Children and High-End London Restaurants

[Tonyfinch]

But is a Lego tossed really any different than knocked over wine from another table which splashed on my dish? (Not a hypothetical.)

Yes. It is different in one major respect. When an adult behaves like an idiot one can express annoyance and indignation with a clear conscience if one wishes.One can also choose to be forgiving and magnanimous if in a benign mood. In other words you choose your response.

When a child chucks the lego into your Petus '47 you may be seething but really have no choice but to smile through gritted teeth while doting parents shrug aplogetically and gaze lovingly at the sprog. Far more irritating and frustrating.

[Paul Bell]

There appears to be a lot of genralisations being made in this discussion, whether children should be taken to restaurants, what sort of restuarants they should be taken to, whether they should go to 'fine dining' restaurants and what age they should be. I shall declare an interest here as we have two children (seven and twelve) who we fairly regularly take to restaurants in London (on the whole we prefer eating out on our own but it is not always practical).

In terms of our experience, which has worked quite well, we started eating in proper restaurants about a year to eighteen months ago with the children (I think we started with the Angelsea Arms and The Brackenbury, then Baltic onto Drones, Enoteca Turi, Racine etc). That means we started taking the youngest when he was six which is probably the earliest we could have taken him, he also likes to eat which helps, and wants to be a chef (god help us, bacon cake anybody?). It was very much a case of staring in more child friendly places and getting them and us used to eating out. When they are are in a restaurant they are expected to behave appropriately, no shouting, throwing stuff, whingeing about the food etc while understanding that they are children, so lots of playing on gameboys which doesn't affect anyone else.

All that being said we always try and choose first and foremost restaurants we want to go to, but in which they will also have food they want to eat, with two of them cost is also an issue, we would not for example take them to GR@RHR, I suspect both of them would enjoy the food there (It is one of my favourite restaurants but its menu is full of things you would like to eat) but it is quite a small intimate room and is expensive enough for two of us let alone four! Other places we would not take them to would be The Capital, The Square, Tante Claire etc, largely the 'fine dining' places (although we are taking the oldest to Petrus in a couple of weeks time, because we cannot normally get there on a lunchtime and they have a cheaper set lunch menu, and I don't like the room much anyway so if we disturb some prissy bankers, good )

Where we would, and have taken the children are the restaurants below this level and this is where I have some concerns regarding the use of the term 'fine dining' above. This weekend we took the children to Locatelli and Putney bridge, both at lunchtime. I would not describe Locatelli as fine dining but probably would Putney bridge, both meals were excellent (I will post separately for ease of reference), both restaurants had children in them, Locatelli in particular had a number of families, the youngest children were probably 5 or 6, and it is in many ways an ideal family restaurant, comfortable seats, wide ranging menu at all price levels and they do childrens lasagne (which they don't advertise).

I am sure you are all getting bored now so will stop there, except that the children's favourite restaurant is St John.

Paul

[Matthew Grant]

I'm with Tony on this one, my issue wouldn't be with a well behaved child sitting quietly, but I would be very distracted if I saw them playing with lego.

If you need to create a diversion (lego, colouring books, crayons) for that child while he is in the restaurant then he is obviously not appreciating it in the manner it should be (i.e. for its food) but appreciating it as a playground.

Grrrrrrrr.....them pesky kids!

[circeplum]

The practical answer is that we are going to be visiting London and driving around the UK. Part of our travel experience is visiting restaurants like GR as well as 'childish' things. A random sitter in London is not an option we like.

there is a place rather twee-ly called pippa pop-ins (i think they have a couple of branches now) which acts as a children's 'hotel'. they have fully trained staff, there are always loads of other children; the food is home-made and children regard it as the ulimate 'sleepover' - it's like a big party.

if you're nervous about encountering hostility in some of the upscale restaurants with a small child - and you probably will, sadly; i remember taking my two first class on eurostar and have never felt so unpopular in my life - it's probably worth investigating.

(and if you're prepared to pay gr prices, it's probably worth shelling out the extra! )

link to it and other services:

http://www.newinlondon.com/chi.shtml

[britcook]

In the end it all boils down to the patience of the child and the attitude of the parent(s). If your child of whatever age has been shown to behave well for the length of the meal in these circumstances, and you are prepared to remove said child if misbehaviour starts then go for it, ring/fax/e-mail the restaurant and ask for their policy.

