Kids in Restaurants in France

[Alberts]

This is a fun read.

But let's face it, having an episode of your own unruly children in a restaurant is a right of passage of parenting. I don't care how great your kids are, sometimes they are not.

My kids are reasonably well-behaved, I suppose. Out of necessity, and occasionally out of enjoyment we go to nice places. They usually do okay, but they are kids, and I agree, kids will be kids and kids are a fact of life.

I am often amused at the sort of undertones about poor parenting that I sense. Remember what Bruno Bettelheim said "you just have to be a good enough parent, that's all.

Parents should be responsible about when and where they bring their kids, within reason. If you don't want to be around kids, however, I would suggest trying Mars.

We are going to Paris tomorrow. Kids in a restaurant?..fine. Dogs? Yuck.

[Pan]

[...]

We are going to Paris tomorrow. Kids in a restaurant?..fine. Dogs? Yuck.

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Come to terms with it, or you won't enjoy dining in Paris. Anyway, the dogs in restaurants are also well-behaved.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Pan (log)

[bleudauvergne]

I have seen a dog actually given a chair across from it's owner at an outdoor cafe in Vienne. I suspect this was a long time regular. I took a photo but it was a print.

I think, like in any culture, you're going to have examples falling acoss the spectrum. For example, one of my French family members won't eat cheese, anything with capers, oysters, does not like fish, nor does she particularly like green vegetables, things that are "too sweet", or with textures she doesn't like. Anything prepared in a manner she isn't expecting is suspect. She frequently turns her nose up at anything that doesn't please her, whether she is a guest or at home. When she goes home to visit, she digresses to the age of 7, and her mother, like a short order cook, always prepares Aude complete seperate dishes according to her long list of tastes and preferences. She has been known to pout when served something that the hostess was unaware was on her list of not-eats (choucroute). It is the way she was raised.

I have entertained the idea that she could be a supertaster as well and had some bad experiences in childhood, or that this is backlash to the kind of harsh discipline that Jon speaks of. The rest of the family is a group of adventurous gourmands with high standards. The father has a history of being rather dictatorial and has put a lot of pressure on the children, although he seems to be mellowing over the years. There could be a complex history to this. For that reason I have memorized her list and cook accordingly, and I happily consume the 'yellow meals' we are served at her house. It's about being in a family, I guess.

I wouldn't disagree that French parents tend be stricter than Americans (very broadly speaking). The education system is very different also and the French system focuses on teaching children to be "Citizens of France, citizens of the world." There is also a greater emphasis on language (reading, writing, memorizing poetry and recitation, field trips to performances of plays.. which reminds in another thread there was some talk about taking kids to see live theatre or concerts).

Farid's wisdom rings true here. My husband, when he was my boyfriend, in the midst of a discussion of our respective schooling, mentioned "when (he) started work... ", and I thought he was saying that he'd taken a job in addition to his studies. I asked how old he was, and he said "Oh, at about 5 we started the real work, you know, memorizing". At that point, I was just learning to share my milk and cookies, play nice with others, and lie still at nap time!

[chefzadi]

We are going to Paris tomorrow. Kids in a restaurant?..fine. Dogs? Yuck

It's not like people take out their dogs as dates to restaurants all the time. I've never been seated next to a dog in a chair. It's pretty discreet. Or maybe I'm just used to it.

[Tess]

We are going to Paris tomorrow. Kids in a restaurant?..fine. Dogs? Yuck

It's not like people take out their dogs as dates to restaurants all the time. I've never been seated next to a dog in a chair. It's pretty discreet. Or maybe I'm just used to it.

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In a restaurant in Rome, I saw a great big bunny rabbit sitting on a chair next to a kid. It was their last night before closing for Ferraugusto and things were a little lax. I don't know if the bunny was a pet they'd brought in or maybe something nobody had eaten yet.

[John Whiting]

True, but not so simple. The cultural differences in child rearing, education and attitudes toward children can take up volumes.

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Precisely! Culture is indivisible, and the discipline in French primary schools would outrage most American child psychologists. I know which theory I prefer to live with the results of.

[John Whiting]

...the dominant opinion is that French kids are much better behaved at meals.  I would add at school as well. 

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A determining factor, I'm told, is that French schools often have classroom "policemen" responsible for discipline, so that the teacher need only teach.

[John Whiting]

... the dogs in restaurants are also well-behaved.

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Yes indeed.

[chefzadi]

... the dogs in restaurants are also well-behaved.

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Yes indeed.

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I just wanted to say that I enjoy your writings on food. You and Mr Talbott manage to write about high end dining in an engaging way.

Nice photo of the dog, btw.

[emmapeel]

It amazes me how well behaved dogs are in restaurants in France and Belgium, I have not experieced them eating out in other places. I find it so endearing when a dog is sitting at the table on a banquette (in the honored position) and decides to take a nap instead of begging.

