How long did it take you?...

[KevinS]

This topic is actually relevant to cooking. I was reading another topic on here and just wondered...when you guys moved to a country (or heck, even learning spanish in american kitchens) where another language was required in the kitchen, how long did it take you to become confident in the language?

Just curious

Edit: I was really just interested in how long it took you guys to learn a foreign language in general, and what helped you do it. I was a German major in college (just got my BS, woo), and am still nowhere near fluent, even after living with a German family for a month in Munich last Summer (when my Germany was already good). In fact, I would say my German skill actually went down then because their dialect was so harsh.

So I guess that is what this topic is about, stories or what have you on your journey to learn a foreign language, and tips you may have. Also, how do you guys deal with different dialects? Because last Summer I could hardly understand anyone while in Munich, but in Berlin I could understand and be understood very very easily.

Hope this helps!

Edited June 11, 2008 by KevinS (log)

[Jon Savage]

This topic is actually relevant to cooking. I was reading another topic on here and just wondered...when you guys moved to a country (or heck, even learning spanish in american kitchens) where another language was required in the kitchen, how long did it take you to become confident in the language?

Just curious 

←

It took me about 9 months to become proficient (from zero to passing university entrance exams) in German but that was pretty much a full time endeavor.

[slkinsey]

There is a big difference between the kind of language fluency that enables one to work in a largely Spanish-speaking kitchen, or order in a restaurant in Rome, and actual fluency in a language. The former can be achieved fairly easily if you have any facility for languages and put your mind to it. Of course, there is no substitution for immersion (i.e., actually being in the Spanish-speaking kitchen or actually being in Rome ordering a plate of pasta) when it comes to speed -- you'll learn more in a week than you would in t months or more of classes.

Most people I know who have moved to countries where a language other than their native language is spoken felt that they had a reasonable level of fluency within a year.

[nakji]

Most people I know who have moved to countries where a language other than their native language is spoken felt that they had a reasonable level of fluency within a year.

I'd like to point out in addition to this that for most people, you have to make some sort of formal attempt to study the language - a lot of people are under the impression they can just ship themselves off to a foreign country and "just pick it up as they go along." If this were true, I'd be fluent in a lot more languages than I currently am. Everyday interaction will allow you to pick up some frequently used vocabulary and functional language, but to progress beyond this to eventually holding a conversation will take some effort.

Consideration should also be given to the language being learnt. For example, going from English to another European language is not as hard as going to an Asian language, because of a common writing system and the large number of cognates. So in the case of the poster who is worried about learning French and Japanese, I'd recommend starting with the French first!

Of course, I believe you acquire the language you're really motivated to learn - the stuff you need to survive- quickly. For example, the only Vietnamese I ever learnt was "Hello, goodbye, thank-you, eggplants, older sister, auntie, uncle, grandmother, that's expensive! and twenty copies, double sided." because those were the extent of the interactions I had to perform in Vietnamese, as I was working in an all-English environment for the most part. If you were working in a busy restaurant kitchen, you'd quickly learn all the important vocabulary, because people would be shouting and pointing. (Although whether you'd be able to say it properly or write it down yourself would be another question) But being able to say something like, "Well, I haven't finished chopping the carrots yet because the gas line has burst and the entire kitchen is on fire" would require some formal study, in my opinion.

But it's incredibly rewarding when you do. I spent four months studying Japanese before I finally moved here, and it jump-started my introduction into the culture, and gave me a lot of confidence in daily interactions. It also helps to smooth over some of the inevitable bumps of culture shock, if you can ask questions and express yourself. For anyone considering going to a foreign country for a stage, I strongly recommend studying before you go, it'll earn you some respect and make your transition a lot less stressful.

I once unintentionally insulted a friend of mine whose family owns a restaurant in US when I expressed surprise that they couldn't speak Spanish - I think I said something like, "It's hardly even a foreign language!" She felt that they shouldn't have to learn a foreign language in their own country, but really, if it makes your life easier, why wouldn't you? But I guess that's a debate for another thread.

[alanamoana]

Definitely agree with Nakji...

When I first started working at a restaurant in Southern California, I started to learn kitchen Spanish. I've always had it in my head that living in the United States, people should speak English. Well, the cooks insisted on speaking Spanish and said that I should learn it to. Much to their dismay when I could understand what they were saying about me or other gringos...but couldn't understand what we were saying!

The process is ongoing and unfortunately, I'm illiterate...can't read or spell (I can fake it if I have to) but it was a relatively quick process to get going since I had already studied French in high school and I love languages.

[Rehovot]

Thanks to many trips to cafes and restaurants without menus in English, plus a religious devotion to a Czech cooking show ("Kluci v akci"/"Boys in Action") in the first year I lived here, plus an unhealthy attachment to Czech culinary blogs, I can speak about food in Czech much better than I can, for example, discuss politics.

As Slkinsey and nakji noted, being kitchen fluent and being literate are two different things. For kitchen fluency (although I don't work in a kitchen), you need a good memory for new vocabulary, basic adjectives, a basic grammar understanding, and the numbers. (And a few profanities.)

