Butter blends

[Tri2Cook]

The boss, at the urging of a sales rep, is pushing for me to at least be willing to try a "euro style butter blend" (butter/margarine blend, unsalted, fat 83%) for baking. Butter is up to $4.64 lb.individuals/ $4.18 lb bulk for unsalted ($5.19 lb at the grocery store) here and the blend is $1.75 lb. I'm not happy with the idea. I'm not completely unwilling to negotiate some things but I'm a stubborn b#$%#*d when it comes to my baking/desserts and real butter. Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Right now my only defense is that we'd have to commit to a 36 lb. box to try it... but she's pushing the rep for samples.

[theabroma]

The boss, at the urging of a sales rep, is pushing for me to at least be willing to try a "euro style butter blend" (butter/margarine blend, unsalted, fat 83%) for baking. Butter is up to $4.64 lb.individuals/ $4.18 lb bulk for unsalted ($5.19 lb at the grocery store) here and the blend is $1.75 lb. I'm not happy with the idea. I'm not completely unwilling to negotiate some things but I'm a stubborn b#$%#*d when it comes to my baking/desserts and real butter. Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Right now my only defense is that we'd have to commit to a 36 lb. box to try it... but she's pushing the rep for samples.

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My experience with it in rolled in doughs, and any other product using any appreciable amount of butter, is that it still leaves the mouthfeel (read: lingering coating effect) of other non-saturated fats. It will melt better at body temp than margarine, but there is still that coating effect. So, in fudgy brownies, you might be able to get away with it ... but you wouldn't want to be using really good chocolate in that mix, either - or so it seems to me. And French or mousseline buttercream? Fiyek! Forget it.

Patisserie, to me, is and should always be a fine, ethereal, joyous treat. It is, undeniably, a calorie-bomb. But its exquisiteness relies so very much in the quality of ingredients used ... the really good stuff is like a catsuit - there is no place to hide bad fat, poor quality flour, and low-grade chocolate.

So cut the portions, be clever about the ratio of butter-dependent items on the plate, rejig your plates and their costs, or find other ways to produce fine quality pastry (search for pastries from non-butterfat consuming cultures), but once you begin cutting corners with the very cornerstones of the art, you find yourself producing palate-assaulting knockoffs.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Theabroma

[Chris Hennes]

I guess I don't really see the harm in trying it. Of course, I think we all anticipate the final result, but if your boss is dead-set on giving it a shot, why not just do a side-by-side comparison? My guess is that the 100% butter product will come out well ahead of the competition, and then you've got your "ammo." And if in some products there is no real difference, then what's the real harm? Save some money, no quality loss: win-win.

[Tri2Cook]

The boss, at the urging of a sales rep, is pushing for me to at least be willing to try a "euro style butter blend" (butter/margarine blend, unsalted, fat 83%) for baking. Butter is up to $4.64 lb.individuals/ $4.18 lb bulk for unsalted ($5.19 lb at the grocery store) here and the blend is $1.75 lb. I'm not happy with the idea. I'm not completely unwilling to negotiate some things but I'm a stubborn b#$%#*d when it comes to my baking/desserts and real butter. Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Right now my only defense is that we'd have to commit to a 36 lb. box to try it... but she's pushing the rep for samples.

←

My experience with it in rolled in doughs, and any other product using any appreciable amount of butter, is that it still leaves the mouthfeel (read: lingering coating effect) of other non-saturated fats. It will melt better at body temp than margarine, but there is still that coating effect. So, in fudgy brownies, you might be able to get away with it ... but you wouldn't want to be using really good chocolate in that mix, either - or so it seems to me. And French or mousseline buttercream? Fiyek! Forget it.

Patisserie, to me, is and should always be a fine, ethereal, joyous treat. It is, undeniably, a calorie-bomb. But its exquisiteness relies so very much in the quality of ingredients used ... the really good stuff is like a catsuit - there is no place to hide bad fat, poor quality flour, and low-grade chocolate.

So cut the portions, be clever about the ratio of butter-dependent items on the plate, rejig your plates and their costs, or find other ways to produce fine quality pastry (search for pastries from non-butterfat consuming cultures), but once you begin cutting corners with the very cornerstones of the art, you find yourself producing palate-assaulting knockoffs.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Theabroma

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Thanks for that. That's exactly how I feel about it, that it's kinda like sneaking some imitation crab into the crabcakes along with the real stuff. I would refuse to use it in buttercreams and things of that nature regardless but I don't even want to use it in my baked items. I'm unhappy enough with the idea that I'm considering absorbing part of the cost difference out of my own pocket if it comes down to a choice. I'm not famous around here or anything crazy like that but what reputation my desserts/pastries do have is based largely on the fact that I do everything with the best ingredients I can get.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Tri2Cook (log)

[Tri2Cook]

Chris, I considered that side of it too but you have to understand the personality I'm dealing with. Once it's in the door, unless it just absolutely makes her say "yuck", I'll be stuck with it. She's a great person to work for in general but she's very difficult to argue with once she decides on something. Very difficult.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Tri2Cook (log)

[CaliPoutine]

The boss, at the urging of a sales rep, is pushing for me to at least be willing to try a "euro style butter blend" (butter/margarine blend, unsalted, fat 83%) for baking. Butter is up to $4.64 lb.individuals/ $4.18 lb bulk for unsalted ($5.19 lb at the grocery store) here and the blend is $1.75 lb. I'm not happy with the idea. I'm not completely unwilling to negotiate some things but I'm a stubborn b#$%#*d when it comes to my baking/desserts and real butter. Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Right now my only defense is that we'd have to commit to a 36 lb. box to try it... but she's pushing the rep for samples.

