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Big Apple Barbecue Block Party 2009


Fat Guy
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One more opinion. It was a total madhouse yesterday, even with the fast pass. Maybe it's time to limit how many orders one person can pick up (sort of like they do with drinks at the stadiums) so that the lines actually move.

Salt Lick, as noted before, was out of food by 3 PM. Unconscionable.

We also waited on another line for brisket (on 26th St) that ran out as we got to the front. And I heard other stories of food running out - that's not good when the event goes till 7 PM.

Martin's potato rolls, which a lot of the whole hog/pulled pork shoulder people use, are really not the greatest conveyors for que. They're much better when toasted, and in this venue they simply subtract from the product.

Regarding the pulled pork/whole hog bbq, I find that almost invariably they lack the smoke flavor I'm really looking for in my bbq. More flavor comes from whatever combo of vinegar/sugar is being used as the meat is chopped, but unless you get some outside pieces, the smoke is very light indeed.

Curiously enough (or maybe not so curious) our favorite of the day was Blue Smoke's St. Louis ribs. They were big, meaty, smoky and succulent - everything one could ask for from bbq spareribs. Perhaps the fact that they're local makes it easier for them? And the fact that they're simply focusing on thousands of pounds of ribs - either way, they were great - and the okra pickles served with them were really good too.

So, has the Big Apple BBQ come down to this - other than Mike Mills and a few others, the best bbq being offered is Hill Country for brisket and Blue Smoke for their St. Louis style spareribs? Two NYC bbq joints.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

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Interesting to look at the curve of foodie interest in this event. Here are the total posts in the BABBP threads from various years as of nighttime on the second day:

2003 (first year): 28

2004: 72

2005: 103

2006: 75

2007: 64

2008: 53

2009 (so far): 26

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Interesting to look at the curve of foodie interest in this event.  Here are the total posts in the BABBP threads from various years as of nighttime on the second day:

2003 (first year): 28

2004: 72

2005: 103

2006: 75

2007: 64

2008: 53

2009 (so far): 26

Should it be "will foodies put up with the bullshit of the Big Apple BBQ just to sample some far-away que, when NYC provides better examples of some of said que?"

Without the agita.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

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Some of that's in the eye of the beholder. I wouldn't say that anyplace in NYC does brisket that competes with Salt Lick's, and certainly no one does pulled shoulder that competes with Big Bob Gibson's or even approaches Ed Wilson's whole hog.

I think it's rather a reflection of the fact that it's become an increasingly huge pain in the ass, and that whereas few NYC-based foodies had even had good barbecue, nevermind excellent barbecue, that's no longer the case six years later. The result is less overall excitement and willingness to endure hours-long waits on line or devote an entire weekend to eating barbecue.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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I didn't go yesterday, but went today from 12:30pm to 2:00pm. Little to no waits with a FastPass although I didn't even consider Salt Lick.

Walked right up to 17th Street/Mike Mills station (only two people in line in front of me).

After that, grabbed some sandwiches from Big Bob Gibson/Chris Lilly and waited maybe five minutes total. The sandwiches also seemed unusually generous, mounds of meat falling out of the bun.

Then it was off to The Pit/Ed Mitchell's where the line was maybe ten minutes. Fiance even went back for seconds.

Then we split a sausage from Jim'n'Nick's. I really loved the combination of the sausage, cheese, sauce, jalapeno pepper, and saltine.

Our friend went back to 17th Street to get some ribs to taken home. He was gone for about 15 minutes.

After two $5 lemonades from Eleven Madison Park, I thought briefly about trying Martin's whole hog or Pappy's ribs, but the crowds had become really thick, so we left around 2pm. The dessert selection seemed a bit anemic compared to last year with only watermelon and brownies available. No pie?

I gifted the $4 remains of our Pass to a family with two strollers and a dog.

Overall, my experience was perfect. Someone on Gothamist that a lot of the overcrowding on the streets and sidewalk area was due to the lawns in the park being off limits. It did seem off to me, as I recall previous years feeling like one giant picnic on the grass. The sidewalk area was a bit hectic, especially on Madison Avenue, where the picnic tables are. Things were a definitely less crazy towards 26th Street.

Edited by kathryn (log)
"I'll put anything in my mouth twice." -- Ulterior Epicure
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Some of that's in the eye of the beholder.  I wouldn't say that anyplace in NYC does brisket that competes with Salt Lick's, and certainly no one does pulled shoulder that competes with Big Bob Gibson's or even approaches Ed Wilson's whole hog.