I have to admit that whenever I see a small child in a top restaurant (or in business class on an aircraft) I always do a mental, "Oh no!" because I have seen some dreadful behaviour on the part of child and parent, but in truth these instances have been isolated and when the child behaves well (perfectly would be too much to expect) I am always pleased that another one of the next generation is learning of the finer things in life.

And who says they can't appreciate these things? Many moons ago we took our son, aged4, to the local "silver service" restaurant which he thoroughly enjoyed, so much so that when the owner came round to enquire how things had been my son piped up, "I like this cafe, it's better than McDonalds!". Praise indeed from a four year old, the owner was delighted and pointed out that he liked to see kids because that was his next generation of diners. Of course said son went on to other many gastronomic experiences and in his first year at University took his girlfriend for a romantic meal at the Merchant House and apparently had a great time talking to Shaun Hill, when most of his fellow undergrads would have gone to the local steak house.

On the practical front do take (quiet) amusements and diversions to keep the child occupied, and ensure they always have something to eat - the bread usually suffices so make sure there is always some available. It's the waiting that usually causes impatience.

[macrosan]

This thread is starting to become an extension of the "food and snobbery" thread. It seems to me that many of the "anti-kids" brigade have no other reason for not wanting kids in "their" restaurants than the thought that they aren't entitled to sample what they themselves are sampling. This is pure snobbery.

Everyone accepts the obvious circumstance of a poorly behaved child, who shouldn't be taken to restaurants which are clearly unsuitable. But to suggest that children shouldn't on principle be taken to fine dining establishments is, in my view, foolish.

My elder daughter used to eat out with us almost everywhere from the age of 1. She was entirely quiet for as long as we stayed, being more interested in watching and listening to people than playing with toys. There were some restaurants we avoided either because of the cathedral-like hush, or because the layout wouldn't accommodate the carry-seat or pushchair we usually took her around in. But we ate with her at Claridges, the Savoy Grill, the Ritz (for tea), Maxim's in Paris, and many other such places without the hint of difficulty.

By contrast, when my younger daughter came along, we were restricted to places like MacDonalds or simple Chinese restaurants, always at early times before they got busy, because my younger one was boisterous, noisy and restless.

When I go to any dining establishment, I expect children and adults to behave in a way that respects my presence, and is in keeping with the culture or style of the establishment. Therefore I accept that the atmosphere at a tapas bar is likely to be lively and noisy, but I expect a calm and quiet atmosphere at, say, Petrus. That is one of the reasons I'm paying more to go to a place like Petrus, or (in the case someone mentioned) for a first-class seat on an aeroplane. Anyone who mars my reasonable expectation, whether one year old or fifty, whether child or drunkard or simply noisy person, will incur my displeasure.

I find pleasant children an enhancement to all my dining experiences.

[Vanessa]

Well said Macrosan!

v

[Tonyfinch]

It seems to me that many of the "anti-kids" brigade have no other reason for not wanting kids in "their" restaurants than the thought that they aren't entitled to sample what they themselves are sampling. This is pure snobbery.

I wondered how long it would take someone to characterise those who prefer some dining experiences without children as "anti-kids".

The moment one starts questioning the presence of kids in certain leisure situations there's alwaus someone ready to accuse you of somehow being "against" children.

It's not about what children are or are not "entitled" to. No-one has questioned the "entitlement" of children to be present. No restaurant is refusing to admit them. You can bring 'em if you want.

However there are clearly some of us who prefer certain dining experiences to be adult experiences. -where we can have time out from the world of children and inhabit a totally adult world for a few hours.

If I'm eating at this kind of restaurant I don't want to be concerned with my child for the few hours I have to enjoy what is an experience which only adults can fully appreciate in all its ambition and skill. Since your'e talking about "entitlement", why is this less of an "entitlement"?

[macrosan]

Please Tony, don't work so hard to misinterpret what I said. The reason I put "anti-kids" in quotation marks was exactly to avoid the response you gave. It is a clear and unmistakeable signal that it is shorthand for a clearly-defined group of people in this thread who have argued against the presence of children in certain restaurants. It is an equally unambiguous signal that it is not intended to be taken literally (as you have nevertheless done) or generally outside the confines of this debate.

