Restaurants where it's most worth being a regular

[Fat Guy]

The public conversation about dining -- as in mainstream restaurant reviews and online discussions -- is almost exclusively concerned with the first-time dining experience at restaurants. Recommendations are made and accepted based on the assumption that an average consumer is entering a restaurant for the first time. This is in part why so many mainstream reviewers try or claim to try to be anonymous, and why hackles are often raised when a soigne customer gets special treatment and files a report based on that.

But for many diners, indeed perhaps for the critical core of diners at any given restaurant, the question of what you get on your first visit is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to evaluating a restaurant. Many people are interested in knowing what a restaurant can do for its regulars. They see going to a restaurant for the first few times as an investment in future meals, just as one's first few dates are a courtship period and help determine whether a long-term relationship is worthwhile.

So, setting aside the mainstream concern with first-time visits, who here has opinions about which New York restaurants are most worth having long-term relationships with? Where is it worth spending a few hundred or thousand dollars to become a regular? What's the return on investment in terms of special treatment?

I'll say that one extreme is Momofuku Ko. Momofuku Ko is an excellent restaurant but there is very little that happens at Momofuku Ko for regulars. I've been there ten times, which makes me in the top percent of a percent of regulars in terms of frequency of visits -- you can count on your fingers the number of people who've been more times than I have. And what you get for that is some extra conversation with the cooks and maybe a glass of Scotch after dinner (if you're in the later sitting). So there is little added value to becoming a regular at Ko.

Meanwhile, it is very much worth becoming a regular at Per Se, as I saw recently when dining there with a frequent customer. The level of dining experience we were afforded made his investment well worthwhile. Even though it was an expensive meal, we both felt like we should be paying triple for it. He had earned an incredible value proposition with his patronage.

[Sneakeater]

Daniel is the obvious answer.

(Just thought I'd get it out of the way, so that the interesting discussion could begin.)

Edited June 21, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[taion]

Meanwhile, it is very much worth becoming a regular at Per Se, as I saw recently when dining there with a frequent customer. The level of dining experience we were afforded made his investment well worthwhile. Even though it was an expensive meal, we both felt like we should be paying triple for it. He had earned an incredible value proposition with his patronage.

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Was it purely because of his status as a regular, or did your identity also play a role? I mean, not everyone is a director at the FCI.

[oakapple]

Daniel is the obvious answer.

(Just thought I'd get it out of the way, so that the interesting discussion could begin.)

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The interesting thing about Daniel is that, although many people say that it's a completely different restaurant once you become a regular, I do not recall any food board posts from anyone who had actually done so themselves.

Among restaurants popular with food board participants, Momofuku Ssäm Bar seems an obvious candidate, in that: A) There are a large number of people who have become regulars; B) If you know what to order, the food there is quite good; and C) If you make the substantial investment, the staff there do take care of you.

Fat Guy's question is hard to answer. Most people, as he notes, do not invest thousands of dollars in becoming a regular at a restaurant like Daniel or Per Se. Those who do, probably aren't in a position to compare it to many others. By its nature, this is the type of investment you can only make in one place, unless you're one of those folks with the budget and the stomach for eating out practically all the time.

I've always found Fat Guy's suggestion intriguing (this isn't the first time he's made it), but I'd have an awfully empty feeling if I invested all that money, only to find I'd chosen the wrong one.

[ckkgourmet]

As there probably is a big difference between being a regular and being a regular who is also a major culinary personality or critic, I want to drop my 10 cents here. Perhaps I can present myself as a sort of "control" in this particular discussion, because I'm a total nobody in the dining world. No one has any reason to pay special attention to me apart from the fact that I care about food and I am a loyal patron. My opinion can have no real impact on the restaurant's popularity and bottom line.

I am what we might call a "regular" at Per Se at the moment (I've been there 3 or 4 times this Spring). They treat me exceptionally well, especially when I dine alone. I am often comped as many as 3 to 8 extra courses, and I have had great conversations with some of the waiters and other great professionals at the restaurant. I always enjoy superb service, but I think everyone does at Per Se. Even your pet dog would be treated like a god there.