I think it's rather a reflection of the fact that it's become an increasingly huge pain in the ass, and that whereas few NYC-based foodies had even had good barbecue, nevermind excellent barbecue, that's no longer the case six years later.  The result is less overall excitement and willingness to endure hours-long waits on line or devote an entire weekend to eating barbecue.

True - especially when some of what's available in the city is better than what some of these traveling cue-ers are able to dish up 1,000 miles from home.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

Tasty Travails - My Blog

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We arrived today with 4 ppl and a plan...and it actually worked!

By 11:10 we were comfortabley seated at a table with 2 orders of 17th St Ribs - 2 Big Bob Gibson sandwiches and sauces - 3 Ed Mitchel sandwiches - and 2 orders from Salt Lick. After polishing off most of that I headed to Martin's for 2 more sandwiches.

Ed Mitchel will always be way up there but the Big Bob's sandwiches may have taken top honors this year and my first taste of those Salt Lick sausage has me thinking Texas.

Finished off the day (so far) with a nice warm egg tart in China Town, and a beer in Little Italy

Tracey

Edited by rooftop1000 (log)

The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

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I think it's rather a reflection of the fact that it's become an increasingly huge pain in the ass, and that whereas few NYC-based foodies had even had good barbecue, nevermind excellent barbecue, that's no longer the case six years later.  The result is less overall excitement and willingness to endure hours-long waits on line or devote an entire weekend to eating barbecue.

This assumes that less online discussion reflects lowered attendance, at least from within the relevant group (overall, of course, attendance goes up every year). That's one possibility but I'm not sure if there's evidence one way or the other. It could just as easily be that the same number of people from our subculture are attending, but they feel there's less to discuss. After all the event each year has become mostly repetitive of the previous year, with the addition of a few new vendors and other minor changes that only insiders really take note of. So there's less of a feeling of being at a new happening, and more of a feeling of making one more visit to an annual event.

Speaking for myself, I feel like there are only so many photos I can take of Ed Mitchell, the archive is there, it's gratuitous to photograph and post photos of Ed, Ed's brothers, Ed's son, the pigs going on the pit, me with Ed, yet again. That his restaurant is now the Pit in Raleigh instead of Mitchell's in Wilson is not terribly relevant to the Big Apple Barbecue experience. Overall, these days I mostly go to enjoy, see some of what's new, say hello to the people I've met in previous iterations of the event, and generally act like "I was coming to this before it was cool."

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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My son and I just got home from a great weekend in the City predicated on the BABBQ. We had a great time, primarily because we arrived just before 11AM this morning when there were absolutely zero crowds and plenty of food. We started at Bob Gibson's, then Ed Mitchell before heading to Mike Mills. We also sampled Jim'n'Nick's, Dinosaur, Martin's before finishing absolutely stuffed at Blue Smoke. I would agree that the NY places hold their own, but it is still fun to sample some of the stars around the country. We didn't have a bad bite. It was also fun to see some old friends and meet others previously known only virtually.

The crowds that built as the day progressed would indicate that this event's popularity is not on the wane. I agree with Steven, that there simply isn't as much to discuss without rehashing previous years' discussions. Nevertheless, i hope to attend this annually.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

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It could just as easily be that the same number of people from our subculture are attending, but they feel there's less to discuss.

This is certainly part of it. Obviously overall interest is high. But I just don't get the same sense of ecstatic enthusiasm that the BABBP engendered in the foodie community in years 2, 3, and 4 when it was at fever pitch. But, then again, as I said before, barbecue of this quality was virtually unknown to most NYC-area foodies during those years.

Since the first BABBP, we have seen the opening of Dinosaur Barbecue (2004), R.U.B. (2005), Rack & Soul (2006) and Hill Country (2007), not to mention serious improvement at Blue Smoke. It's just not as exceptional anymore for New Yorkers. I mean, to put this in context, a lot of my foodie friends were pretty ecstatic when Virgil's opened however many years ago, and most wouldn't deign to eat there now.

A point of comparison might be the iPhone. Tons of people still buy them and tons of early-adopter types and Mac addicts still buy the latest models. But there just isn't the buzz that there was in 2007 when they came out.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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It could just as easily be that the same number of people from our subculture are attending, but they feel there's less to discuss.

This is certainly part of it. Obviously overall interest is high. But I just don't get the same sense of ecstatic enthusiasm that the BABBP engendered in the foodie community in years 2, 3, and 4 when it was at fever pitch. But, then again, as I said before, barbecue of this quality was virtually unknown to most NYC-area foodies during those years.

