Good food without expensive wine

[Nick]

This just came up on the Babbo thread - I guess I started it by saying, "I guess I have to be let it known here and now that I'm not a wine drinker. I've never gained an appreciation for it. Does this mean that if I go to a decent restaurant in NYC (or anywhere else for that matter) and don't order wine, the meal will be sub-par? I can't just go there to have good food?"

So, what do you all think? Is there a way to get fine food without ordering expensive wine - or, perhaps no wine at all? Will you be thought of as some kind of nut for going into a starred restaurant and not having wine? That is, that you have gone there for the food and not the wine?

[cabrales]

In France, at one-or-greater star facilities, it would be better in my assessment to order at least a glass of wine (and bottled water). While I usually order 1/2 bottles or full bottles for meals I care about, when (1) I am no a diet, (2) have had too much to drink during a period, and/or (3) have two significant meals planned during a day, I sometimes order by the glass. Ironically, it's not unexpected for me to do that, as I am a solo woman dinner (not that that stereotype is appropriate in any way). I get comp'd on champagne by the glass, dessert wine by the glass and other wines by the glass with some frequency, regardless of whether I have also ordered a 1/2 bottle or bottle.

I order by the glass a great deal in the US, as a solo diner. If I don't expect the cuisine to be particularly memorable, I might feel that a less-than-very good wine would suffice. I am also a relative newbie in the world of wines, and am pursuing the sampling of more and more wines.

[Fat Guy]

Superstition in restaurantgoing is the norm especially among Americans. There seems to be a universal assumption that restaurants are out to get us, that it's us versus them. One thing I can say for sure: Whenever people get unsatisfactory meals, they look for explanations. "I didn't order fancy wine" or "The restaurant didn't know me" are easy explanations that pander to our collective restaurant-related fears and insecurities. They are, however, often incorrect.

Having spent some time in restaurant kitchens, I can say with some authority that good restaurants don't yell out with every order "This guy ordered really good wine so make his food better" and "We have no idea who this guy is so make his food suck" or "This is a woman dining alone." The line cooks don't really care. VIP treatment certainly does exist at every restaurant, but it tends to be realized in the details.

[Wilfrid]

Steven, do you think it makes a difference to servers? It does, under New York etiquette anyway, have a direct bearing on their tip. As a solo diner, I have often detected the server's relief when they recognize that I am not going to sit over a glass of chardonnay all night.

I don't know how much that filters back to the kitchen.

Edited December 6, 2002 by Wilfrid (log)

[marcus]

I may be completely heretical on this, but I believe that wine is completely unnecessary to the enjoyment of food and vice versa. In fact, poor wine can detract from fine food and great wine can compete with it to the detraction from both. Certain foods don't go with wine at all, such as strong cheeses. Some fine wines don't go with food at all such as Condrieu (I know that there is a lot of disagreement on this point). However, with proper selection, great wine with simply prepared food and good but simple wine with complex food, do create synergistic benefits.

All that being said, my own approach is to largely ignore pairing considerations and just to order the particular food and wine that I want, the wine selection being driven by choosing a wine that I am interested in trying in and of itself.

[Fat Guy]

Steven, do you think it makes a difference to servers?  It does, under New York etiquette anyway, have a direct bearing on their tip.  As a solo diner, I have often detected the server's relief when they recognize that I am not going to sit over a glass of chardonnay all night.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I don't think it's about the money. What motivates restaurants to perform at a high level isn't money, it's discerning diners. Sure a restaurant loves money, but most restaurants I know are proud of what they do. And if you can communicate to them that you are eager to sample their best effort, they will often give it to you. Wine, since the percentage of people who have a lot of knowledge is small, is a good way to communicate to the restaurant that you are knowedgable. And it isn't the price of the wine that necessarily does that, it's the conversation about the wine with the sommelier that usually does the trick. As I reported in the other thread about Babbo, when I said to the sommelier that I had tried most of the wines on the list, even though I was exagerating, he could have used that statement as a launch point to find out how much I really know and then report that to the kitchen. But he didn't really care. And I don't think it would have made a bit of difference to him if I ordered a $1000 bottle of wine.

[hollywood]

even though I was exagerating

Mais non!

[mikec]

At my last meal at Daniel, I consulted with Jean Luc Le Du about the wine. I told him what dishes we were planning to order and that I thought a white wine would go well. I also told him of some of the characteristics that I like in white wine. To top it all off, I even said that I was thinking of wine X (which was at the top end of my budget). To my great surprise, he said "while that would work well, I would suggest wine Y". The surprising part was that wine Y was less than half the price of the wine I pointed out. It turned out to be a stunning match for the food that we were having.

