Chinese Eats at Home (Part 2)

[C. sapidus]

I had never “velveted” chicken before, and perhaps I did it wrong but I prefer the taste and texture of chicken that has been seared in a hot wok.

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Bruce, did you velvet in water or oil?

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Susan, I velveted in oil but did not monitor temperature. It seemed to take about the specified 20 seconds for the chicken to turn 90 percent white, so the temperature was probably in the ballpark.

Sheetz: Thanks for the tip.

[sheetz]

I haven't felt like doing too much cooking the last few days, as we're finally digging out from underneath 17 inches of snow. The hot and sour soup I made tonight really hit the spot and was just what I needed.

[Dejah]

We were talking about "velveting" before. Passing the meat thru' oil or water is not velveting. That's blanching. The marinating with oil and cornstarch is velveting. This produces a velvet texture to the meat - thus the term velveting.

I can't understand where this definition of velveting thru' oil/water came from.

Sheetz is correct in saying that dark meat doesn't need this step, but velveting breast meat will keep it from having a dry and rough texture.

Jasmine rice is not considered trendy. The Chinese community here in Brandon all prefer it. Most restaurants still use unscented rice as it is cheaper.

[sheetz]

We were talking about "velveting" before. Passing the meat thru' oil or water is not velveting. That's blanching. The marinating with oil and cornstarch is velveting. This produces a velvet texture to the meat - thus the term velveting.

I can't understand where this definition of velveting thru' oil/water came from.

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That's what Barbara Tropp calls it in Modern Art of Chinese Cooking.

[Dejah]

We were talking about "velveting" before. Passing the meat thru' oil or water is not velveting. That's blanching. The marinating with oil and cornstarch is velveting. This produces a velvet texture to the meat - thus the term velveting.

I can't understand where this definition of velveting thru' oil/water came from.

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That's what Barbara Tropp calls it in Modern Art of Chinese Cooking.

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The Chinese elders will beg to differ.

ETA: Might fine looking hot'n'sour soup, sheetz!

Edited February 16, 2007 by Dejah (log)

[Ben Hong]

That's what Barbara Tropp calls it in Modern Art of Chinese Cooking.

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That's NOT what I would call it. Between Dejah and I, I think that we spent enough time over a wok to know the difference.

Oil blanching is rarely, if ever, done with veggies. Water blanching is almost never done with meat. One of the reasons for oil blanching (guo yu pass through oil) is to set and seal the juices in the meat. The main reason for water blanching veggies is to cut down on wok (cooking) time.

Velveting is a different process altogether.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Ben Hong (log)

[hzrt8w]

To avoid confusion perhaps we can refer to that process as gouyu'ing?

[C. sapidus]

Whoa, sorry, I did not mean to cause an argument, but now I am very curious. Is there a word (or words) in English (or Chinese, for that matter) for the following process?

Make a marinade by blending egg white, rice wine, salt, and cornstarch.

Cut chicken into thin squares and marinate for at least 6 hours.

Immerse the chicken for about 20 seconds in 275 F (135 C) oil.

If answering the question involves heated argument, I am happy to call it “that thing where you marinate the meat in cornstarch and maybe some other stuff and then deep-fry it briefly in cool oil” (although that description seems a bit unwieldy).

Ah Leung: How would you translate "gouyu'ing"?

[Dejah]

That's what Barbara Tropp calls it in Modern Art of Chinese Cooking.

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That's NOT what I would call it. Between Dejah and I, I think that we spent enough time over a wok to know the difference.

Oil blanching is rarely, if ever, done with veggies. Water blanching is almost never done with meat. One of the reasons for oil blanching (guo yu pass through oil) is to set and seal the juices in the meat. The main reason for water blanching veggies is to cut down on wok (cooking) time.

Velveting is a different process altogether.

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Whoa, sorry, I did not mean to cause an argument, but now I am very curious. Is there a word (or words) in English (or Chinese, for that matter) for the following process?

Make a marinade by blending egg white, rice wine, salt, and cornstarch.

Cut chicken into thin squares and marinate for at least 6 hours.

Immerse the chicken for about 20 seconds in 275 F (135 C) oil.

If answering the question involves heated argument, I am happy to call it “that thing where you marinate the meat in cornstarch and maybe some other stuff and then deep-fry it briefly in cool oil” (although that description seems a bit unwieldy).

Ah Leung: How would you translate "gouyu'ing"?

This post looks unwieldy, never mind the explanation!

Bruce, we're not arguing - we Chinese just get excited and louder as we "discuss" something. That's why it's always so dang noisy in Chinese restaurants!

The explanation is exactly as Ben Sook said in his posts. You'll just have to learn Chinese and say "guo yu". To marinate is to "yeup" in Toisanese or "yeep" in Cantonese.

