Definition of "simmer"

[JAZ]

Over on the WikiGullet project we've been working on the entry for "simmer." Like most of the seemingly easy entries, it's turned out to be a little more complicated than I expected. My question is this: is simmering a term that refers to the temperature of a cooking liquid, or is it an actual cooking method? My first inclination was to define "simmer" as cooking food in very hot but not boiling water. But then, I thought that a better description of "simmer" was what you do with liquid, or mostly liquid dishes like soups or stews. So you poach foods in a simmering liquid, but, for instance, you don't simmer fish -- you poach it.

Of course, since I'm asking here, I have no idea what's right. What do you think?

[gfweb]

Is it a noun or a verb or both? I'd say both. It is both a temp short of boiling and a method.

Some of the issue is one of usage rather than strict definition As you say poaching and simmering are done at the same temperature, yet some foods are said to be poached and others simmered.

Edited May 19, 2011 by gfweb (log)

[heidih]

My gut response is that for me simmer means the liquid has bubbles that are gentle, perhaps popping to the surface in a slow cadence versus a boil which is vigorous

[butterscotch]

Is it a noun or a verb or both? I'd say both. It is both a temp short of boiling and a method.

Some of the issue is one of usage rather than strict definition As you say poaching and simmering are done at the same temperature, yet some foods are said to be poached and others simmered.

I always thought that poaching meant the liquid would be for the most part discarded, so it was a method of cooking solids (in simmering liquids)?

[AAQuesada]

Textbook def is bubbling gently btwn 185 and 205 deg Fahrenheit

[hansjoakim]

I just looked this up in one of my textbooks, and it seems to me that the main difference is temperature. A poaching liquid should be between 160F and 180F, while a simmering liquid is one kept between 185F and 205F.

[AAQuesada]

yup we were talking about poaching vs braising just the other day

[Mjx]

I've always understood simmering to be visually identifiable by the surface barely moving, or, at most, showing very small, occasional, lazy bubbles (I like McGee's use of the word 'coy' to describe it [On Food and Cooking 2004 p. 162]).

[haresfur]

Textbook def is bubbling gently btwn 185 and 205 deg Fahrenheit

Ok, but if it's not boiling, why is it bubbling?

[Blether]

... Ok, but if it's not boiling, why is it bubbling?

Because boiling point and bubble point are different ?

[AAQuesada]

The short answer is because it's simmering.(creating bubbles that ripple the surface) Bubbling isn't in and of itself boiling. (Bubbles that violently break the surface)

For example when you are doing Thomas Keller-esq Big Pot Blanching. You want the water 'at a boil' or a 'rolling boil' Otherwise it's not hot enough.

[Blether]

Hmm. It seems that a single-component liquid has the same bubble point and dew point. I'm deciding I like the definition of boiling here, "The phenomenological definition of boiling is the existance of sustained bubbles that break free of the surface".

[thirtyoneknots]

Is not simmering something you do to a liquid and poaching something you do to a solid? Ie, you simmer soups, sauces, or a poaching liquid such as court bouillon. When you add your fish, corned beef, quinelles, whatever, you are poaching them. Because the liquid is what is simmering, not the item being cooked.

[AAQuesada]

No.

Poaching, Simmering and Boiling are all descriptors of liquid in regards to the temperature of that liquid. Just like slow roast, roast in a moderate oven and high heat roast are all descriptors of ranges of oven temperature.

[dougal]

Let me begin by saying that simmering and poaching are words that should be relegated to history - at least for descriptive instructions.

Just as descriptive quantities like 'a pinch', 'a handful' or 'a cupful', are more accurately described by weights (and accurate scales are cheaply available to all), so its well beyond time (the thermometer no longer being an exotic 'modernist' toy) to quote specific temperatures for operations outside the oven.

Its not very long ago that thermostatically-controlled ovens were leading edge, and so recipes would only ever specify something like "a hot oven" or "a very slow oven".

Progress is possible!

Even a little sous vide experience demonstrates the difference between 55C and 65C for cooking proteins, and the difference between 70C and 88C for veg.

I just looked this up in one of my textbooks, and it seems to me that the main difference is temperature. A poaching liquid should be between 160F and 180F, while a simmering liquid is one kept between 185F and 205F.

Thinking about my understanding of the words, to me "poach" is only used to describe a process involving protein changes (well below water's boiling point), while "simmer" describes something only just below boiling - and thus appropriate for vegetable cooking - though some authors will speak of simmering proteins, 'poached veg' just sounds wrong.

And these different usages would account rather well for the different temperature ranges that hansjoakim cites.

Textbook def is bubbling gently btwn 185 and 205 deg Fahrenheit

Ok, but if it's not boiling, why is it bubbling?