←

My experience with it in rolled in doughs, and any other product using any appreciable amount of butter, is that it still leaves the mouthfeel (read: lingering coating effect) of other non-saturated fats. It will melt better at body temp than margarine, but there is still that coating effect. So, in fudgy brownies, you might be able to get away with it ... but you wouldn't want to be using really good chocolate in that mix, either - or so it seems to me. And French or mousseline buttercream? Fiyek! Forget it.

Patisserie, to me, is and should always be a fine, ethereal, joyous treat. It is, undeniably, a calorie-bomb. But its exquisiteness relies so very much in the quality of ingredients used ... the really good stuff is like a catsuit - there is no place to hide bad fat, poor quality flour, and low-grade chocolate.

So cut the portions, be clever about the ratio of butter-dependent items on the plate, rejig your plates and their costs, or find other ways to produce fine quality pastry (search for pastries from non-butterfat consuming cultures), but once you begin cutting corners with the very cornerstones of the art, you find yourself producing palate-assaulting knockoffs.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Theabroma

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Thanks for that. That's exactly how I feel about it, that it's kinda like sneaking some imitation crab into the crabcakes along with the real stuff. I would refuse to use it in buttercreams and things of that nature regardless but I don't even want to use it in my baked items. I'm unhappy enough with the idea that I'm considering absorbing part of the cost difference out of my own pocket if it comes down to a choice. I'm not famous around here or anything crazy like that but what reputation my desserts/pastries do have is based largely on the fact that I do everything with the best ingredients I can get.

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Hahaha, this sounds so similar. I was doing a lot of baking for a caterer in London and he asked me to use shortening in the buttercream. I refused. I told him to raise the price a bit because the mouthfeel of shortening and the like is horrible.

I was selling out daily on my blueberry scones( all butter). He asked me to use some shortening in with the butter. Its a CI recipe so I said No. I can't put my name behind something I dont believe in. Its funny though, my boss would run to MI to buy tons of butter/cream at Costco but we'd still have to buy some butter in town.

[dougal]

Are the products being promoted as "All Butter"? (If not, why not, I wonder...)

And if they are, then of course that'll have to change.

Which may change the achievable selling price.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that, in Europe, "All Butter" doesn't sell at a higher price.

A "euro style butter blend" - pah!

Much will depend on what market 'the boss' thinks she is in.

Up market or down market?

[paulraphael]

Once it's in the door, unless it just absolutely makes her say "yuck", I'll be stuck with it.

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That shouldn't be hard to arrange

[Pam R]

Are the products being promoted as "All Butter"? (If not, why not, I wonder...)

Good question. Are they?

I don't have any experience with the butter blends, but I bake some pretty great things with good quality margarine due to dietary restrictions. Don't assume that the quality will go down in everything if you switch. Sure, certain things like buttercream need butter. But many baked items will be just fine.

[Tri2Cook]

Once it's in the door, unless it just absolutely makes her say "yuck", I'll be stuck with it.

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That shouldn't be hard to arrange

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There is that.

Thanks everybody. We don't actually sell pastries off the shelf. It's all for catering jobs and the restaurant (which is not upscale, just your basic "family restaurant" type place except that I also have a pizza oven and do pizzas for which I make my own white and whole wheat doughs and my own sauce... they actually have begun to comprise a large part of our business so I'm glad I started doing them). I'm feeling more calm now, I think I'm going to take the "my way or I just won't do them" approach but with a less challenging way of wording it so it doesn't turn from a discussion to an argument.

[Tri2Cook]

Crisis averted. I told the boss that if we try it and I'm not happy with the results I won't use it... even if she is happy with the results. I also told the sales rep that if I wasn't happy with the way it compared to butter in taste, mouthfeel, etc. I would be sending it back. He suggested we stay with butter.

[CaliPoutine]

Just an FYI, Loblaws has Gay Lea unsalted and salted on sale( till tomorrow) for 2.88lb

[Tri2Cook]

Thanks for the heads-up. No store by that name anywhere near here though.

[sanrensho]

Just an FYI, Loblaws has Gay Lea unsalted and salted on sale( till tomorrow) for 2.88lb

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Wow. I don't think I have ever seen unsalted butter sold here at those prices. (Gay Lea is not sold out west, and no Loblaws, only Superstore.)

[Kerry Beal]

Check Valumart if you have one. It's the same price at Fortino's which is part of the Loblaw's chain.

[CaliPoutine]

FYI, Shopper's Drug Mart has salted and unsalted TOMORROW( SATURDAY) only for 1.99lb.

[Tri2Cook]

Thanks for another heads up Randi. I'm in the process of pushing the rep to work with me a bit on the butter thing. I'm going to tighten the screws until I get a lock on the current price. Dairy is going insane here so even some long term stability would be good enough for me. I know the drill... you just have to keep pushing through the "I can't" until you get an "I can". Once you reach the "maybe" or "if you do this" stage you're golden because "maybe" means they can, they just don't want to.

[Dave the Cook]

How is your supply chain structured, Tri2Cook? I ask because when I was in purchasing, I found that I could sometimes make a deal for a product I wanted but didn't want to take a beating on: 1) The rep would agree to my price for the commodity I wanted; 2) I agreed to buy something else he had without haggling, as long as the price was reasonable.

Dairy is tougher than some things because it's so specialized, but I might agree to buy eggs from the dairy guy instead of the chicken guy, if I could get creme fraiche at a better price (this was the 70s). Bonus: about a week would pass, and the chicken guy would call wanting to know what he could do to get my egg business back.