I have never yeup thin pieces of meat for 6 hours though. When you cut up the meat into thin pieces, much of the connective elements that make meat tough will be "disconnected", so it will not require long period of yeuping (can I add "ing" to that?). In a large piece of meat several inches thick, then you'd need to marinate for maybe 6 hours - to "tenderize" and for the flavours to penetrate throughout. Some cuts, tho', is best left to braising.

[sheetz]

Well, for better or worse, Tropp's term, "velveting," has become widely used as the de facto English name for "guo yiu," which literally translates as "passing through oil." "Oil blanching" is a good descriptive term that gets the general idea across, but until someone else writes a more authoritative book on Chinese cooking techniques Tropp's name will continue to be used.

I normally marinate my sliced meats overnight since it's generally more convenient for me to do the prepping the night before, and I'm not a big fan of using egg whites as that can get a bit messy during the cooking. Instead I often use a pinch of baking soda which has basically the same effect as the egg whites on the meat.

I never "velvet" meats in water, but I've heard some cooks will do it with certain types of seafood. The only vegetable I ever cook in oil before stir-frying is eggplant, but that's at a higher temperature and really more like deep frying.

[Gastro888]

Excuse my ignorance but why is Tropp an authority on Chinese cooking? Can someone fill me in, please?

[sheetz]

Excuse my ignorance but why is Tropp an authority on Chinese cooking?  Can someone fill me in, please?

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Most chinese cookbooks are simply recipe compilations but her Modern Art of Chinese Cooking is one of the only Chinese cookbooks that goes into great detail on actual Chinese cooking techniques.

Edited February 16, 2007 by sheetz (log)

[Gastro888]

Oh, interesting. I must check this book out. I'm curious to know more. Thanks!

PS: I can't wait to see my folks for CNY! We're doing dim sum! Yay!!!

[Ben Hong]

but until someone else writes a more authoritative book on Chinese cooking techniques Tropp's name will continue to be used.

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There is a plethora of Chinese cookbooks out there that describe the "velveting" techniques, some in more detail than others. If Tropp has misled you in calling guo yu velveting, then she is dead WRONG

Edited February 16, 2007 by Ben Hong (log)

[SuzySushi]

To clarify the Barbara Tropp/velveting argument, I have in front of me the first edition of The Modern Art of Chinese Cooking. Her first reference (and the major discussion) of "velveting" is on page 137, in a recipe for "Hoisin Explosion Chicken" (note: she also gives the name of this dish in Chinese characters, but I can't read them or type them on my computer).

She writes:

Blanching cut and specially marinated chicken in oil or water prior to stir-frying is a technique common to Chinese restaurant kitchens. The 20-second bath tenderizes the chicken remarkably, hence the process has been dubbed "velveting" in English...

Oil-velveted chicken is firm and plush; water-velveted chicken is soft and bouncy. The oil texture has great character, while the water process is attractively easy and clean. Choose the one that suits you best.

Her description and the use of the term "velveting" in quotes leads me to believe she knew very well the difference between the methods and terminology in Chinese (she was a China scholar before she became a chef), but chose to adopt this term in English as an easy shorthand for Western readers.

[edited to correct spelling]

Edited February 17, 2007 by SuzySushi (log)

[hzrt8w]

Now I got really confused. Several pages ago, I used the term "velveting" and it was pointed out this is not the same as running through hot oil. Then the explanations above seemed to lead to that they are the same.

I do know what I talked about is "guo yu" in Chinese/Cantonese. The process is the same as what's described by Bruce. Whether this is "velveting", I don't know any more.

[sheetz]

LOL Clearly the answer to all our problems is to use Chinese names for everything. It would also solve the taro/yam/wootau confusion we had a little while ago.

Edited February 17, 2007 by sheetz (log)

[Majra]

I have not posted here in the Chinese forum for a while, mainly because it's a struggle for me to juggle the wok and the camera and the BTUs all at once. Then, by the time I come in from cooking outside, I am frazzled and my family wants to eat already! Seriously, I need to expand my Chinese cooking repertoire to include techniques other than stir-frying. Three dishes, or sometimes even two, are hard for me to do a-la-minute.

Anyway...back to dinner. Tonight I made two great dishes from Fuchsia Dunlop's Land of Plenty. I did a riff on her Fish Braised in Chili Bean Sauce (dou ban xian yu). I used filets of orange roughy that were in my freezer, and cut them into slices. I skipped the recipe's initial call for frying the skin since my fish didn't have any; instead I made the sauce and slipped the fish in it to simmer. And, since we were having an unexpected extra guest join us, I added a package of firm tofu, cubed. This fish and tofu medley in a spicy sauce was delicious!

I also made the dry-braised green beans. I have made her vegetarian version several times, but this was the first occasion that I made the version with pork. It was excellent.

I can't remember the last time that I've had such success with a single cookbook. Her new Hunan cookbook, on the other hand, remains unused after 3 weeks in my possession. I'm having some weird block about it. Has anyone tried any recipes from this book yet?

