Chamber Vacuum Sealers, 2011–2014

[LoftyNotions]

Thanks for your pictures. I am interested in how the seal bar works. Does it move up to clamp the bag at the end of the vacuum run? Or is the bag clamped all the time and the air inside is pushed out through the clamp as the vacuum increases?

I am beginning to think about building a chamber sealer of my own. I am looking into used autoclaves from hospitals. These generally operate at 30 psi for steam sterilization but should work equally well under half that pressure under full vacuum.

Anybody have any thoughts to share?

On my chamber first the chamber evacuates, then the sealer bar is pressed up against the red piece in the lid, then energized to make the seal. I believe that's how all chamber sealers work, since there aren't any evacuation channels in the bags. The bar is actuated pneumatically.

Since drawing a vacuum will reverse the forces applied to the chamber walls of an autoclave, it's hard to know if the chamber will take it. It sounds like a fun project though.

HTH,

Larry

[Todd in Chicago]

Regarding bags for the VP112.....

Excuse me this has been asked already but I don't think I saw the exact answer.

The VP112 comes with some great sample bags. Can you use the regular bags from ARY for SousVide use? Or must you get the "Cook in bag" ones? I believe the "cook in bag" ones priced double (I think). Does anyone know? Is this simply a matter of being "cautious" on their part or do you think differnt materials are used and cooking in these bags could leech chemicals.

Thanks....

Todd in Chicago

[Phaz]

The bags from amazon I posted above will work if you use a sealing time of 7 seconds on the VP112. I'd still rather have some 'normal' bags like those that come with the machine however.

[KennethT]

Thanks for your pictures. I am interested in how the seal bar works. Does it move up to clamp the bag at the end of the vacuum run? Or is the bag clamped all the time and the air inside is pushed out through the clamp as the vacuum increases?

I am beginning to think about building a chamber sealer of my own. I am looking into used autoclaves from hospitals. These generally operate at 30 psi for steam sterilization but should work equally well under half that pressure under full vacuum.

Anybody have any thoughts to share?

On my chamber first the chamber evacuates, then the sealer bar is pressed up against the red piece in the lid, then energized to make the seal. I believe that's how all chamber sealers work, since there aren't any evacuation channels in the bags. The bar is actuated pneumatically.

Since drawing a vacuum will reverse the forces applied to the chamber walls of an autoclave, it's hard to know if the chamber will take it. It sounds like a fun project though.

HTH,

Larry

It seems that the sealer bar is pressed up against the lid with a kind of air bladder - I guess if you have a sealed bladder partially filled with air, as the pressure decreases in the chamber, the bladder will "inflate" more pressing against the lid...

I was planning on using a solenoid or something to move the sealing bar.

just be careful that your "tank" is strong enough - the bigger the chamber, the more force will be pressing on it from all sides - and the numbers add up really quickly - a 12" square panel will have roughly 2000 pounds pushing against it (roughly 144 sq. in. at 14 psi).

[paulpegg]

Thanks for your pictures. I am interested in how the seal bar works. Does it move up to clamp the bag at the end of the vacuum run? Or is the bag clamped all the time and the air inside is pushed out through the clamp as the vacuum increases?

I am beginning to think about building a chamber sealer of my own. I am looking into used autoclaves from hospitals. These generally operate at 30 psi for steam sterilization but should work equally well under half that pressure under full vacuum.

Anybody have any thoughts to share?

On my chamber first the chamber evacuates, then the sealer bar is pressed up against the red piece in the lid, then energized to make the seal. I believe that's how all chamber sealers work, since there aren't any evacuation channels in the bags. The bar is actuated pneumatically.

Since drawing a vacuum will reverse the forces applied to the chamber walls of an autoclave, it's hard to know if the chamber will take it. It sounds like a fun project though.

HTH,

Larry

It seems that the sealer bar is pressed up against the lid with a kind of air bladder - I guess if you have a sealed bladder partially filled with air, as the pressure decreases in the chamber, the bladder will "inflate" more pressing against the lid...