[John Whiting]

... the dogs in restaurants are also well-behaved.

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Yes indeed.

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I just wanted to say that I enjoy your writings on food. You and Mr Talbott manage to write about high end dining in an engaging way.

Nice photo of the dog, btw.

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That's actually me in the photo. Another dog writes the reviews.

[Behemoth]

IThe education system is very different also and the French system focuses on teaching children to be "Citizens of France, citizens of the world." There is also a greater emphasis on language (reading, writing, memorizing poetry and recitation, field trips to performances of plays.. which reminds in another thread there was some talk about taking kids to see live theatre or concerts).

I somehow managed to survive the french system (in colonial form) but quite frankly it's not something I would ever choose to put my children though. I know everyone seems to be holding Europe up as the model here, but at the elite level, the US educational system is really very good. Our problem has more to do with the disparity between the top and the bottom.

[chefzadi]

IThe education system is very different also and the French system focuses on teaching children to be "Citizens of France, citizens of the world." There is also a greater emphasis on language (reading, writing, memorizing poetry and recitation, field trips to performances of plays.. which reminds in another thread there was some talk about taking kids to see live theatre or concerts).

I somehow managed to survive the french system (in colonial form) but quite frankly it's not something I would ever choose to put my children though. I know everyone seems to be holding Europe up as the model here, but at the elite level, the US educational system is really very good. Our problem has more to do with the disparity between the top and the bottom.

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Nadia-

I know what you are saying. I hope you know that.

My wife had a very privileged or elite education in America. I had a cutesy country French education. Our daughter attends a high end French private school (is there such a thing as a low end private school ). We thought long and hard about how to educate our children.

[chefzadi]

... the dogs in restaurants are also well-behaved.

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Yes indeed.

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I just wanted to say that I enjoy your writings on food. You and Mr Talbott manage to write about high end dining in an engaging way.

Nice photo of the dog, btw.

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That's actually me in the photo. Another dog writes the reviews.

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Brings back memories of working in London hanging out with my English mates. The sense of humour.

[Behemoth]

Aw, look! John Whiting thinks he's people!

Farid, I'm sure you know where I'm coming from, probably more than most. It's just a topic A and I find ourselves discussing a lot right now, for reasons obvious to anyone who's read a few of my recent posts.

Speaking of the French system and its effect on kids' public behavior, Lebanese kids tend to be as boistrous as any, but will usually quiet down if you say the following magic words: "shh, don't you see people are staring at you?" Somehow I can't see that working on American kids. The whole culture of public shaming doesn't exist here. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing...

[Jaymes]

I must have gotten the only four French children that hadn't learnt all these wonderful manners and willingness to eat anything.

I hosted four French boys, about 12-14, for a week in my home. They were with a French boy's choir touring the States. They were very picky, arrogant little shits. They turned their Gallic noses up at everything except steak and pomme frits. Which they expected me to provide for them at every meal. And which I didn't. So I watched them pick off the green bits and the white bits and the black bits from the pizzas. And dump the contents of the tacos out onto their plates and push the lettuce and tomatoes and salsa and cheese off to one side and laugh openly at the refried beans and announce that they weren't about to even try to eat anything but the taco meat and that I'd better hustle up and get them more of it.

And just in general let me know that in so far as the food went, they were decidedly unimpressed.

Edited May 22, 2005 by Jaymes (log)

[Pan]

[...]Speaking of the French system and its effect on kids' public behavior, Lebanese kids tend to be as boistrous as any, but will usually quiet down if you say the following magic words: "shh, don't you see people are staring at you?" Somehow I can't see that working on American kids. The whole culture of public shaming doesn't exist here. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing...

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Well, my mother used to try to get me to stop whatever she didn't want me to do in public by scolding me as follows: "Don't you see people looking at you? Everyone's looking at you!" And she's from Brooklyn and without any French ancestry, for whatever it's worth. I'm not sure how often she said that to me in a restaurant, though; I happen to remember that more as something that happened on the street, in stores (where I got bored while she was shopping) and such. No, I wasn't an out-of-control kid and it didn't happen all the time.

[emmapeel]

Well, my mother used to try to get me to stop whatever she didn't want me to do in public by scolding me as follows: "Don't you see people looking at you? Everyone's looking at you!" And she's from Brooklyn...

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It must have once been a New York thing, Michael, because I got the same treatment, as I mentioned upthread. I was told if people were looking at me, I was out-of-control, and I should think about what people must be thinking of us.

I hosted four French boys, about 12-14, for a week in my home.