[Dejah]

I can't wrap my head around Barbara Tropp's explanation that the 20-second blanching was a technique common to Chinese kitchens. The process is not practical or efficient in kitchens using 24" woks.

To this "lau sieu - old hand", it will always be "gau yu" and velveting is the marinating process. But then, I never "gau yu" anything!

I guess Ms. Tropp and I will agree to disagree.

[sheetz]

I can't wrap my head around Barbara Tropp's explanation that the 20-second blanching was a technique common to Chinese kitchens. The process is not practical or efficient in kitchens using 24" woks.

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When I've seen chefs on TV do it they use big steel strainers like this one:

http://www.wokshop.com/HTML/products/acces..._perfscoop.html

The strainer is dipped in the oil and then the meat is placed on top and stirred around for a few seconds, then lifted out using the strainer.

[Dejah]

I can't wrap my head around Barbara Tropp's explanation that the 20-second blanching was a technique common to Chinese kitchens. The process is not practical or efficient in kitchens using 24" woks.

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When I've seen chefs on TV do it they use big steel strainers like this one:

http://www.wokshop.com/HTML/products/acces..._perfscoop.html

The strainer is dipped in the oil and then the meat is placed on top and stirred around for a few seconds, then lifted out using the strainer.

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Chefs on TV and "cooks" in big bustling restaurants are two different things.

GASTRO Mui: Please ask your parents if they "gau yu" all their meat in their restaurant.

Ok. This is my last post on this topic. Darn you Bruce! I'm not saying another word - and you guys have no idea how hard that's going to be!

[C. sapidus]

This fascinating discussion leaves me more confused than ever. Let me see if I can pick out a few points of general agreement:

1) “Guo yu”, “guo yiu”, “guo yau”, "gau yu" or “zhou yau” (in various Chinese dialects) literally translates to “passing through oil”, and can also be described as “oil blanching.”

2) The material to be, um, processed is usually marinated in a cornstarch mixture before passing through oil.

The English term “velveting” seems to be ambiguous, referring to 1) or 2), or perhaps both. Since I don’t speak Chinese, I have no opinion whatsoever. It would make my life easier if the English terminology was consistent. Maybe I’ll just stick to simple stir-fries and avoid the issue altogether.

Doesn’t “chow” mean stir-fry in Chinese? (sorry, Dejah)

Her new Hunan cookbook, on the other hand, remains unused after 3 weeks in my possession.  I'm having some weird block about it.  Has anyone tried any recipes from this book yet?

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Majra: I have also been delighted with Land of Plenty, so I am very interested in Ms. Dunlop’s Hunan cookbook. Do you have any idea why you are “blocked”? Are the recipes unfamiliar, uninspiring, or too complicated?

[hzrt8w]

I can't wrap my head around Barbara Tropp's explanation that the 20-second blanching was a technique common to Chinese kitchens. The process is not practical or efficient in kitchens using 24" woks.

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When I've seen chefs on TV do it they use big steel strainers like this one:

http://www.wokshop.com/HTML/products/acces..._perfscoop.html

The strainer is dipped in the oil and then the meat is placed on top and stirred around for a few seconds, then lifted out using the strainer.

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Chefs on TV and "cooks" in big bustling restaurants are two different things.

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I had worked in 7 different Chinese restaurants in San Diego. The chefs in the different kitchens were quite uniformly using the same method. The marinated meats (chicken, beef, shrimp, etc.) were run through a wok-ful of hot oil - free and clear - and then scooped up using type of the strainers shown in that picture. Usually a big Chinese ladle is used to separate the meats so they won't stick together. In the "chop suey" type restaurants, they used the professional size SS spatula.

[hzrt8w]

...

2) The material to be, um, processed is usually marinated in a cornstarch mixture before passing through oil.

...

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Well... different types of meats are marinated differently. From what I have observed:

Chicken: corn starch, oil, egg white typically

Shrimp/scallop/fish (filet): corn starch, oil, salt (?) typically (and never soy sauce)

Beef/pork: soy, oil, corn starch, baking soda, white pepper (some do) typically

Crab/lobster/oyster/clam: none

Some may use oyster sauce to marinate beef. In restaurants they all use baking soda, borox or some kind of tenderizer to treat the meat. You can taste the difference - extra soft texture.

If you use baking soda to treat the shrimp, they will become the "glass shrimp" (the term from Chinese) - extra soft and crunchy but the shrimp taste has become bland.

[hzrt8w]

I have never yeup thin pieces of meat for 6 hours though. When you cut up the meat into thin pieces, much of the connective elements that make meat tough will be "disconnected", so it will not require long period of yeuping (can I add "ing" to that?). ...

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?????

Many cooks in Chinese restaurants marinate meats only once a day. They keep the meats in the refrigerated counters until cooking time. The marination process would inadvertantly have taken more than 6 hours. Sometimes overnight (or longer).