I was planning on using a solenoid or something to move the sealing bar.

just be careful that your "tank" is strong enough - the bigger the chamber, the more force will be pressing on it from all sides - and the numbers add up really quickly - a 12" square panel will have roughly 2000 pounds pushing against it (roughly 144 sq. in. at 14 psi).

Thanks. The neat thing about some of the autoclaves I have seen is that they have a domed door with a seal built in that would probably hold the vacuum quite safely. If I find one big enough I would contact the manufacturer to check out the specifications on the seal. The worst thing that can happen is that the seal leaks. I strongly doubt that a stainless steel vessel designed for +2 atmospheres internal pressure would have any problems with -1 atmosphere. The cheapest one I have seen was $195. A good vacuum pump is a little over $100 and a seal bar is also probably about $100. Designing a method to push the seal bar closed and get power to it shouldn't be too big a hurdle. More later.

[Msk]

Would I be crazy to try and make Limoncello in a vac bag? Any idea how much this would speed up the extraction?

Mike

[abadoozy]

So those of you with the VP112 - is there anything it hasn't done well for you? Any regrets you didn't get a beefier model?

Looking at getting one, and so far I'm not reading anything that says I should go for anything other than the VP112, but want to make sure I know the pros/cons. I'd actually like the smaller version as I have some hopes of lugging around 50 pounds by myself, whereas the 90 pound version would involve listening to my husband swear every time I wanted to move it.

[Msk]

I love mine. I am honestly having a blast with it and the stuff I have been doing is cool enough to have my wife let me keep it out unless we are having guests

Pros

Great Seals Once you get the hang of the "Quirks"

low form factor

excellent size chamber for the footprint

Price/perfromance

Cons

Its Heavy (seriously heavy and I am a big guy)

its Ugly

Minor quirks (but easy to work around)

I have also figured out that by "pressing down" on VP112 lid it accelerates the vaccing process beyond just getting it to start. This became apparent when doing the Mango Sorbet from MC. I got a much better rise out of the puree.

Mike

[Todd in Chicago]

I agree with MSK on all his points and am JEALOUS that his wife let's it stay on the countertop. ;-) Actually mines been there since I got it since....I'm not really sure where I'll store it as it doesn't fit into any of our cabinets. Maybe she'll forget it's there????? LOL....

If you are deciding only on functionality, I would probably go with the VP210. For me, not a good choice. Too big and heavy to move around (remember - for me it's not supposed to stay on the counter). And as MSK has indicated, the VP112 ain't that light either. If could do whatever I wanted, I probably would have gotten the VP210 because I think the price difference is really only about $200 now. A 90 pound, no slim profile machine was not in the cards for me.

I did make the compressed watermelon squares too. What I found was that when I first compressed them and tried them was kind of disappointing - not really that big of a deal. The color turns really cool. But I found that if I left them in the bag - they got even better tasting after a few days. The wife was very impressed! (That's ALWAYS a good thing). I'm actually quite impressed with the machine and the folks I got it from (Homestead Harvest). I turned around and purchased 1000 of the 8x10 bags and 1000 of the 10x13 bags which I think should keep me set for quite some time.

Cheers...

Todd in Chicago

[Chris Amirault]

I couldn't swing the 1K bag purchase so I just grabbed two boxes of the 3 ml Vacmaster bags from Amazon: 100 10"x13" and 200 6"x12". I did talk to Conrad at Homestead Harvest about offering a package with an array of, say, 200 count of three or four sizes, and if they do something like that he said he'd be in touch.

ETA: I did confirm that the VP 112 selection are all 3 ml bags.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Chris Amirault (log)

[lstrelau]

Chris,

Did Conrad indicate whether the bags that come with the VP112 are 'plain' vacuum bags or actual 'cooking-grade' bags. Or for that matter does it really matter? I am still curious about this.

Llyn

[Chris Amirault]

He said that those bags are the standard issue 3 ml bags that I linked to above. They aren't retort pouches nor boil bags.

