HOW DETAILED SHOULD A RECIPE BE?

[Anna N]

"The restaurateur Prue Leith once watched a wretched cookery-school pupil(male, of course) deconstruct the following first line of a recipe:"Sepparate the eggs". For a thoughtful while he pondered the two eggs placed in front of him, before carefully moving one a few inches to his left and the other a few inches to his right. Satisfied, he went on to the second line of instruction" - Julian Barnes "The Land Without Brussels Sprouts"

I had a really good laugh over this and then I stopped...... I tried hard to imagine my hubby, The Dane, following a recipe and then it didn't seem quite so funny. I can just imagine him doing the same thing.

It's not a put down - he's a wonderful, warm, funny guy, but he's so totally lost in the kitchen that I bet it has never occurred to him that an egg has two parts - a yolk and a white and that they can be separated!

Thanks, I needed a laugh on this dull, dreary Sunday afternoon.

[chefette]

I think part of the problem is that recipes are produced by many different types of authors and cooks under different circumstances for different reasons/audiences. When we get our hands on them we expect or wish for greater standardization.

I really see the difference in recipes in the high end pastry books imported from Europe (some trasnlated, some not)

They call granulated sugar more than one name in the same recipe (is it different?) they tell you to make something 'in the usual way' - that's always helpful Most of the time they sucker a beginner into something that looks cool and the recipe doesn't look too long or complex at first then you see that it consists of references to other recipes on other pages throughout the book and when you go to those pages they reference still others so your simple recipe is blasted out of the sky.

I think that there are also alot of books out there just documenting a chef's combinations and that without a recipe writer in between you and the chef it makes the whole process potentially inefficient and cumbersome.

For example - in the Pastry forum, I discussed my intent to make a recipe featured in one of Michel Bras' books on New Year's Day. I ended up spending the day out and haven't gotten to the dessert yet, but did do my shopping so have the basic Mise en place ready to go. To make it easier to follow and prevent my nice expensive book from flying caramel and such in the kitchen I typed up the recipe on my computer so I could have a handy print.

Reviewing the steps in his recipe (which could not possibly be less efficient or wasteful - IMHO) I realized that this was documentation of something that a chef did when he wanted to create something special and had the liberty to walk into a nicely stocked pastry pantry and grab up things like banana butter sablee, nogatine, demerara sugar macaroons. Because of the methodology used in the book, they simply go back and get the recipes for every item that got tossed into the mixer.

For a dessert which consists of a mousse and a nogatine tuile you have two days of work making then grinding up and combining 6 recipes. And the instructions on many of them are very inadequate - for instance they say chop this up with a cleaver but looking at the photos I have to conclude that they are really amazing choppers or that they put it in the food processor and pulverized it.

So, I am thinking about the final product and how I can rethink the recipe to come up with the same thing in 2 or three recipes in a couple of hours instead of 6 over two days.

I don't think that you would really want the standardization and inflexibility of a single point of view though. That would really take the charm and originality out of many recipes. There certainly are many sources that provide the types of information about the dish itself, the step by step documentation of processes, and information on storage. If that's what you want at this point in your cooking you should seek those out and use them, but eventually if you start getting more comfortable in the kitchen you will probably be interested in the more expansive, creative, higher level freeform style recipes.

Ultimately I think you start to look at recipes as concepts or suggestions and come up with your own processes.

[Anna N]

I don't envision the market basket thing being any sort of competition--it would be great if people wanted to help each other out via PM.  Let me give the idea some thought (and by all means keep the suggestions coming), and let's give it a try next month.  I love winter cooking above all others anyway. 

It's now "next month" and wondered if you've had time to give this idea any further thought?

[mamster]

Glad you asked. I have an announcement almost ready to go, and I'll try to post it tonight. I wanted to wait until everyone had recovered from the holiday season.

[Anna N]

Glad you asked.  I have an announcement almost ready to go, and I'll try to post it tonight.  I wanted to wait until everyone had recovered from the holiday season.

Right on! Glad to hear it. Am excited to see what you have come up with! Thanks

[mamster]

FYI, this is coming tomorrow morning at the latest.

[maggiethecat]

I've been meaning to post here for awhile, but it took me a few days to locate "Amish Cooking" from Pathway books. The inscription on the flyleaf reminds me that my daughter bought it on a field trip to an Amish settlement in 1991.

Talk about no detail! In its entirety:

Dried Beef for 20 pounds

4 1/2 gal. water

salt enough to carry an egg

1 oz. saltpetre

20 lbs. beef

2 lbs. brown sugar

Put weight on top to keep meat in brine. For larger pieces, soak 60 hours, small pieces for 48 hours. Smoke.