I think that the bottom line is that there are some restaurant staffers who love what they do and there are others that do it for the money, etc. This can be applied to the busboy all the way up to the owner. The fact that the wine that I ordered at Daniel was by their winelist's standards, inexpensive didn't change anything about the service or food. Both of which were some of the best that I've had in NYC.

Much like FG said, there isn't a guy standing in the back relaying wine orders to the chef. "Psst, the couple at table twelve ordered the cheap chardonnay...overcook their fish!"

Mike

[ajay]

Mikec,

Presumably no kitchen would ever purposely attempt to produce a dish that was less than their best quality, but it happens. I think what Steve P. was (and I think Robert Shoenfeld but I'm too lazy to check) was referring to was the phenomenon where certain members of the front of the house staff whether they be sommeliers or captains et cetra inform the kitchen that table x 'gets it' or to use Tommy's formulation the table is composed of supertasters, or VIPs, whose meal should be prepared with that little extra bit of care. I think that this is a reasonable assumption.

FG, who has spent time in restaurant kitchens asserts that discussions of this sort are a rarity within a kitchen. Not having spent any time in one myself, I defer to him. But, it also seems clear to me that at places like Blue Hill, and Jean Georges (where I have witnessed this) and Babbo, certain customers are in fact able to acquire special interest from the kitchen. More likely than not, this special status is more likely a function of being a celebrity or friend of the restaurant rather than being a supertaster, but those supertasters (like myself of course of course) can always hope that by virtue of their tasting prowess they can wheedle a better experience out of the kitchen than the tourists.

Seriously, toungue back out of cheek, I think Nicn's question is a good one, and I have a feeling that failure to order wine will likely have an adverse impact on the service, but my experience is anecdotal like Wilfrid's rather than based on expert knowledge like FG or wide experience like Steve p.

[cabrales]

I'm not a supertaster, but I believe that in France my comments on cuisine (e.g., individual dishes with which I have no background prior to arriving at the restaurant) generally do lead to special treatment when the restaurant is starred (together with being appropriately dressed up and speaking French). Comments should be incisive, but initially not abundant in quantity. Knowledge of wine and elegant table manners are helpful.

[marcus]

I believe that in top restaurants in France the kitchen tries to do its best for all diners and there is much less of this variability that we have been discussing with regard to NY restaurants. To a very great extent, Europeans pride themselves on their craftsmanship to a greater extent and on their business acumen to a lesser extent. In addition, the restaurants serve many fewer patrons and have larger staffs, which all contribute to their ability to deliver consistent quality. I remember an article in the NYT regarding Jean Georges opening his restaurant in Paris. The restaurant was turning away celebrities that just showed up without a reservation, and his comment was that they needed to understand as in NY that these people needed to be seated.

[cabrales]

The "baseline" level is indeed high at most French two- and three-stars. However, I believe some are capable of performing at yet higher levels.

For example: Edouard Loubet's baseline cuisine is very good (in my opinion one of the strongest two stars in France, together with Lorain). Even though his "regular" tasting menu is very good in quality, composition and quantity, he can offer more delicious meals when he gifts special dishes and provides samplings of a la carte dishes not included in the tasting menu. He doesn't necessarily provide such extras upon request to all diners.

Edited December 6, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[marcus]

I agree with your point, if it is specifically focused on extras. I think that we need to distinguish between baseline and extras. The majority of the discussion on this topic, some of it on the babbo thread, is about variation in baseline, to whit cold lamb chops.

[mikec]

ajay,

I can see how VIP's (celebrity, regular, big spender, friend of the chef) might get treatment that is above and beyond what the "average" diner would receive. However, I have trouble with the concept that one needs to order an expensive bottle of wine in order to get the standard treatment at a restaurant.

I would think that most people who go to a high end restaurant aren't ordering expensive wine. For arguements sake, let's use the figure of $150/btl as the lower boundary of what we consider expensive. I would be really curious to know how many tables order a bottle of wine that costs more than $150 at one of the high end places in NYC on a given night. I'd be surprised if it were anything more than 25%. Now maybe I'm wrong on all my numbers, but if 75% of the customers on any given night got substandard service and/or food, I suspect that such a place would be out of business in a relatively quick period of time.

Obviously everything here is just speculation.

Mike

[mikec]

I agree with your point, if it is specifically focused on extras.  I think that we need to distinguish between baseline and extras.  The majority of the discussion on this topic, some of it on the babbo thread, is about variation in baseline, to whit cold lamb chops.

This is exactly what I'm getting at in a more verbose fashion. I can see how ordering an expensive bottle of wine might generate an extra amuse bouche or dessert or some sort of special attention.

However I can't see how the absence of an expensive wine would generate a sub-baseline experience. One may get a less than stellar experience, but I doubt it has anything to do with the wine. More likely an off night.