[lstrelau]

I bought some boilable bags from another source and use them for any long-time cooking and the ones that I bought from Homestead for short-time items. Do you use boilable bags or just the 'regular' ones? I don't think we can use retort bags in the VP112 anyway.

Anyone else have an opinion?

[Todd in Chicago]

I bought some boilable bags from another source and use them for any long-time cooking and the ones that I bought from Homestead for short-time items. Do you use boilable bags or just the 'regular' ones? I don't think we can use retort bags in the VP112 anyway.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Lynn,

I actually emailed ARY inc.; the makers of the VP112 and the bags in question (at leat the ones I bought) and here is their reply:

**************

Todd, I received your questions regarding use of vacuum pouches during with sous vide cooking. If these pouches are a true 3mil high-barrier nylon/poly pouch, you will be fine. Please monitor the temps to make sure you don’t exceed 180F. Also, it would be best for longer hours of cooking to around 150F to 160F. The pouches you purchased, are they Hantover’s numbers 30722(8x10) and 30725(10x13)? <edit: Yes they were> For cooking above 180F please use one of our retherm pouches with part number 30749 thru 30753. Thanks and have a great day.

**************

When buying these bags in bulk (like the 1000 qty. I did), they come out to about 8 cents a bag (including shipping). BTW...1000 bags is quite heavy!

Cheers...

Todd in Chicago

Edited April 19, 2011 by Todd in Chicago (log)

[mkayahara]

Personally, I would find an upper limit of 180F to be unacceptably low: you wouldn't be able to do very much vegetable cooking in those. I guess if you do only meat, it's not a big deal, though.

[Chris Amirault]

Hrm. That doesn't make sense to me. Using two of those sample bags, I just cooked a bunch of fingerlings in duck fat at 85C (over 180F) for two hours and everything seems hunky dory. What am I at risk for?

[lstrelau]

Hrm. That doesn't make sense to me. Using two of those sample bags, I just cooked a bunch of fingerlings in duck fat at 85C (over 180F) for two hours and everything seems hunky dory. What am I at risk for?

This has been my unanswered question from day 1. Can't seem to get a consensus on whether there is any potential leaching of something from the plastic bag at veggie cooking temperatures. I figure, at 56 years old, the small amount, if any, that would leach isn't likely to affect my lifespan or health. (I have non-modernist friends who mutter about boil in a bag and plastic...) but surely someone out here (Nathan??) can tell us if we should be using boilable rather than regular vacuum bags for long time low temp cooking.

Llyn

[Todd in Chicago]

Hrm. That doesn't make sense to me. Using two of those sample bags, I just cooked a bunch of fingerlings in duck fat at 85C (over 180F) for two hours and everything seems hunky dory. What am I at risk for?

Hi Chris....

I agree that they did not truly answer my question as we might have all wanted. My guess is that like any company, they are give very conservative numbers. My other "hunch" is that this is simply from a heat perspective and how well the bags hold up vs. any kind of chemicals leaching out. I'm sure they would rather us buy the more expensive "boil in bag". I'm not at all indicating any deception on the manufacturer, but rather a company that is providing conservative information for the benefit of their customers (and stockholders!).

Cheers...

Todd in Chicago

[ChrisZ]

I am beginning to think about building a chamber sealer of my own.

Anybody have any thoughts to share?

I agree that this looks like a fun and very feasible DIY project. I thought I'd mention that model making forums - ie model airplanes, model trains - are a good source of information as those guys have been making their own vacuum forming presses for longer than chefs have been bagging sous vide. I just did a quick google and even found a book on the subject. At the very least, combing through model making forums might give you good leads on suitable vacuum pumps and other materials suppliers, if nothing else.

I do like the way that the DIY spirit can cross hobbies. I have learnt a lot about liquid nitrogen from serious computer gamers who use it to cool down their computer CPUs so they can overclock them for additional performance.