I might also be considered a regular at the bar counter at L'Atelier de J. Robuchon, where I am frequently treated to an extra course, and sometimes (and this is even more interesting), newly invented dishes that are works "in progress." One extra privilege of regular status at L'Atelier is that the chef will sometimes "cook for you," if you so desire, meaning he'll construct an entirely novel menu, composed of things from both the tasting menu and his own imagination. The maitre d' here has a superb memory: he even remembers what I've had on previous visits. I haven't been back for about a month (I used to go every other week), but I am looking forward to seeing how the new chef is developing (I have solid hopes for Boyer, the new guy, and, yet, if it were still Suga at the helm, I'd be there all the time).

One can enjoy considerable benefits as a regular at Adour. Service is generally impeccable here, and they remember their regulars. Adour does some extras for me, too. For example, I generally order 2 or 3 additional desserts beyond the tasting menu, and knowing my sweet tooth, they sometimes comp another one or two, if I have room. If I come back lots in a season, and I'm tired of something on the tasting menu, they are willing to switch an item or even improvise another to accommodate me. (n.b. I haven't been back for perhaps 2 months: I used to go about once a month until I got on a Per Se kick).

I haven't found that I get quite the same treatment at Jean Georges where I go fairly often. JG is one of my favorite restaurants in the city, but it's food and service are more inconsistent, in my experience, than some other similarly important establishments. I don't recall having ever been comped in terms of courses, and I very rarely feel like I am remembered beyond the "Welcome back, Mr. so-and-so" line. Again, perhaps my visits are not quite regular enough to warrant their fullest attention. It's my impression, in any case, that this is place where one would do better if one were an actual celebrity or went there literally all the time. It's a bit of a scene.

I could speak of a few other places (Sugiyama, Cafe Boulud, WD-50), where regularity seems to count, but my experiences are now a bit in the past: I go much less regularly to any of them.

[sickchangeup]

I think this is a fascinating subject, because it's at the heart of where I chose to dine, and I have a number of thoughts:

- This question applies to every level of the dining spectrum. If your neighborhood Chinese place throws in a spring roll when you order delivery, brings you some fried rice unsolicited when you dine with a group, saves a prime location table for it's regulars etc... this all counts big time in my book. This is just as important as getting a secret backdoor reservation number to a McNally joint, or being served some canapes ahead of your 9 courses at Per Se.

- In the end it's about value. I've been a bunch to JG for lunch, and haven't a single complaint in the world that I haven't once been comped anything. On the other hand I only went once to dine at the bar at Veritas, spent over $200 ordering and wasn't thrown a bone of any sort. Three or four incredibly well dressed high level hosts/managers just sat around twiddling their thumbs with a nervous look on their face (in an almost entirely empty restaurant), no one had it in their mind to say "hey, maybe we want this guy to come back, how about a dessert on the house?" - it's all I need to know that this isn't the sort of place that has it in mind to "take care" of people. Which is fine, but to me, it means I haven't been back despite excellent food.

- In my experience, solo diners get a little extra love from the places that do take care of their regulars. Twice I've lunched solo at EMP, and both times they brought me something extra on the house, despite me not being any sort of regular (unless perhaps you roll up all my visits to the Meyer Empire I guess). It's gained them back at least twice that many additional subsequent lunch visits with my wife.

- Whether correct or not, I generally believe that "hot" & "trendy" places do not do anything extra for you. We have word on Ko, but I suspect the same for a place like Corton, or a place like Scarpetta. I would love to know if this bias is correct.

- Sushi restaurants are another area I am very curious about, specifically bar dining. Do house favors extend across cultures, and if so, does it follow a sort of tradition?

- I can say first hand that Per Se makes me literally shake my head in disbelief at the extra value they can provide upon request, and like ckkgourmet, I'm no one in particular. I've heard some pretty insane stories out of the Ducasse camp as well.

- I'd also say this doesn't count for truly huge ballers, people that drop a grand or more on a bottle of wine alone. Those people are a whole 'nother category!

[oakapple]

- Whether correct or not, I generally believe that "hot" & "trendy" places do not do anything extra for you.  We have word on Ko, but I suspect the same for a place like Corton, or a place like Scarpetta.  I would love to know if this bias is correct.

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I do not think you are correct, unless you are referring to "hot & trendy" restaurants run by exceptionally stupid people—and I don't think Corton and Scarpetta fit that description. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that "hot & trendy" does not last forever, and that they will eventually need to survive the way most restaurants do, on a solid backbone of loyal repeat visitors.