To respind to the point you make, I understand your desire to find a "kids-free" environment for your fine dining (note the quotation marks, everyone -- this is shorthand for what we all now perfectly well understand it to mean if we have been reading this thread). If this is so important to you, then you do, of course, have the option to select a restaurant which has a no-kids policy. And yes, you may by accident get it in any restaurant where there happen to be no kids when you eat there. But to move on from that and suggest that there is something wrong with parents taking their kids to certain restaurants, even if you don't happen to be there, because your image of what such establishments should represent, is I believe snobbish. I'm surprised, because I don't think you really mean that. It's rather like NinaW's attitude to the way she insists on the right to determine how people should dress at such places.

[Wilfrid]

"I wondered how long it would take someone to characterise those who prefer some dining experiences without women as "anti-women".

The moment one starts questioning the presence of women in certain leisure situations there's alwaus someone ready to accuse you of somehow being "against" women.

...

However there are clearly some of us who prefer certain dining experiences to be male experiences. -where we can have time out from the world of women and inhabit a totally male world for a few hours.

If I'm eating at this kind of restaurant I don't want to be concerned with wives and girlfriends for the few hours I have to enjoy what is an experience which only males can fully appreciate in all its ambition and skill. Since your'e talking about "entitlement", why is this less of an "entitlement"?

"

Well, it just reminded me of that sort of argument, which I am just about old enough to remember men making.

(I think Macrosan has got it just right on this issue.)

[SamanthaF]

However there are clearly some of us who prefer certain dining experiences to be male experiences. -where we can have time out from the world of women and inhabit a totally male world for a few hours.

If I'm eating at this kind of restaurant I don't want to be concerned with wives and girlfriends for the few hours I have to enjoy what is an experience which only males can fully appreciate in all its ambition and skill. Since your'e talking about "entitlement", why is this less of an "entitlement"?

Wilfrid - this sounds like a great night out - I too enjoy 'girly' nights where a group of girls go out WITHOUT THE KIDS and have a fun evening chatting up the cute French Maitre D.

[Wilfrid]

Hehehehe.

[LaNiña]

Please Tony, don't work so hard to misinterpret what I said. The reason I put "anti-kids" in quotation marks was exactly to avoid the response you gave. It is a clear and unmistakeable signal that it is shorthand for a clearly-defined group of people in this thread who have argued against the presence of children in certain restaurants. It is an equally unambiguous signal that it is not intended to be taken literally (as you have nevertheless done) or generally outside the confines of this debate. 

To respind to the point you make, I understand your desire to find a "kids-free" environment for your fine dining (note the quotation marks, everyone -- this is shorthand for what we all now perfectly well understand it to mean if we have been reading this thread). If this is so important to you, then you do, of course, have the option to select a restaurant which has a no-kids policy. And yes, you may by accident get it in any restaurant where there happen to be no kids when you eat there. But to move on from that and suggest that there is something wrong with parents taking their kids to certain restaurants, even if you don't happen to be there, because your image of what such establishments should represent, is I believe snobbish. I'm surprised, because I don't think you really mean that. It's rather like NinaW's attitude to the way she insists on the right to determine how people should dress at such places.

YO YO YO. I never said that I had the "right" to determine anything. I only said what I PREFER and feel is appropriate. There's a HUGE difference there.

[Tonyfinch]

Wilfred, that post does not befit you. The analogy does not hold at any level. It would be too tedious to explain why.

[SamanthaF]

I never said that I had the "right" to determine anything.  I only said what I PREFER and feel is appropriate.  There's a HUGE difference there.

I also think that is the point that some people are trying to make here. We don't think it is approriate to take small children to high end restaurants, and we would PREFER that their parents didn't when we eat in them.

[kutsu]

Morning all

Off to stay in 'sunny' London for a week in august and I'm looking to get some meals booked up. Being from up in't sticks, Id like a couple of Mich-starred ones. However, Im checking the availibility for my daughter dining with us, who is 7 and has eaten in a few starred places before (last one being Baslow Hall).