Since the first BABBP, we have seen the opening of Dinosaur Barbecue (2004), R.U.B. (2005), Rack & Soul (2006) and Hill Country (2007), not to mention serious improvement at Blue Smoke. It's just not as exceptional anymore for New Yorkers. I mean, to put this in context, a lot of my foodie friends were pretty ecstatic when Virgil's opened however many years ago, and most wouldn't deign to eat there now.

A point of comparison might be the iPhone. Tons of people still buy them and tons of early-adopter types and Mac addicts still buy the latest models. But there just isn't the buzz that there was in 2007 when they came out.

There is always more to be said about something that is new and novel. It is still a great event if one times it right. Getting there 1st thing made a huge difference, especially this year with the expanded hours.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

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While the overall improvement in New York-area barbecue makes local barbecue lovers less desperate, it also has probably increased overall local interest in and knowledge about barbecue. One may also be able to credit both the Big Apple Barbecue and Blue Smoke with helping to create the conditions and audience for that overall improvement. That has always been the vision of the Union Square Hospitality Group people, at least. That's a big part of why they take a huge financial risk each year in order to promote not only their own restaurant, and not only big-name pitmasters from all over, but also their local competition.

I think that barbecue in New York in general has settled into sort of a middle period. When there was nothing good, anything remotely good was a source of much excitement in the community of leading-edge eaters. Now that the bar has been raised, it's hard to generate excitement. Hill Country was probably the last big opening to generate major excitement. You just didn't see that kind of enthusiasm when, say, Wildwood opened. So yes, overall excitement on the leading edge is palpably down.

At the same time, with the exception of just a few people I can think of, I saw all the same old people at the Big Apple Barbecue this year. It's just that they were behaving differently. The bloggers and other online people did their jobs with the early iterations of the event. We took photographs, we made video, we wrote exhaustively. Now they have big-deal professional photographers and television crews all over the place. You can't go far without tripping over that Japanese TV crew. And what there was to write has mostly been written. Not to mention, now it's the Snapple Big Apple Barbecue Block Party, and there's the Every Day with Rachael Ray tent etc. It has scaled up in every way.

I do think there's a bit of the "We were there at the beginning, we liked the old Stones better," sort of effect going on, as you see with any niche thing that goes mainstream. But in the end it's still a pretty great event if you attack it strategically.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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This assumes that less online discussion reflects lowered attendance, at least from within the relevant group (overall, of course, attendance goes up every year). That's one possibility but I'm not sure if there's evidence one way or the other. It could just as easily be that the same number of people from our subculture are attending, but they feel there's less to discuss.

It could also be that many of those who commented in the past are not as active (or active at all) on these boards.

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Getting there 1st thing made a huge difference, especially this year with the expanded hours.

My biggest problem with this is that I just can't seem to gear up and be ready to sample 4 or 5 different kinds of bbq at 11 in the morning.

I did have a strategy this year of bringing a whole bunch of take-out containers to bring some stuff home and eat it later - but I was so aggravated by the lines at 2 PM that the strategy fell by the wayside.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

Tasty Travails - My Blog

My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs

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On drizzly midday Saturday, which helped cut some lines, I too liked Patrick Martin's whole-hog sandwiches. My group of six started there since Ed Mitchell had disappointed us last year when we got three plates from his booth, which had minced the meat so finely it had become as bland as canned tuna. But Martin's pork turned out to be dark, rich in smoke, and pulled into long strands. A fine start.

Then my friends and I took shifts with my express card, bringing back more 'cue. Hill Country was shockingly skimpy, giving us only three thin strips of brisket. No wonder its line was the shortest at that time/day. Mike Mills'/ 17th Street's ribs wowed us all: tender meat, gentle but adequate smoke, and the perfect minimum of glaze. Those were my gf's first smoked ribs, too -- a great personal start for her. Drew Robinson's/Jim 'N Nick's spicy sausage, cut obscenely long, was our day's winner, though the pimento cheese and saltines were a weird wash. Michael Rodriguez's/Salt Lick's sausage, savory much less spicy and a bit shorter, impressed almost as much.

On Sunday, two of us went back to use up my card, got two plates from Ed Mitchell, and it was very good this time, chopped instead of minced. His slicers were giving away lots of skin -- smoked a second time after removal from the meat -- to the streetside traffic, a big crowd-pleaser.

slkinsey, thanks for the stats. The other non-Ch food board I'm on doesn't seem to have an active item for this at all. I hope interest continues to wane, shortening the lines.