One interesting thing to consider if you build your own vacuum chamber sealer is that just as water and alcohol will boil at lower temperatures when under lower pressures, any glues/solvents/paints/sealers etc etc will also boil at lower temps too. So some glues and sealers will be better suited than others for use in a vacuum chamber - for example, one guy on a model airplane forum said that epoxy resin is not a good glue to build a vacuum chamber with as it leaks too many vapours at low pressure, presumably failing after a short period of time. Perhaps this doesn't matter as much when you're only bagging for a few seconds, as opposed to curing model airplane parts for hours or days... but still, it's an interesting point to consider.

HTH.

[KennethT]

ChrisZ - that's a great idea...

I checked out a few hotel pans in the rest. supply store to use as the chamber... as I suspected, they are pretty flimsy (especially the large area bottom) and would need reinforcement. I was also thinking of using a large stockpot for a chamber, but they are much more expensive. I'm going to weigh how much effort it would be to reinforce the flimsy part, vs paying for something already sturdy... another problem with the stockpot is that since it is round, you wind up with a lot of unused space since the sealer bar is straight. So you wind up with a inscribed square in the round pot...

[Dian]

I couldn't swing the 1K bag purchase so I just grabbed two boxes of the 3 ml Vacmaster bags from Amazon: 100 10"x13" and 200 6"x12". I did talk to Conrad at Homestead Harvest about offering a package with an array of, say, 200 count of three or four sizes, and if they do something like that he said he'd be in touch.

Quality Matters offers a combo pack.

[Paul Bacino]

Curious..

Consider only MIl thickness of 2.5/ 3 /4 is their any real differance? Say other than ...from puncturing the bag?.. If the bags have a good seal and the air is out, we should be good to go? Preservation and cooking ( if rated so )?

Paul

Edited April 27, 2011 by Paul Bacino (log)

[abadoozy]

I just got my VP 112 the other day, and have been playing with it. I have some specific questions, not sure if this should go in the "Cooking with Modernist Cuisine" thread or here, I picked here since it's specifically about vacuum sealers.

I tried the compressed tomato and smoked lettuce from Modernist Cuisine's ultimate hamburger the other day, and the results were less than spectacular.

The Smoked Lettuce recipe says that you should put the lettuce/smokey water mixture uncovered/unwrapped in the vacuum sealer, bring it to a vacuum, turn off the machine, and let it sit under vacuum for 20 minutes. I can't figure out a way to get the VP112 to not release soon after stopping, so I tried just sealing it in a bag and letting it sit. Result was not great - the smoke flavor wasn't perceptible.

I read about vacuum-sealing to marinate, and they don't require the 20 minutes in the sealer thing, so what's the difference? I assume there is one, but heck if I know enough about vacuums to tell.

The Compressed Tomato sort of worked. The recipe didn't specify to put it in a bag, but it didn't say not to either, so I did. It compressed some, definitely had a different texture than the control (ha!) tomato I served with it , but not much tomato taste. I believe that has more to do with April tomatoes in the Far North than the recipe, though. Has anyone else tried this? Did you bag the tomato? What were your results?

[KennethT]

I've done the compressed tomato in a chamber, but without the bag... it seems like you have to cycle running the vacuum and then letting the air in several times in order to get good compression - there's actually discussion of this over on the Cooking Issues blog in the comments recently. It seems that unless you've got ridiculously strong vacuum (which most places won't have), the vacuum will only suck the air out of the vacuoles close to the surface, which will then compress when the air comes back in... each time you draw vacuum, the next layer down loses its air and compresses...

I've been compressing with my cheap-o faucet aspirator, so it takes several shots to get decent compression - but I'd imagine that if you were doing it in a bag which was being sealed, you'd have to cut the bag each time to be able to draw a new vacuum.

[abadoozy]

For those of you who have done the watermelon, can I get some details? How long did you vacuum for? Did you do it more than once or just once? Did you let it sit for a while before eating, or open right away?

I have a melon sitting in my kitchen right now, waiting for treatment.