Very typical of the style. But it has a great bean soup recipe or two.

Plus:How to make cheese. Or Bronchial Salve. Or , a favorite, hints like:

"Have your pins good and warm before hanging out wash in the winter. It keeps the hands warm."

No pictures, no real directions. Not a learn-to-cook-from book. But charm. Even Child Care Hints. "To save time, sprinkle powder on the baby's diapers when you fold them"

[mamster]

Okay, take it away.

[mamster]

I saw this in the book Baking in America, by Greg Patent, and had to quote it for this thread.

A recipe for Pennsylvania Rusk from Godey's Lady's Book Receipts and Household Hints of 1870 comes with a rather severe admonishment: "If you do not have the very nicest of rusks after trying this receipt, you must try it over again, as it will certainly be your own fault."

They don't write them like that anymore.

[JAZ]

I saw this in the book Baking in America, by Greg Patent, and had to quote it for this thread.

A recipe for Pennsylvania Rusk from Godey's Lady's Book Receipts and Household Hints of 1870 comes with a rather severe admonishment:  "If you do not have the very nicest of rusks after trying this receipt, you must try it over again, as it will certainly be your own fault."

They don't write them like that anymore.

Reminds me of Julia Child and Simone Beck's comment in Mastering the Art of French Cooking about making hollandaise sauce in a blender:

"If you are used to handmade hollandaise, you may find the blender variety lacks something in quality; this is perhaps due to complete homogenization. But as the technique is well within the capabilities of an 8-year-old child, it has much to recommend it."

[NeroW]

Reminds me of Julia Child and Simone Beck's comment in Mastering the Art of French Cooking about making hollandaise sauce in a blender:

"If you are used to handmade hollandaise, you may find the blender variety lacks something in quality; this is perhaps due to complete homogenization. But as the technique is well within the capabilities of an 8-year-old child, it has much to recommend it."

This weekend I was beginning to freak out about the impending start of culinary school, so my boyfriend suggested that we page through my mother's Julia Child books to make myself feel better. In "The Way To Cook," he came upon a statement that he found hilarious. Julia writes that a child should learn to prepare and serve a whole fish, especially trout, as soon as the child takes to knife and fork, as this is a "fantastic way for them to begin to have pride in themselves and their abilities." I laughed out loud, and I did feel better . . . but not much

Personally, when I first started cooking, I was recipe-driven, and afraid to deviate. I still browse recipes, but more for ideas than anything else. Rarely will I adhere to one, except for the ancient family preparations that I would be flayed for messing with--lutefisk comes to mind. I appreciate magazines such as "Cook's Illustrated" for deconstructing the more complicated preparations--Beef Wellington, boeuf bourguignon, and the like--as Chris Kimball and his staff do an excellent job of making their recipes fool-proof and accessible through what must be exhaustive testing.

[elyse]

I do like and need recipes. Can't remember who said what so my apologies for lack of credit. It's a long thread! I think recipes should be very specific and detailed regarding what to look for and what to avoid. You can always ignore superfluous information, but it's hard to get the information if necessary. Kind of like salt. You can always add more, but difficult to take it out. Ummm... reverse that.

I use recipes as a blueprint. I have forgotten key ingredients when preparing things, or had to add them after the "right" time. No major disasters, but I'm calmer when I have something to follow. Reminds me of my fabulous baking class last week. I don't know what exactly we were making (I was doing something else after hearing the ingredients, not my problem), but the teacher asked for 4# confectioners sugar, 4# cocoa, and eggs of some amount. Obviously after mixed, he noticed this was wrong (4 OZ cocoa), and threw the whole thing out (much to my personal chagrin). He definitely should have referred to a recipe (he DID say pounds) or showed it to us so we could have used the right measurements. I shall be requesting a different instructor next time around. P.S. I wanted to keep the cocoa mixture to experiment. He doesn't understand this concept. Would I have been crazy? Sink or swim, I am there to learn.

I like Sara Moulton's approach. She mentioned once that she follows recipes exactly the first time she makes something, and then improvises after that. I do this for the most part, unless there's something that I really dislike, or really want. Personally, I'm not NEARLY experienced enough to just wing it every time I enter the kitchen. Plus, I tend to bake more than anything else, and need the formulas for good construction. I'm just not smart enough to leave that part out. I think a lot of cooking/baking is based in science, and if your head is not geared in that direction, you need the extra help of some well chosen words.