I stole from one of the booths in a fit of pique that the barbecue community didn't deserve. The booth's express side turned out to have one short line for paying and a second line for pickup. The second line was very slow, thanks to a plodding slicer and the servers sending many more plates to the regular line. Meanwhile, I couldn't unpunch my card, some rain was starting, and I was still annoyed by Hill Country's cheap serving. So on this later booth's second line I said I'd ordered two plates, not one, which was unethical. I don't expect it to restore any cosmic balance, but later on I passed around my Lipitor in case the people around me wanted a free hit.

Since sharing the card worked even better than it had for me last year, next year I plan to take more people earlier and encourage them to wander looking at the different smokers and prep tables, instead of expecting them to rush back to feed the group.

Edited by jkarpf (log)
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I went on both days, and as everyone has said (and predicted), Saturday was a mess and Sunday pretty civilized. Armed with a fast pass and a stack of takeout containers, I tried most of what was there, some more than once. As always there were some hits and some misses but the overall standard was high.

I got The Pit's whole hog both days, and as in the past I've found the place to be very variable. On Saturday the texture was terrific but it was extremely underseasoned; Sunday the vinegar sauce had really taken hold in the pork and it lived up to its reputation. Patrick Martin's whole hog was also good, and the pre-constructed cole slaw and hog sandwich looked weird but worked. Sadly their pickles didn't make it to NYC.

I'd always skipped Ubon's, which I now consider a major error. I'm not all that into barbecue sauces, so I won't rate their "Champion's Choice" sauce beyond saying that it seemed pretty good, but I really liked the very smoky meat, which had a good bit of crispy skin mixed into it. Big Bob Gibson's was also excellent, although they seemed curiously reluctant to promote the white sauce, which I'd thought was their hallmark. The lone bottle was out of reach and when I asked for it the woman overseeing the sauce area poured a tiny amount into a little plastic cup rather than offering me the bottle.

Dinosaur Bar-B-Que's pulled work was well cooked, but they'd drenched it in sauce rather than just having bottles out, so it wasn't great for my sauce-liking-but-not-loving taste. And while I liked that they had bits of pork in their baked beans, the beans were inedibly sweet. BlackJack BBQ's pulled pork was the weakest of the lot, without a lot of flavor in the meat and served with a very spicy sauce that overwhelmed it. I like spicy foods a lot, but it didn't work here.

I was thoroughly unimpressed with Baker's tough, dry ribs, which didn't have enough flavor to make up for the poor execution. Pappy's were much better, although very fatty. And I really don't get all the love for Mike Mills. They were cooked extremely well, and I liked that they're doing something offbeat with the beans, but the flavors didn't seem to be there.

I was a fan of Jim 'n' Nick's smoked sausage with pimento cheese although I'm still not sure whether they were intended to all be eaten together or not. The sausage was on the dry side but the flavors more than made up for it, and I thought the pimento cheese was really tasty.

I went by the Salt Lick at around 2:30 Saturday, when they'd already run out of brisket and were getting low on sausage as well, where they gave out two pieces of sausage to make up for the missing brisket. I suppose they misjudged demand but having come up here for years, it's hard to see how they could have been THAT wrong. As always their sausage was one of the real highlights of the event, although the brisket, when I returned Sunday, was a distant second behind Ed Wilson's outstanding version. Wilson's was pretty fatty, but had great smoky flavor and was much more tender than the Salt Lick's.

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I think that barbecue in New York in general has settled into sort of a middle period. When there was nothing good, anything remotely good was a source of much excitement in the community of leading-edge eaters. Now that the bar has been raised, it's hard to generate excitement. Hill Country was probably the last big opening to generate major excitement. You just didn't see that kind of enthusiasm when, say, Wildwood opened.

Wildwood is a Stephen Hanson place, and therefore inherently derivative. I mean, he explicitly touted that he had hired a pitmaster from Hill Country. On top of that, Wildwood is a mongrel, not wedded to mastering any particular barbecue style. There's just no way that it could have generated the kind of excitement as Hill Country, just as a Peter Luger clone (even a good one) isn't going to generate the same excitement as Luger itself.

I am actually surprised that there haven't been any new "category killer" BBQ places since Hill Country. It seems (to my relatively untrained eye) that if you're a restaurant investor, barbecue is a pretty safe bet, as these places tend to be pretty successful, and they don't require a multi-million dollar Adam Tihany décor.