Edited December 6, 2002 by mikec (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well part of the overall discussion is how big a difference there is between the baseline cuisine and what people who get individualized treatment get. And then the secondary part is what somebody has to do to overcome the barrier between the known and the unknown. And I think the latter is much easier to do in France for the simple reason that they don't flip tables. So the average diner spends more time with the serving staff and as a result gets treated differently.

In fact we believe the cold lamb chops came about as a result of Jaybee and Toby ordering a pasta course. Everyone else ate two courses. We are certain that what happened was someone in the kitchen didn't coordinate the food properly so our main courses were ready while they were still eating their pasta and they sat around getting cold. And this means two mistakes were made, and possibly three because nobody on the kitchen staff not our waitress either noticed or cared about our food sitting around and getting cold. And I am sure that this happens all of the time but people don't send their food back.

Edited December 6, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Toby]

This probably belongs over on the Babbo thread, but as I complained over there about the whole point of the 2-minute calamari being lost by coming to the table lukewarm (reheating would have changed the texture), the same could be said about the lamb chops scottadito -- to scorch the fingers. It left me feeling that the restaurant staff didn't care enough to get the point of its own food.

[Wilfrid]

Those seem to me to be foolish dishes to put on a restaurant menu.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well yes there's the other issue of their choosing to reheat our food as opposed to them cooking us new orders. But who is being picky eh?

[ajay]

Cabrales,

You are a super duper supertaster.

[i have no other substance to add to this discussion.]

[macrosan]

I certainly hope that it's not true that ordering expensive wine delivers a better quality meal. In fact I get the impression that everyone who has posted feels that way. And I note what FatGuy has said, that in his experience it's not so. Without any knowledge of the behind-the-scenes working of a restaurant, it would seem logically unlikely to be true.

There does seem to be some logic that expensive wine might impress servers, and possibly even improve the quality of service. But that would be no different from ordering expensive dishes (like truffles), and I guess servers will also react similarly to diners who look super-rich.

But most of us are, I suppose, just guessing. Now much play is made at eGullet of how we attract the industry professionals to our site, and how we should always temper our posts in order to persuade them to stay here. Well, guys, prove to the rest of us that you're out there. Let's have some restaurant staff telling us what really does happen.

[Stone]

It's funny, but I read the original post to suggest that food tastes better when accompanied by wine. The the wine opens the palate and accentuates the flavors and by skipping wine, the dinner wouldn't taste as good.

But these responses are interesting.

Reminds me of a lunch I had in Milan (one of the few stories I have that begin that way), I ordered a primi/pasta and no entree. The waitress looked at me like I was crazy, but having eaten at the restaurant before, I knew I didn't need more food -- the pasta dishes were huge (and I have a stomach bigger than my eyes). The dish I got was so oversalted that I couldn't eat it. I believe it was cultural retribution. I tried to tell the waitress and hostess, but she pretended not to understand. Damn Italians.

[Steve Plotnicki]

But Ed Schoenfeld already answered this question when he said;

During my early years in the industry I worked as a captain/maitre'd at a series of high end Chinese restaurants. I have often described my job as 'food shrink.' I would talk with my clients, size them up. ascertain their level of food sophistication, what they liked and didn't like, what they felt like eating, how hungry they were, what they tried last time, and I would then make some suggestions about items I thought were really good and that seemed appropriate. When they hit on one or two they wanted to try I would then direct the conversation to what dishes would go well with what they had selected. The goal was to ying and yang their menu so that they got a good balance of items, flavors, textures and colors. Because I worked in the restaurant and knew how everything looked and tasted, it was easy for me to make sure my clients had a good experience (assuming the chefs did their jobs).

The point is you don't always get that service. In fact, these days there are many popular restaurants where you have to prove yourself before you get that kind of service.

It isn't that expensive wine impreses anyone. What is does is show that you might be a knowledgable diner. One indication that someone is a knowledgable diner is the type of wine they buy. And it just so happens that most expensive wines happen to be great wines too, and the people who often order them know a lot about food. So it gives the house a silent way to assess how experienced a diner is. I assure you that when you order a wine in the restaurant and when pouring it for you you tell him, "I was just at the vineyard tasting the last 15 vintages," he will fawn over you. Now whether that information will get to the captain and the chef all depends on how the place is wired for service.

[Jinmyo]

Here's a Mario story, based on memory from the New Yorker bio. A table sends back the chops. Everyone in the kitchen clusters around the plate, everyone says they're fine, the table's a bunch of stooges but we'll do what they want. Chops go back out. Something else comes back from the table. Mario shouts, "That's it. Get them out of here. They'll never eat here again. What are they drinking?" A $600 plonk de plonk. "Oh, all right." The night continues. Mario goes out front to watch the table leave.