Someone mentionned differences in how one approaches playing music. Some people are incredibly talented and can jam without thought. Other people need sheet music, but can play anything beautifully the first time around. I could do neither. I'm just not talented musically. Nor mathematically. Science... eh... If it makes sense to me, I'm cool. I'm just not geared to that type of thinking. I think to be able to just wing it in the kitchen, you must be very talented, and have the wherewithall to screw up. I don't have that either. Some of us need to not screw up the first time round, and following a recipe can get us pretty close. That also goes for the expense of classes and books. I collect recipes on the internet. When I cook or bake, I'll take out all of my recipes for the thing I'm making and take elements from several recipes. Again, I just can't keep it all in my head, and need to be reminded.

For those who think detailed recipes thwart our creativity, isn't that like saying that we shouldn't read literature, but only write it? Too extreem? I can't just make things up out of the blue. I was so intrigued by the demos at the IHMRS in November. I couldn't come up with those combinations if you held a gun to my head. And I wanted to have them in my files to remember the possibilities, and maybe use an element or two some day. But to think up that kind of thing on my own? Kill me now, cause it'll never happen.

I think that's all I have to say.

[mags]

I suspect that for me, at least, there is no such thing as the ideal recipe format, if only because I use cookbooks for very different purposes. Sometimes I read cookbooks as food porn, and I want lush, discriptions, stories about the tiny village in Sardinia where the author first experienced the dish, etc. etc. etc., and I'm really not fussy about whether the thing can be frozen. Sometimes I read cookbooks for ideas, and then I like discussions about what dishes and wines this dish might go well with. And finally, sometimes I use cookbooks purely as manuals, primarily for dishes and preparations with which I'm not terribly familiar. In this instanct, you betcha I want very very specific instructions.

But the thing is, the stuff for which I need specific instructions might well be different from the stuff for which somebody else might need specific instructions. I almost never bake, and I have cooked pork and fish fairly rarely, so I turn to books like "The Best Recipe" (from Cook's Illustrated) or Rose Levy Bernbaum's "The Cake Bible" when something porky or fishy or cake-y is on the agenda. But I can make risotto with my eyes closed, so if I look in a cookbook, what I'm interested in is ideas about flavorings -- I don't need much help with the technique. In that instance, I'd be much happier with something in the Elizabeth David line, which chats a bit.

[jersey13]

I'm not terribly fussy about recipes but I do prefere ones in which the ingredients are listed before the method and not as a part of the method. I have read Gourmet for years and their old format was a long paragraph that had to be read in its entirety just to get a list of ingredients. God help you if you read too quickly! Within the past few years they have changed their format drastically to include prep time, etc and I love it. Listing any equipment is a big help too. The average home baker only has so many "large bowls." (Eventually I found myself using pots!)

But, as others in this thread have pointed out, we can't assume too much when writing recipes. There are loads of things I do and know from experience, but if you're talking to someone whose mom made apple pie from a mix (yeah, really), don't expect them to know what you mean when you say you want the mixture to resemble "coarse meal."

[Suvir Saran]

I do like and need recipes.  Can't remember who said what so my apologies for lack of credit.  It's a long thread!  I think recipes should be very specific and detailed regarding what to look for and what to avoid.  You can always ignore superfluous information, but it's hard to get the information if necessary.  Kind of like salt.  You can always add more, but difficult to take it out. Ummm... reverse that.

I use recipes as a blueprint.  I have forgotten key ingredients when preparing things, or had to add them after the "right" time.  No major disasters, but I'm calmer when I have something to follow.  Reminds me of my fabulous baking class last week.  I don't know what exactly we were making (I was doing something else after hearing the ingredients, not my problem), but the teacher asked for 4# confectioners sugar, 4# cocoa, and eggs of some amount.  Obviously after mixed, he noticed this was wrong (4 OZ cocoa), and threw the whole thing out (much to my personal chagrin).  He definitely should have referred to a recipe (he DID say pounds) or showed it to us so we could have used the right measurements.  I shall be requesting a different instructor next time around.  P.S.  I wanted to keep the cocoa mixture to experiment.  He doesn't understand this concept.  Would I have been crazy?  Sink or swim, I am there to learn.

I like Sara Moulton's approach.  She mentioned once that she follows recipes exactly the first time she makes something, and then improvises after that.  I do this for the most part, unless there's something that I really dislike, or really want.  Personally, I'm not NEARLY experienced enough to just wing it every time I enter the kitchen.  Plus, I tend to bake more than anything else, and need the formulas for good construction.  I'm just not smart enough to leave that part out.  I think a lot of cooking/baking is based in science, and if your head is not geared in that direction, you need the extra help of some well chosen words. 