[David A. Goldfarb]

The most I've gotten out of being a regular is at the recently closed Filipino fusion restaurant, Cendrillon, a block or so away from FCI on Mercer St. just north of Grand. My wife is Filipino, and I'd heard about it, so we tried it in the late 1990s, maybe a year or two after they had opened. When we got married in 1999, we asked Romy Dorotan, the chef and owner with his wife, Amy Besa, to make his chocolate macadamia nut sansrival (Romy's spin on a popular Filipino version of a dacquoise) as our wedding cake.

We continued to eat there regularly, and Romy and Amy would always come and chat, and it turned out that my wife's family knew some of Amy's family, and Amy's mother had been one of my wife's mother's professors. We brought friends there who became regulars, and aside from the extra ice creams and special dishes Romy would bring us, Romy and Amy really have become good friends. I think they were that way with a lot of the regulars who came to the restaurant, and they created a real community of artists, writers, academics, and local merchants who met through Cendrillon.

On the last night they were open, the place was packed with regulars and friends all seated at communal tables. Here are some snapshots that convey some of the atmosphere--

http://www.echonyc.com/~goldfarb/cendrillon/

While their next restaurant, to be called "Purple Yam," in Ditmas Park, Brooklyn is under construction, their schedule is a bit more flexible than it was while they were running Cendrillon, so we had them and a mutual friend over to our place for dinner this past weekend.

Info on the opening of Purple Yam can be found at their website, www.cendrillon.com, and I also highly recommend their cookbook, Memories of Philippine Kitchens.

Edited June 21, 2009 by David A. Goldfarb (log)

[Fat Guy]

I've always found Fat Guy's suggestion intriguing (this isn't the first time he's made it), but I'd have an awfully empty feeling if I invested all that money, only to find I'd chosen the wrong one.

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That's why I started this topic: so that people in your position can get reliable testimony on where it makes sense to invest.

[Fat Guy]

- Whether correct or not, I generally believe that "hot" & "trendy" places do not do anything extra for you.  We have word on Ko, but I suspect the same for a place like Corton, or a place like Scarpetta.   I would love to know if this bias is correct.

I think there's a story for every restaurant. The situation at Ko is due not to its trendiness but to a firm stance that David Chang has taken on the issue of equality before the law of Ko. No special treatment in reservations. Everybody pays the same. Everybody gets the same meal. Soigne treatment at Ko means some of the cooks are nicer to you (others remain equally grouchy with all customers) and you may occasionally, at the end of the second sitting, be offered a glass of liquor from the shelf of accumulated liquor gifts that customers have brought in for the staff.

- Sushi restaurants are another area I am very curious about, specifically bar dining.   Do house favors extend across cultures, and if so, does it follow a sort of tradition?

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What I've found is that freebies are extremely rare in the traditional-sushi universe. You can get better treatment and better stuff if you're a regular -- but you'll pay for it. It also never hurts to buy the sushi chef a beer. It may make said chef more forthcoming with information about what's best that day, access to limited-inventory items, etc.

Incidentally, for everybody's benefit I should mention that a clever acquaintance recently bought a drink for one of the cooks at Momofuku Ko and received some appreciation in return. Shame on me for not thinking of that one first.

[Wemedge]

let me tell you honestly, danny meyer restaurants are the worst.

i have been to EMP and gramercy tavern each over 15 times, emp probably 30 times. less free stuff than most, for sure.

at places like jean georges, picholine, bouley, etc...... you get much more stuff for being a regular, like comp mid courses, comp champagne, comp desserts, comp dessert wine. hell even per se. but per se is in its own category.

[Wemedge]

speaking as an industry professional......

pretty much in a 3/4 star restaurant that is paying attention

if you spend over 600 dollars on a bottle of wine, you should immediately go into the restaurants opentable guest notes as "wine px/xp/vip, attn: wine director" and any time you come to dinner.... in the pre meal service meeting, it will be announced that you are coming and you will probably get free mid course/dessert/dessert wine/champagne and the best captain and the best table.

[sickchangeup]

"wine px/xp/vip, attn: wine director"

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what does "wine px/xp" stand for?

[Fat Guy]

I think it can be said that every restaurant has a baseline experience and a VIP-level experience. What I think happens in most cases is that, if the baseline experience is already very high and a great value, there's going to be less contrast with the VIP-level experience. The strength of the Union Square Hospitality Group restaurants is that they provide such a high-level and high-value baseline experience. This leaves them a bit less room to maneuver when it comes to VIP-level experiences. Which doesn't mean they can't or don't do anything. There's just less of a contrast than at, say, Daniel.