Jaymes, I understand from my brother and sister-in-law that hosting French people (not only children) can be difficult, as they can be quite demanding. However, I remember when this same family hosted us in both Chartres and Paris once, they were inordinately gracious, serving 5 course dinners every night. Even after I insisted that we stay in a hotel (only because I felt we were imposing) and they begrudgingly agreed, they insisted we return to their home every night for these splendid meals. Their children ages 15, 13 and 1 were so great, and the older ones joined in our conversations with such intent interest that it made our time together much more pleasurable. But when my brother and sister-in-law reciprocated, they said it was a nightmare, because as it seems, perhaps culturally, Americans wait to be offered something (food, sightseeing, etc.), whereas these French people apparently demanded what was to be served, and where they wanted to go and what they wanted to do. (Including a road trip to Disney World from Brooklyn! After that, they wanted my relatives to take them to their country house upstate New York.) My relatives complied with all their wishes. My sister-in-law is a fantastic cook. They must have enjoyed themselves because they returned the next year for more of the same. (My brother whined on the phone for weeks before the second arrival.) As I write this, I am thinking that the nature of travel is to experience another culture and no time is to be wasted. This may have been at the root of the demands.

[touaregsand]

I must have gotten the only four French children that hadn't learnt all these wonderful manners and willingness to eat anything.

Jaymes-

I've seen this with grown up French people in America. The other women at my daughter's school who are not French but married to a Frenchman have discussed starting support groups. One for ourselves to bitch about the bitching we hear and one for our husbands so that they can bitch to eachother rather than to us.

A short list of the most common complaints

1. Half and half.

2. Margarine (invented by in France btw).

3. Cinnamon in pastries.

4. Ketchup.

5. bbq sauce.

6. Large cups of coffee with the plastic lid.

7. Le Hot Dog.

8. American mustard.

9. Their perceptions that Americans overuse condiments in general.

10. Sodas with meals. Drinking a sweet beverage with savory dishes is one of the biggest gripes I hear. I say no one is forcing you.

They were very picky, arrogant little shits. They turned their Gallic noses up at everything except steak and pomme frits.

I married one like this. It took about 4 years to break the little *&$(#^$ Second date he tells me he only likes French food and Algerian food the way his mom makes it (which is really mild and delicate. I was hoping for some spices.)

Speaking of the French system and its effect on kids' public behavior, Lebanese kids tend to be as boistrous as any, but will usually quiet down if you say the following magic words: "shh, don't you see people are staring at you?" Somehow I can't see that working on American kids. The whole culture of public shaming doesn't exist here. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing...

They do that in France too. On numerous occassions in stores I heard (usually a grandma) tell a child the monsieur is looking at you. It seems culturally accepted. Because the monsieur would respond by saying something like, "yes I am, you better listen to grandma."

In America it's probably changed alot from when I was growing up. But I've seen parents who still do that.

Jaymes, I understand from my brother and sister-in-law that hosting French people (not only children) can be difficult, as they can be quite demanding. However, I remember when this same family hosted us in both Chartres and Paris once, they were inordinately gracious, serving 5 course dinners every night.

When I go to France to visit my in laws I do not lift a finger. They do everything for me, including our laundry. My SIL brings me morning coffee. Lucky for me they have not visited here. Because I would have to do the same.

[Jaymes]

Sadly, I did not have the chance to reciprocate and descend upon them and their families. I have absolutely no doubt their parents would have been most gracious hosts. And likely would have been quite horrified to learn of their children's behavior when I was the one doing the hosting. I know I would have.

And you speak of sightseeing. Boy did I haul them around. We were living in Tucson at the time, and I took them all over southern Arizona, paying for everything, including the city's then most famous and atmospheric steakhouse.

At one point, we were driving along in the car and I was pointing out the stately and, I thought, impressive saguaro cacti that loom over the roads. Suddenly they began chattering excitedly and pointing. "Aha," I thought to myself. "At last they do seem to be learning a little something about the Great American Southwest and the Sonoran Desert."

But when I looked in the direction where they were pointing, it was no cactus or other point of cultural interest that finally had caught their eye It was one of those pickup trucks that had been jacked up on 6' high monster tires (and that if it rear-ended you, would decapitate your entire party). I was immediately deflated again. Although I guess you could say that it was a point of cultural interest. It certainly did help to illustrate how the locals (at least the young males) live.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Jaymes (log)

[emmapeel]

...But when I looked in the direction where they were pointing, it was no cactus or other point of cultural interest that finally had caught their eye  It was one of those pickup trucks that had been jacked up on 6' high monster tires (and that if it rear-ended you, would decapitate your entire party). I was immediately deflated again. 

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That's a riot.

