Ideal copper pans?

[Dakki]

That's... a really great question, ScoopKW. It depends mostly on whether I decide to go with all business no frills for an affordable and really usable product line aimed at the pros and semi-pros (a losing proposition for a small guy because cost is inversely proportional to volume) or something aimed at Williams-Sonoma shoppers (which is a losing proposition because I have no brand-name recognition, no marketing budget and I'm not based in Europe or Japan).

I have some hard thinking to do before this takes any definite shape.

[David A. Goldfarb]

There is a metal fabrication shop in Brooklyn called Hammersmith making copperware in small quanitites as a side business and selling it mainly through a shop called The Brooklyn Kitchen. Their website seems to be under reconstruction at the moment, so they don't have much listed online, but here's one example--

http://www.thebrooklynkitchen.com/web-store/cookware/copper/hammersmith/195-copper-sauce-pan-18cm-wo-lid/

They have more pieces in the store, and prices are comparable to Mauviel professional tin-lined copperware. They currently have some big contract with the City to make some kind of utility boxes or manhole covers or something, but they used to be a major supplier of copperware to restaurants and hotels, so they have molds and forms and tooling on hand for these pieces.

[nickrey]

I had always coveted copper cooking ware and when I had the opportunity to get some Mauviel pieces, I purchased a 26cm (10") frypan, as well as 18cm (7") and 14.5 (5.7") saucepans. These are all used frequently in my kitchen.

For specific cooking purposes, I have cast iron frypans and grills as well as specific non-stick pans (for omlettes, fried eggs, etc). These do things that copper won't do.

As others have mentioned copper sauté pans would be nice as well but I haven't yet seen the need to buy one.

[paulraphael]

I forgot an important request ... something that would be a fundamental innovation: some kind of thin carbon steel disk on the bottom of the pan, so it would work on induction. It would take some engineering to figure out a thickness that would give good enough induction performance without wrecking the responsiveness of the pan on conventional burners. But I bet it could be done.

Getting off track here. If you could have custom-made pans with expense being no object, what would you order?

Ok, I'd want pans of varying thicknesses for different purposes. Bottoms can be thicker than the sides in most cases. Smaller saucepans can be thinner (2.25mm or so) on the bottoms for responsiveness; larger pans like saute pans, which need to distribute heat farther and retain heat can be thick (3.0 + mm). I'm making up numbers ... an engineer working with serious cooks could pin this down better.

Since you're plating and not using the pre-made laminated material, you should be able to make pans with varying thicknesses like this.

Definitely not brass for the handles ... to conductive. A cast stainless handle, that's easy to grab with or without a side towel, and that's solid but no so massive that it takes forever to cool down, would be ideal. Tradtitional iron also seems to work fine.

I'd also want the selection of pans to be limited to (or at least focus on) pans that make sense for expensive copper. There is no reason besides being a sculpture collector for having a copper stock pot. Saucepans (including a sloped or curve-sided range) are most important. Frying and sauté pans are also nice. A copper rondeau is a great luxury (i don't have one, but if I ever find myself weighed down with currency ... )

[David A. Goldfarb]

Sitram has a line called "Pro 3" now that combines stainless with a thick copper disk and an induction disk. I've only seen it on their website--

http://www.sitramgroup.fr/

But that would give an idea of how thick the induction disk needs to be.

"Pro 1" looks like the former "Profiserie" line and "Pro 2" looks like the "Catering" line, which I've used.

Edited May 31, 2010 by David A. Goldfarb (log)

[Dakki]

I forgot an important request ... something that would be a fundamental innovation: some kind of thin carbon steel disk on the bottom of the pan, so it would work on induction.

I'm not familiar with induction stoves. Would stainless work?

[nickrey]

Basically any metal that a magnet will stick to will work.

[Dakki]

Given that the main advantage of copper over other materials is even heat distribution (or is heat control more important? I don't know!), I have another question: how even is the heating on an iron pan on an induction stove?

[paulraphael]

Given that the main advantage of copper over other materials is even heat distribution (or is heat control more important? I don't know!),

Even heat distribution is pretty easy with any conductive material. It's hard to do better than 1/4" thick aluminum. Copper allows excellent heat distribution AND fast response to temperature change. It's unique in its ability to do both so well.

I have another question: how even is the heating on an iron pan on an induction stove?

Acording to the guys at Cooking Issues, it's pretty piss poor: http://www.cookingissues.com/2010/02/16/heavy-metal-the-science-of-cast-iron-cooking/

As far as using stainless on induction, there are stainless steels that work, like the magnetic alloys used on the outside of All Clad pans and the equivalent. I don't know what the advantage would be in the case of a disk on a copper pan. The copper isn't remotely stainless, so I'd be most interested in a material's efficiency at tapping the induction energy.

[Dakki]

I'm afraid a steel disc thick enough to work properly with induction might affect that responsiveness.

Something else to think about.

[paulraphael]

I'm afraid a steel disc thick enough to work properly with induction might affect that responsiveness.

Something else to think about.

Sure, that's the question. I don't know how thick a disk has to be in order to work well on convection. Would be cool if you could get away with a real thin one.

[ScoopKW]

I wouldn't buy an induction anything -- stove, pan, wok, crock, you name it.

Start with thick copper pans, lined with something non-reactive, food safe, and heat-stable and go from there.

[paulraphael]

I wouldn't buy an induction anything -- stove, pan, wok, crock, you name it.

Well, induction is very likely the future. It's tremendously more efficient than anything else. Prices will come down. And abundant, cheap fossil fuels won't be around forever. I suspect over the next couple of decades induction will go from novelty to mainstream ... and if that's the case, guys like me who have mostly copper and aluminum pans are going to have to decide if our allegiance is to the past or the future. It would be great to not have to think about it.

[JAZ]

I'm afraid a steel disc thick enough to work properly with induction might affect that responsiveness.

Something else to think about.

Sure, that's the question. I don't know how thick a disk has to be in order to work well on convection. Would be cool if you could get away with a real thin one.

May I suggest you take a look at Demeyere cookware? They've been making induction-compatible, copper-disk-bottom cookware for ages (their Sirocco and Atlantis lines; most other lines are aluminum based). Thick copper disk (2mm, I think), a couple of thin layers of silver and something magnetic for the induction, all encased in stainless steel. I've seen a cross section of the cookware, and the other layers of metal are all very thin.

I've got a copper saute pan about the same size as my Demeyere one, and I can't tell the difference in the responsiveness, nor the evenness of the heat.

[Pam Brunning]

Don't worry you should be able to get a good price for your old copper pans in an antique shop - that is where they belong - come on join the 21stC. I have been cooking with induction for over two years now and wouldn't use anything else - it is fantastic compared with gas or electric.