Per Se is an interesting exception, in that the baseline experience is so high yet there is still considerable room to maneuver above the baseline. I can't really think of another currently operating restaurant with that combination of baseline and headroom. Lespinasse was that way, as was Alain Ducasse at the Essex House.

There's also always room for evolution. Daniel is still wearing the albatross of many years ago, when the baseline experience could be kind of lame and the truly great experiences were rationed to VIPs. I've seen that from both angles over the years, depending on who I was eating with and where I was along my own career path. I'm under the impression that Daniel has made a lot of effort over the years to improve the baseline, such that these days the average customer does quite well.

[Fat Guy]

PX is just French for VIP. "Person extraordinaire." Some restaurants prefer to say "soigne" because it seems less hierarchical. (I believe XP is the same as PX.)

[Fat Guy]

Was it purely because of his status as a regular, or did your identity also play a role?

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As there probably is a big difference between being a regular and being a regular who is also a major culinary personality or critic

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Just a little background on where I'm coming from. I started dining out in earnest in about 1993, when I was interviewing for law-firm jobs. My first five years of serious restaurant dining and relationship building occurred before I'd ever published a word about food. Based on dozens if not hundreds of meals out during that period, I know about being a regular without any media taint.

In about 1998 I started doing what later became known as blogging about my restaurant meals. For the most part I still received no special treatment on account of that, because there was very little awareness of what I was doing. For the next five or so years, I experienced the occasional incidence of media-VIP treatment, but it was extremely rare.

For about the past five years, as I've published a couple of books, written for and been written about in magazines and newspapers, done the occasional TV or radio appearance and of course written quite a lot of eG Forums posts (and been the eGullet Society's most recognizable leader, even though other people actually run almost everything), I've moved firmly into the middle tier of media. In other words, I'm assigned more weight than the average food blogger and less weight than someone from the New York Times, a major magazine or another top-tier outlet. I know this because I've got years of experience of dining as a regular customer (which still often happens, especially outside of the small circle of three- and four-star restaurants where they routinely recognize people at my level of media), years of experience dining out as a middle-tier media VIP, and quite a few instances of experience dining out with A-list media like New York Times dining-section writers (including one critic), food-magazine editors and my best friend Alan Richman. So I think I know the lay of the land pretty well. In addition, restaurants tend to be forthright with me. They have no reason to engage in the whole double-secret recognition game they play with the mainstream critics, because there's no pretense of anonymity -- I'm not a mainstream critic playing by those rules.

In other words, I think I have a fairly accurate lay of the land when it comes to relationship building with restaurants, as well as the way restaurants treat media.

What I'd say is that, in the typical three- or four- (or high two-) star restaurant, if you're recognized media at my level what basically happens is that you get to skip the buy-in period. You get treated on your first visit the way customers who've been several times and spent a bunch of money get treated. Typically this means an extra plate or two of food, maybe some off-menu stuff, a glass of champagne, extra desserts, extra attention from management-level staff. Although it can vary a lot by restaurant, and in plenty of cases I still fly under the radar.

So that's where I'm coming from, for what it's worth.

There are other categories of instant VIPs. For example, chefs. If you're a respectable chef -- even a line cook at a restaurant of note -- you tend to get very well taken care of. If you're a significant chef on the global restaurant scene, you get unbelievable treatment -- far better than what any journalist gets. (I know. I've been at some of those meals too.) Then there are celebrities, as in major television and film personalities, big-deal politicians, rock stars, football players . . . they get instant VIP treatment in some restaurants, not in others. It depends on the culture of the restaurant.

It's also possible to get yourself some instant VIP treatment, even if you're none of the above. I've written about this plenty. Just being very interested, engaging and charming, especially on a slow night, can get you some soigne treatment. So can ordering a $1,000 bottle of wine.

[Wemedge]

double secret recognition.

very interesting.

i think the only two people in new york who would get "Double secret" attention are frank bruni and adam platt.

when cuozzo or gael green or alan richman or the unfortunate john mariani come to dinner, no one pretends, its no secret.

and its not only line cooks and chefs.....front of house in 3/4 star restaurants get treated like super PX when we dine out because we have the opportunity to talk about other restaurants to hundreds of our guests on a daily basis while line cooks only talk to other cooks.

[weinoo]

The restaurants where I'm a "regular" are much more about me being able to get a table at the last minute rather than what is sent out for free.