Someone mentionned differences in how one approaches playing music.  Some people are incredibly talented and can jam without thought.  Other people need sheet music, but can play anything beautifully the first time around.  I could do neither.  I'm just not talented musically.  Nor mathematically.  Science... eh...  If it makes sense to me, I'm cool.  I'm just not geared to that type of thinking.  I think to be able to just wing it in the kitchen, you must be very talented, and have the wherewithall to screw up.  I don't have that either. Some of us need to not screw up the first time round, and following a recipe can get us pretty close.  That also goes for the expense of classes and books.  I collect recipes on the internet.  When I cook or bake, I'll take out all of my recipes for the thing I'm making and take elements from several recipes.  Again, I just can't keep it all in my head, and need to be reminded. 

For those who think detailed recipes thwart our creativity, isn't that like saying that we shouldn't read literature, but only write it?  Too extreem?  I can't just make things up out of the blue.  I was so intrigued by the demos at the IHMRS in November.  I couldn't come up with those combinations if you held a gun to my head.  And I wanted to have them in my files to remember the possibilities, and maybe use an element or two some day.  But to think up that kind of thing on my own?  Kill me now, cause it'll never happen.

I think that's all I have to say.

Great post.

You have said everything that I want in a cookbook/recipe when I use one.

I hardly ever use books, but when I do... I want and expect them to be precise, correct and helpful. If they are not, I hardly feel I have any need for having wasted time on looking at an incomplete recipe.

Like Sarah Moulton, in my own far more humble way and in my little kitchen, I too use a recipe completely for the first time, and then, once I have seen the results the author of it wants me to enjoy, I tweak it to become one that I will embrace as a recipe that will be prepared in my kitchen again and again. And for that, I think a recipe must be detailed and well written for a first good result. If it fails me that first time, I would hardly give the author or the book another chance.

Recipes have a purpose. Those that know them do not need them. In my kitchen, my recipes have no place. They are written by me, or documented by another for the sole purpose of taking my recipes to another. And if in that goal, they fail the other, and thus reflect poorly on my own cooking skills, show my food in bad light and question the brilliance of the cuisine that particular recipe showcases, the recipe then also has failed me. Thus, a recipe at least in my humble world, has a very solemn purpose. It is the preamble into a much greater world. It is not a preface. The difference is important to understand, and one I am keenly aware of and expect a respectable writer of recipes to know as well. A recipe also tells me a great deal about who has written it and what ownership and pride they take in their food.

Recipes have a very important and pivotal role in perpetuating the glory of our kitchens from one generation to another. One to share, encourage and pass on a legacy. I for one respect my art dearly, for it is not really my own, but one I have myself grasped not yet in its entirety only because others were willing to share with me in full detail, with pride and respect and with erudition. How else would the world remember the vast greatnesses that make today seem brilliant? Thus, mere scribbles, thoughtless numbers, proportions and ingredients, play a role in my life and kitchen, but not as a recipe, but for merely a documentation that works to help me and chefs in my professional kitchen do our chores professionally. But I hardly ascribe to them the lofty burden that comes from being called recipes. In fact, I am the first to discard those sheets soon after an event I cater, for I never want another to think that those scribbles of mine were a tool for them to try and use in recreating what they enjoyed at that meal.

[stagis]

As I was reading this thread, I started thinking about good and bad cookbooks I've owned (and either treasured or discarded) and why I either tossed 'em or kept 'em. THEN I started thinking about how I learned to cook and how I cook now.

In my case, life experiences (non-cooking ones) play a big part, but I think an easier way to say that is, "You learn quicker, and it sticks with you longer, if you can watch someone do it." I'm a Scoutmaster, and just love to play with ropes and knots, and I've bought a couple books (Bibles of the genre) to learn more - and when I'm struggling, I try to find someone to show me what the book meant. My Scouts learn faster and keep it longer, if they're shown how to do something.

When I started learning to cook well, I couldn't draw on life experiences. Nothing against my mom, but she was of the 'open the canned veggies and cook 'em till they're dead' school. I started with books and accumulated quite a collection. Sunset Books' series of cookbooks isn't what you'd call gourmet-style, but they present their recipes well and I never found one that didn't work.

At this point, I find cookbooks like 'Look and Cook - Splendid Soups' tiresome in their presentation but with, again, excellent recipes that work. It'd still be nicer to be shown than to learn out of a book (sitting with the lady at the local Chinese restaurant as she made wontons opened my eyes - and this after serving untold numbers of fried wontons as appetizers.....)

Speakin' of which, I'll be camping with the Scouts this weekend and demonstrating how not to burn your bread and bake-ables.....wish me luck :)