Years and years of Spanish and French were not fantastically helpful, for me, in learning a Slavic language *except* that I did know how I best learned a language and could figure out how to advance to the next level, once I realized that I'd hit a plateau. Some things that helped me were carrying around a notebook for words/phrases; forcing myself to speak bad Czech, that first year, in restaurants, cafes, and shops; talking to shopkeepers; and making sure I got in some reading and writing (in addition to listening and speaking), each day. This last is particularly important if you're foregoing formal training/classes, as I have (though not by choice).

As far as dialects go, I think understanding those just comes with time and exposure to different parts of the country/region...

Edited June 11, 2008 by Rehovot (log)

[nakji]

And just to clarify, by "formal attempt to study," I don't necessarily mean taking classes, but doing things like sitting home at night with an introductory level book, carrying around a dictionary and a vocab notebook, holding "language exchange" sessions...etc.

Like Rehovot, I have a quite a large food-related vocabulary for a beginner in Japanese, but any attempt to discuss sports or other things would end in tears. Sadly, the only real chance I have to speak Japanese every day is with the lovely staff at Starbucks. Just today I had an exchange about the provenance of my ring which had me giddy with achievement for an hour afterwards. I also buy "Orange Page", a cooking magazine, to help with reading, and I recently bought a Japanese language cookbook as well.

I think it's really hard to separate language from culture, and you're just able to absorb and understand so much more about a place if you are a participant, and not just a witness.

[Timh]

What I did in Japan, France, and then the kitchens I led stateside that had hispanic or Brazilian staff was to make a list of kitchen phrases, commands, basically everything one would say in the course of prep, service, after service, and had the equivalent translated for me. I laminated it and carried it with me everywhere. After a couple of months, I was able to leave it on a shelf.

[Alex]

There are so many variables it's almost impossible to give a general time frame. When I lived in Japan, I never worked at a restaurant but did eat out a lot. I learned most of my useful Japanese while hanging out in a local bar or from a Japanese woman I briefly was involved with. (And yes, you could consider both of those as pieces of advice.) By the time I moved back to the US, I still didn't know a lot of basic vocabulary but could order food and ask food-related questions pretty well. I also knew a modest amount of curse words and phrases. As in Germany there also are dialect issues in Japanese between the north and the south, but others are more knowledgeable than I about this.

[TarteTatin]

Okay. We've been to France maybe 20-25 times at least.

For a week or two weeks at a time.

I've been studying for years at Alliance Francaise.

I understand quite a bit in France, if people speak slowly.

So, my comprehension is good.

I tell my fellow classmates and teacher in Philadelphia about menu French and French slang from our French friends.

However, my grammar and accent are HORRIBLE.

I just don't understand subjunctive, and all those other terms. Maybe I never learned them in school?

I never get any better.

It's embarrassing.

I'm still in the early levels of French class, and I just don't get any better.

David Sedaris was better than I - many years ago!

[MichaelCE]

Okay. We've been to France maybe 20-25 times at least.

For a week or two weeks at a time.

I've been studying for years at Alliance Francaise.

I understand quite a bit in France, if people speak slowly.

So, my comprehension is good.

I tell my fellow classmates and teacher in Philadelphia about menu French and French slang from our French friends.

However, my grammar and accent are HORRIBLE.

I just don't understand subjunctive, and all those other terms. Maybe I never learned them in school?

I never get any better.

It's embarrassing.

I'm still in the early levels of French class, and I just don't get any better.

David Sedaris was better than I - many years ago!

←

We live in France half the time and have become quite fluent, although still evidently foreigners. I learned a lot by listening to the news on television which is presented in clear French. I also recommend joining a club, in our case a tennis club, but it could be anything. The Institut de Français in Villefranche-sur-Mer is great for intense instruction.

The subjunctive is not optional; ordinary people use it. But I disagree completely about a foreigner trying to use slang. It is like a 12 year old trying to look cool by smoking a cigarette.

[prasantrin]

The subjunctive is not optional; ordinary people use it. But I disagree completely about a foreigner trying to use slang. It is like a 12 year old trying to look cool by smoking a cigarette.

←

The ability to use slang in another language is indicative of the level of cultural assimilation one has undergone. The more assimilated a person is into the new culture, the more naturally he/she will be able to use all aspects of that language, including slang.

If we're talking about language for restaurant purposes, the best way to learn it is to hang out at a restaurant. You don't need to be completely fluent for that, and chances are you won't learn a lot of the vocab you'll need from classes or even "regular" people (i.e. those who don't work or have never worked in restaurants).

Having even a little background in the language before entering an immersion situation would help, of course, but I think it would be most important to start training your ears than your tongue (being able to distinguish between the different sounds of the language, and having greater receptive abilities than productive abilities). In a kitchen situation, if you're pretty low on the totem pole you'll probably be listening to others give you orders rather than the other way around.

Learning from a boyfriend/girlfriend (also called "sleeping dictionaries", at least in Japan) can help by giving you greater access to the language. However, it can also be detrimental when learning languages with distinct gender differences. Some of the Japanese I learned from an ex still gets me into trouble (men can use much more "vulgar" language than women can, but I didn't realize I was learning men's language at the time), and a lot of men who date Japanese women tend to sound very feminine because they use women's language and intonation.