Where you don't have a mixture of different boiling-point liquids, the bubbles would indicate localised attainment of boiling temperature.

This would be where there is not enough energy input to raise the temperature of the entire system to boiling point, the heat losses from top and sides making them cooler, while the heat input at the base will make it hotter than the average of the whole panful.

I think 'Simmering' describes the (near steady-state) condition where heat transport away from the base is not always fast enough to prevent hot spots (and/or nucleation sites) from reaching the liquid's boiling point.

[Chris Hennes]

No.

Poaching, Simmering and Boiling are all descriptors of liquid in regards to the temperature of that liquid. Just like slow roast, roast in a moderate oven and high heat roast are all descriptors of ranges of oven temperature.

I've never thought of "poaching" as a description of a liquid. Can you "poach" a soup?

[nickrey]

And just to put another complexity in. What about a slow simmer and a fast simmer? I've always gone by frequency of bubbling. I'm totally in support of defining different types of cooking in liquid by temperature range.

[Norm Matthews]

Temperature of the liquid can vary according to relative elevation and what other ingredients may be in the water for flavor.. such as court bouillon. The terms describe the degree of activity the liquid has. Poach is hot, below boiling. Then there is simmer, slow boil, boil, and rapid boil. The activity of the liquid is determined by the amount of heat applied and length of time needed for the condition described.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Norm Matthews (log)

[AAQuesada]

No.

Poaching, Simmering and Boiling are all descriptors of liquid in regards to the temperature of that liquid. Just like slow roast, roast in a moderate oven and high heat roast are all descriptors of ranges of oven temperature.

I've never thought of "poaching" as a description of a liquid. Can you "poach" a soup?

You aren't going to poach a soup, but you can poach the veg (ie cook them in a liquid that is between 160 and 180 degrees) Or you could say I want to cook that stock at poaching temp overnight so it remains clear.

Does this make sense?

Edited May 19, 2011 by AAQuesada (log)

[BadRabbit]

Temperature of the liquid can vary according to relative elevation and what other ingredients may be in the water for flavor.. such as court bouillon. The terms describe the degree of activity the liquid has.

But isn't that a good reason to use temps instead of bubble activity? The temperature is what is going to affect your end product not the amount and speed of the bubbles in the cooking liquid.

[thirtyoneknots]

No.

Poaching, Simmering and Boiling are all descriptors of liquid in regards to the temperature of that liquid. Just like slow roast, roast in a moderate oven and high heat roast are all descriptors of ranges of oven temperature.

I've never thought of "poaching" as a description of a liquid. Can you "poach" a soup?

You aren't going to poach a soup, but you can poach the veg (ie cook them in a liquid that is between 160 and 180 degrees) Or you could say I want to cook that stock at poaching temp overnight so it remains clear.

Does this make sense?

Then that is exactly what I was saying. Your liquid is simmering. Your vegetables are poaching. Maybe a 'slow simmer' but while you may have a poaching liquid (ie, liquid for poaching), you aren't poaching the liquid.

[AAQuesada]

No the liquid is at poaching temperature. Simmering and Poaching happen at different temperatures.

Wet Cooking

Poaching: To cook gently in in liquid that is hot but not bubbling about 160 to 180

Simmer: To cook in liquid that is bubbling gently about 185 to 205

Boil: To cook in liquid that is bubbling rapidly at about 212

*sea lvl, normal pressure ect.

If you want to use the terms differently that is up to you!

[Norm Matthews]

Ideal poaching temp for fish is approximately 140º. Any higher risks overcooking. At around 140 in an electric skillet, the fish won't overcook. Controlled temperature poaching is one advantage of sous vide so that is an argument in favor of cooking at temperature but simmer and boil are simpler and easier to see than measuring. Wine, water, salt and stock combined does not boil at the same temperature as plain water. Water does not boil at high elevations at the same temperature as sea level. If you want to go to the extra trouble of measuring a simmer or boil then go ahead. I just find it a bit of a bother to go to the extra step. It really isn't all that critical at what temperature you boil pasta or simmer a chicken stock.

[qrn]

I don't "boil"anything I guess, boiling temp here ,depending on barometric pressure,is 202 deg F

Thats why it takes 25+minutes to cook spaghetti...

Bud

[thirtyoneknots]

No the liquid is at poaching temperature. Simmering and Poaching happen at different temperatures.

Wet Cooking

Poaching: To cook gently in in liquid that is hot but not bubbling about 160 to 180

Simmer: To cook in liquid that is bubbling gently about 185 to 205

Boil: To cook in liquid that is bubbling rapidly at about 212

*sea lvl, normal pressure ect.

If you want to use the terms differently that is up to you!

Ok but even by those definitions you aren't poaching the liquid anymore than your are roasting your oven. I think this is a grammatical rather than scientific question.