Those relationships were developed not by me spending $1000 for a bottle of wine, but by being a repeat visitor, treating the staff with the respect they deserve, and tipping properly.

[Fat Guy]

The restaurants where I'm a "regular" are much more about me being able to get a table at the last minute rather than what is sent out for free.

What you get for being a regular at a given restaurant is what I'm hoping to establish with this topic.

Some of the possibilities are:

- Access to reservations (last minute, at busy times, etc.)

- Your preference of table location

- Your table assigned better servers

- Comped food and/or drink

- Access to off-menu items

- Help with other reservations, e.g., the Maitre d' calls over to his Maitre d' buddy at some other restaurant, where you're not a regular, and gets you a table

- Invitations to private events

Those relationships were developed not by me spending $1000 for a bottle of wine, but by being a repeat visitor, treating the staff with the respect they deserve, and tipping properly.

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Those are basically the two ways to do it.

[slkinsey]

Yes, I have found that at "middlebrow" neighborhood restaurants where I do most of my dining, getting the first available table is one of the most tangible benefits of being a regular. Other than that, it's likely to be a comped glass of wine or a comped dessert following a table visit from the owner or an FOH higher-up. These are not restaurant where an "extra course" or a "dish in development" is a viable option, simply because these are not restaurants where people do multi-course dining, and they're not set up for the kind of constant menu turnover/evolution that other, higher-end restaurants have.

Some restaurants do this well. Henry's, our local up in the North end of the Upper West Side, treats us very well in this respect (nb. we had our wedding there, so they have pocketed multiple thousands of our dollars) -- although the extent of any special treatment will depend upon who is in the house, and all customers are treated very well there. In contrast, this is something that @SQC, another UWS middlebrow neighborhood restaurant, never did very well. @SQC is closed. Henry's was packed last night. You do the math.

[Fat Guy]

Right. At neighborhood places, tables, recognition and the occasional extra snack or sip -- and maybe an invitation to the anniversary party or whatever -- largely defines the universe of perks for regulars. And given the price point and the convenient location (by the standards of wherever one lives), if you get all that it's well worth the investment.

The destination restaurants generally have more capacity for VIP treatment, both front and back of the house, so if you're investing in those places you can hope for more. If you find a destination restaurant that isn't offering that level of front-to-back benefit for regulars, there needs to be a good reason or the restaurant is likely to lose the business of anyone who's familiar with the standard perks.

A good example of a situation where it's not particularly necessary to offer VIP perks is the Jean Georges lunch service. There, everybody who walks in is already essentially being given a loss-leader lunch. There's no benefit to the restaurant if you come every day and eat that free lunch. If you're ordering expensive wine with lunch, the picture changes.

[Sneakeater]

I'm under the impression that Daniel has made a lot of effort over the years to improve the baseline, such that these days the average customer does quite well.

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That certainly has been my recent experience.

It's already been mentioned, but it should be emphasized: Ssam Bar.

[Sneakeater]

Just being very interested, engaging and charming, especially on a slow night, can get you some soigne treatment.

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FG hardly needs my endorsement on this point, but it's SO true.

I've also gotten good results going out with a concierge at a major hotel. Then, you get PXed even when you come back without her.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

As a starting point, here are the lists of current four- and three-star restaurants from the New York Times website. So, who has experience as a regular, or dining with a regular, at these places? Let's try to flesh out the list a bit. Of course, if there are additional restaurants to discuss, we should add those. This is just an easy way to get the ball rolling.

NYT four-star restaurants

Daniel

Jean Georges

Le Bernardin

Masa

Per Se

NYT three-star restaurants

Adour Alain Ducasse

Alto

A Voce

Babbo

Bar Room at the Modern

BLT Fish

Blue Hill

Bouley

Café Boulud

Convivio

Corton

Cru

Del Posto

Dovetail

Eleven Madison Park

Esca

Felidia

Gramercy Tavern

L’Atelier de Joël Robuchon

Le Cirque

Matsugen

Minetta Tavern

Momofuku Ko

Momofuku Ssam Bar

Nobu 57

Oceana

Perry St.

Picholine

Scarpetta

Sushi Yasuda

wd-50

[ELA]

Where? Meaning, specifically where? I would think it would help at Rao's. Il Mulino. Numerous others. LOL. All the places you can't get a reservation at.

In all seriousness, great thread.

Eric