoke pot rather than open wood.

 

If one doesn't care about smoke rings, then experiment with smoked fats in the sous vide packet. One can collect already smoked fats, grind and render them sous vide for later use, or one can directly smoke e.g lard or butter or duck fat for later use. Again, the effect can be very pronounced, so go very easy. Think Moroccan smen, fermented not smoked, but they never use much.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Syzygies (log)

[weedy]

using the Smoking Gun after sous vide works well for me... I don't know that it would be as lasting an effect, but I serve immediately, and there's nothing left!