Edited June 12, 2008 by prasantrin (log)

[TarteTatin]

"But I disagree completely about a foreigner trying to use slang. It is like a 12 year old trying to look cool by smoking a cigarette."

For gosh sakes, I'm only talking about things like, "Chouette" for cool.

My friends love it.

[Alex]

Learning from a boyfriend/girlfriend (also called "sleeping dictionaries", at least in Japan) can help by giving you greater access to the language.  However, it can also be detrimental when learning languages with distinct gender differences.  Some of the Japanese I learned from an ex still gets me into trouble (men can use much more "vulgar" language than women can, but I didn't realize I was learning men's language at the time), and a lot of men who date Japanese women tend to sound very feminine because they use women's language and intonation.

Yeah, she clued me in on that. (I love that "sleeping dictionaries" term -- I never heard that before.)

In my first few months in Japan I taught at a juku in a newer and relatively affluent part of Hamamatsu. There was an excellent French restaurant down the street that was way out of my price range for dinner but had an affordable and excellent prix fixe lunch. After eating there a few times, the owner or manager started talking with me, but for the life of me I couldn't understand what he was asking, as his English was as pitiful as my Japanese. We finally figured out that we both knew some French, or so we thought. It turned out that he planned to pursue the English-speaking market, primarily Australian businessmen, so he wanted to know how to describe various ingredients or dishes in English.

[helenjp]

9-12 months sounds good for limited basic fluency in learning to speak and listen to a language in a high-exposure environment.

When I say "limited", I mean that you will pick up the language you need right now, but won't be able to follow a police procedural on TV and may struggle at the bank or with a newspaper.

1-2 years, you should be able to get by in daily life.

3 years and counting, learn more about different levels of politeness and rarely-encountered situations.

Reading and writing - that depends on lots of other things. But if you find a subject that you are interested in, reading in another language exposes you to many more ideas and more knowledge of food in your new country than you would get from your workmates, who after all are a small body of people in a single environment, subject to current trends and economics.

Do yourself a favor and pay out money to study before you leave your home country. Even if you think you're treading water, you will learn so much faster in your new country.

* A linguist (forget who) once said that a prime reason why children learn a new language so fast is that their playmates require them to learn so that they can participate in games properly. If you are not yet able to cope with daily work in your new language, take a class which requires some interaction - people will quickly tell you how to do things, both inside and outside of class, because it's a nuisance to them if you don't know. *

[Peter B Wolf]

As a German born, raised and educated in that country, I left at age 19 to go and work in Medellin Colombia . Never, before going to South America, did I give it thought of ever having to speak Spanish.

It turned out to be total immersion. I did carry with me a Spanish phrase book and a dictionary. Remind you, at that time I did not speak English either.

Naturally, food related terms and vocabulary where faster learned then conversational Spanish. Finding out, a bit of 'Kitchen French' helped tremendously.

No German contact, or rather very little, "made" me needing to learn and also wanting to learn.

One thing which helped me, was a sort of knack to having an ear for other languages, but I did not know this ahead of time.

Living in Medellin for only a little over one year during the "50s" allows me today (still) to read and occasionally (I am retired) speak Spanish.

Of note for me was the pronunciation of Vowels, as in the German and Spanish languages they are annunciated identically. No confusion as in English.

Someone (a German) once asked me why the letter 'o' in 'Women' sounds like an 'i' in 'giving'. Figure this one (as a non-speaker of the language)!

Now, to my Enlish, which I did not speak coming to the Sates in '57, I discovered that this language had more German words in similarity, especially in 'sound'. My exposure (submersion) into daily work as a cook, (right, I was not a 'chef' yet), took me quickly into an automated learning process, I even enjoyed.

Trying daily to read newspapers, and after work, watching the 11:30PM 'Jack Paar Show' made me semi proficiant within a year.

My first place of work was in Philadelphia, and some second generation Germans were working with me. All had compassion, and wanted me to join the local German social clubs like "The Cannstaetter" and "Singerbund", I declined, and said 'Why do I want to speak German, when I just came from that Country?'

I believe I learned quickly, even without any formal studies, like evening classes or other. Staying away from all 'Teutons' also exposed me to more American culture, habits and idiosyncracies.

Now, speaking three languages, enables me also to more easely read and understand French and Italian.

One language I do not think I will ever learn is 'Coputereeze', but it makes good reading.

Thanks to everyone who helped along

[Fengyi]

Gosh! I feel really stupid compared to everyone else.

I've had three years modern Chinese (including a year at university here) and *10+* years of Classical Chinese and have lived in China for over a year now and I still feel completely pathetic!

My recent achievement was learning to operate a Chinese tax receipt machine (so complex it comes with TWO handbooks) but I still feel everyday that my language level is abysmally low, I still regard myself as being at a VERY low level.

BUT I will say that job-related vocabulary will be picked up fairly quickly. I can explain wine stuff like malo-lactic fermentation and oak barrel maturation (I do wine education here)...but still struggle with other things (like whatever my accountant is saying to me!).