I should have added that the trip they wanted to take the the country was understandable, since they took us to their most wonderful farm house in Chartres for a few days, and it was amazing. And without our requests, they designed these fascinating sightseeing trips all around Paris every day. (Honestly, I wanted to see Paris on my own, but they insisted, but the upside was that they created a wanderlust in me for traveling alone that I worship.) And the food that they cooked was outstanding, and gave me insight into a Parisian's cuisines and culinary habits (and no one was fat! )

[Jonathan Day]

I think it's fair to say that the French and the Italians both have a stronger sense of "correct" food than is true in the US.

E.g. in Italy it isn't "correct" to drink cappucino after mid-morning; French diners are generally more upset about serving red wine with chicken (no matter how light or suitable the red); cheese comes before the sweet, not after, as in Britain; and so on. There are strong notions of "gastronomic correctness" that are not to be violated. And of course children usually have stronger views than adults about what's acceptable and what's not.

We get some of this from British children -- e.g. a neighbour's 5 year old child, visiting when my wife served the children quesadillas (you can now buy soft tortillas in London) asked , "Don't you have any proper food?" -- with proper said in a high, cut-glass voice expressing deep annoyance at the intrusion of a "foreign" dish.

[chefzadi]

I think it's fair to say that the French and the Italians both have a stronger sense of "correct" food than is true in the US.

I think it's very accurate to say this.

It's deeply ingrained. I have French friends who have been living in the States longer than I have and they simply cannot adjust to certain differences and they will not. I'm probably more flexible about certain things because my wife is not a Francophile and has no desire to be more French than the French. But still there are some things that still annoy me especially when Americans serve coffee.

[bleudauvergne]

Kids can be funny that way.

Touregsand forgot to mention something very important. Oreos. French (at least the adults) simply don't get them. Also today we had a guest for lunch and I chuckled as they grimacingly contemplated the idea of Fluff. We were talking about a shop in the neighborhood that has just opened, the first in Lyon, which carries a bunch of American childhood nostalgic products like Fluff, Oreos, various candies, cinnamon flavored things, etc.

I laughed inside as my husband described also the peanut butter and jelly thing to our guest, and they both broke out into the French equivalent of "Eeeew." (that is "Aaugh", kind of like Ah, but with short gutteral stop at the end, and generally repeated several times between two people until one has the last say.)

[jennahan]

I think its fairly simple.  In France the parents are in charge, in the US its the kids.

No one in France, for example, asks the kids where to go on vacation.  They don't feed them dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets, nor do they allow them unlimited time in front of the TV.

There are certainly exceptions to this, however my oberservations of my family here and there supports my theory.

Here's a mystery, at least as puzzling to me as the observation that French women don't get fat and that French people, despite guzzling wine, smoking cigarettes, and eating fatty foods don't seem to get heart attacks.

Why is is that French children -- some as young as 3 years old -- can often sit through a long, multi-course meal, sometimes lasting 4 hours, without melting down, screaming, complaining?  I've seen children younger than ours maintain perfect decorum through long menus at one-, two- and three- star restaurants, where ours (who tend to be better behaved at fancy meals than many of their age group peers) can only last an hour or so before needing to leave the table, go play, or generally raise a fuss?

How do the French accomplish this?  Is it doses of wine in the feeding bottles?

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I really am puzzled by all of the glowing reports about the behaviour of French children, and the belief that the parents are in charge in France, but not in the US. I'm married to a Frenchman living in the UK, thus go often to France to visit my in-laws and have witnessed these "angels" in a casual environment.

On the topic of the behaviour of French children, perhaps it is true that only the well-behaved children are taken out for nice meals, but I think that it is just that, in general, babies are taught from birth that mealtimes are not just about eating, but also a time for the family to be together. Outside of this time, my experience has been that French children are just as naughty as other children. Actually, worse. As France had a declining population for a while (just recently, with the decrease in the work week, the birth rate has seem to increase!), children were a relative rarity and extremely indulged. The comment about the 4-5 year old kids drinking from bottles does not surprise me. Additionally, it is commonplace to see kids this age with pacifiers stuck in their mouths (perhaps to keep them quiet to appease the poor parents?). I think that the French continue to baby their children quite a bit longer than in the US and that the US has gotten a bit carried away with empowering kids who really aren't capable of such lack of structure.

In terms of the French believing that Maman knows best, my experience doesn't support this. I have a baby boy, and the amount of unsolicited advice/criticism I received in the streets of Paris was no different than anywhere else. Worse, my family-in-law were quite sceptical of the way I was raising my son. As I live in the UK where a more structured approach to motherhood is more common, I breastfeed for 7 months (most mothers don't breastfeed in France...bad for the boobs) and put my son on a schedule from birth...both things which were marvelled at.

I think that the crux of the observed behavior of kids is that the French as a society have a different priority list than in the US, and wealth and career are second to enjoying life, which includes spending lots of time with family and friends. Perhaps the key is just that the French spend more time with their kids?