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Getting there 1st thing made a huge difference, especially this year with the expanded hours.

My biggest problem with this is that I just can't seem to gear up and be ready to sample 4 or 5 different kinds of bbq at 11 in the morning.

You are not the only one, which is why it makes a huge difference. :wink: My son and I were quite full by 1PM.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

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(Thanks to a press pass and some very generous vendors, the only out-of-pocket expenses we incurred were for tacos at El Verano Taqueria, which we thought were fair.)

. . . I also got to Jim 'n Nick's for their smoked pork sausage.  They kept running out of food and stalling the line, so this was a bit of a chore.  I like most any sausage, and this was no exception, but I was underwhelmed.  It is nothing special.  The pimento cheese with saltines is kind of worthless imo (although I'd like to see more vendors get away from beans or slaw) . . .

I sampled Jim 'n' Nick's first thing Sunday. Like zEli173, I don't understand the attraction. The sausage itself was dry and lacked a good smoky backbone to support mild seasoning. The sauce was excellent, but you shouldn't rely on sauce to dress up product. The pimento cheese was good.

. . . I'm disappointed that I still have never had a great pork rib at the BABBP.  I've never liked Mike Mills's ribs (I know others love them) although I do like his beans.  Baker's I've already vented about.  Blue Smoke is not so impressive (I wish they'd bring back the chicken from two years ago that I passed on but heard great reports about -- there is so much pork at the festival I think they could use a vendor doing great chicken and they should definitely have one vendor doing something exotic like mutton as mentioned up thread).  I do really like Rack 'n Soul; they make a tasty baby back rib that it great for what it it, but it's not the 'real' bbq rib I am wanting for.  I'm hopeful that Pappy's will put my gripe to bed when I get there today.

What constitutes a 'real' bbq rib to you? I didn't have every example on offer, but it seemed to me that most styles were represented, with of course the exception:

I'm also let down that the organizers have still not added a representative from Kansas City.  That's always been a big hole in the lineup.

Agreed on both counts, though Blue Smoke does a very respectable version of KC ribs.

Some of that's in the eye of the beholder.  I wouldn't say that anyplace in NYC does brisket that competes with Salt Lick's, and certainly no one does pulled shoulder that competes with Big Bob Gibson's or even approaches Ed Wilson's whole hog.

I think it's rather a reflection of the fact that it's become an increasingly huge pain in the ass, and that whereas few NYC-based foodies had even had good barbecue, nevermind excellent barbecue, that's no longer the case six years later.  The result is less overall excitement and willingness to endure hours-long waits on line or devote an entire weekend to eating barbecue.

The value of the BABBQBP is the opportunity to sample a bunch of product and compare styles in close proximity. That's something that even people who live in barbecue country (such as it is, with the regional emphases that barbecue engenders) can't do. Where else could you sample two versions of whole-hog, four different shoulders, three briskets, etc., all in the same day? (I'm not sure I agree that Salt Lick is better than Hill Country. Also, the cucumber salad at Hill Country gets my vote for best side.)

. . . some of what's available in the city is better than what some of these traveling cue-ers are able to dish up 1,000 miles from home.

I agree, though one must keep in mind the "90% of everything is crap" rule.

Getting there 1st thing made a huge difference, especially this year with the expanded hours.

My biggest problem with this is that I just can't seem to gear up and be ready to sample 4 or 5 different kinds of bbq at 11 in the morning.

Wimp.

Dave Scantland
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What constitutes a 'real' bbq rib to you? I didn't have every example on offer, but it seemed to me that most styles were represented, with of course the exception:
I'm also let down that the organizers have still not added a representative from Kansas City.  That's always been a big hole in the lineup.

Agreed on both counts, though Blue Smoke does a very respectable version of KC ribs.

Right. They don't have anyone from KC, but they do have a representative. I'm actually not convinced that KC represents a style of barbecue, per se, so much as it represents a style of barbecue sauce and a characteristic way of using it. Including someone from KC would be good because there are great places there, but I'm not convinced that it leaves a stylistic hole in the BABBP lineup

To my mind, the glaring stylistic omission is Owensboro mutton barbecue.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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The issue with a lot of the niche regional styles is that the BABBP organizers haven't been able to find purveyors with the experience with catering at a remote location on the required scale, who aren't otherwise booked at competitions that weekend, etc. I'm sure they'd be thrilled to have representatives of additional styles.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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