Shes an angel, absolutely perfect tablemanners, patience etc, so I have no worries about her behaviour (she's very old-headed when we dine out) but I wouldn't want to put a restaurant in an uncomfortable position.

I'm looking at, ideally, one lunch and one early dinner (7 o clock seated type affair) - not fussed about price, food type, etc but must be in central london.

Any suggestions? I'm thinking Locanda Locatelli for the early dinner, if they are ok with that.

Cheers

~K

[naebody]

Most of what this thread says remains true (although consider any mention to Frankies a historical anomaly).

To summarise, go wherever you want. But, if you're nervous,

Push the definition of "central London": Cercle, the Ledbury and Rousillion are all solid one-stars inside Zone 2's westerly child plains.

Go to an Italian: Locatelli, or perhaps Theo thingmybob at the Intercontinental. The River Cafe would be better, but is probably too far.

Go silly: Maze, whose tricksy menu is catnip to anyone with a mental age below 10.

Go to 'seen it all before' venue: The Wolseley, obviously, plus Boxwood and lots of other hotel places would be fine.

As a happy middle-ground, what about Tom Aikens? If I were seven, I'd be knocked out by all the endless waves of lollies, test tubes and soda bottles. Friday may be a bit couple-ish, but you should be okay on a school night.

[rjs1]

Morning all

Off to stay in 'sunny' London for a week in august and I'm looking to get some meals booked up. Being from up in't sticks, Id like a couple of Mich-starred ones. However, Im checking the availibility for my daughter dining with us, who is 7 and has eaten in a few starred places before (last one being Baslow Hall).

Shes an angel, absolutely perfect tablemanners, patience etc, so I have no worries about her behaviour (she's very old-headed when we dine out) but I wouldn't want to put a restaurant in an uncomfortable position.

I'm looking at, ideally, one lunch and one early dinner (7 o clock seated type affair) - not fussed about price, food type, etc but must be in central london.

Any suggestions?

~K

←

For lunch, definately Foliage - took a three year old there for lunch a year or so ago and they couldn't have been nicer or more accomodating (mind you, since we were the only lunchers for the first hour we were there, it was sensible of them to treat us well). It's excellent value for lunch and the view of Hyde Park, including horses, may help to keep your child entertained.

Alternatively and also for lunch, what about Le Gavroche? Great value, and since the service is so note perfect there I'm sure they'd spoil your daughter rotten.

[cachan]

From my own experience (my daughter of similar age) and from observing others, most top restaurants have no trouble with children, although this probably means well-behaved children, i.e. your child isn't going to start screaming.

[Andy Davies]

From my own experience (my daughter of similar age) and from observing others, most top restaurants have no trouble with children, although this probably means well-behaved children, i.e. your child isn't going to start screaming.

←

L'Autre Pied, although not Michelin Starred yet, I feel certain it will be in due course. I can recommend it , I had an excellent lunch with my family and they were great with my 10 month old baby, high chairs! and bottle warming no problem.

[sbb1979]

Push the definition of "central London": Cercle, the Ledbury and Rousillion are all solid one-stars inside Zone 2's westerly child plains.

Rousillon used to do a tasting menu for children that sounded fantastic (Alexis Gauthier seems to actually care about these things) - may be worth asking about - and the staff are so lovely there that I'm sure they'd be delighted to accomodate you.

[cachan]

Some London restaurants indicate that they are child-friendly by having a few high-chairs available. I appreciate your daughter is 7 but it is a 'signal' from the restaurant nevertheless.

Locanda Locatelli and 'apparently' all the Gordon Ramsay restaurants declare their child-friendliness in this way. GR Claridges and Savoy (when open) and maze have high-chairs, as my younger daughter can testify. And one does see children of other people in most places.

So, as your daughter is 7 and well-behaved, I would just go ahead and book wherever you choose without hesitation, just do tell them that one person is a child of 7.

[ravelda]

I would guess you should be ok at most michelin restaurants in London. I know Pied a Terre are very good with children (a friend of mine took his child along and he was invited into the kitchen to see the chefs at work and a special tasting menu was created according to his taste). I know that Claridges, le Gavroche, foliage, Roussillon, Tom Aikens and the Square are also pretty good with kids as well.

Have a great time wherever you go!