Good, Cheap/Inexpensive Knives

[Octaveman]

many people force the patina with ferric acid and water (1:4) sold at radio shack under the name of "etching solution" but I didn't like the results. It made the sides satiny in feel and food stuck to it really bad. Another way is to force with vinager and water (1:1) to a small degree. The knife will patina a lot slower so you can regulate the results a lot easier than with the F.A.

Personally, I like the look of a natural patina and it doesn't take much to form it and get the protective thing going. Forming the patina is a lot like seasoning a cast iron pan or carbon steel wok. It takes a little time to form but once it does, it works like a charm. Use it on onions and lemons to get it moving in the right direction. A pattern will eventually develope that makes the knife look cool.

Here's my Hiromoto HC. Check out the cool looking patina swirls I got going. Don't ask me how I did it because I have no clue. The HC is the knife on the far right of the three. it didn't take long for that to happen. Cut some stuff (onions/lemons) up without rinsing it down for a minute or two, then rinse. Repeat. BTW, the knife on the left of the three is the Hiromoto AS. Stainless sides with a super blue core. Only the core will patina (see dark edge) and it forms very fast. Extremely good knife too that I highly recommend.

Great choices of knives, Ojisan. Koki and JCK.com is the greatest place to get knives. They'll even try to get knives that aren't on their site. The Hiromot HC wasn't normally sold by them until a few months ago when they added it due to huge interest asking them for it once word got out the knife rocks. Great customer service and prices to boot. $7 to ship anywhere in the world is huge too. I can place an order on Monday and have it Thursday...from Japan!

Hope this helps.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Octaveman (log)

[ojisan]

The Hiromoto HC 240 gyuto and the Tojiro DP honesuki arrived today - 4 day deliver from Koki-san, and I am very pleased. My initial impressions:

- The Tojiro's fit & finish is really xlnt, on par w/ Wustrof/Henkels. And the weight feels good and substantial. Fit and finish on the Hiromoto is funkier, esp. around the handle - tang is uneven, with slight gaps between the wood and metal. But the blade looks great.

- I was a bit surprised to find that the blades' sides are not symmetrical - left/back sides are almost flat (although not like the traditional Japanese concave shape), and right/front sides are rounded.

- The right/front side of the DP honesuki has a double bevel (that is, 2 bevels), which makes sense because the blade thickness is 3mm.

- Neither appear to be ready-to-go sharp out of the box - I'll sharpen them on the EdgePro tomorrow and try to determine what the factory angles are (and I'll keep those angles).

- I got the honesuki for boning chickens, but after handling it, I'm thinking it might/could do double duty as a petty/paring knife. I'll post more later after using both....

[johnsmith45678]

I bought a stainless steel looking santoku at an Asian market the other day for three bucks! It's pretty hefty too, with a full tang. It has "Shuang Jin Long" on the blade, if anybody's familiar with that. I'll see how it holds up - might go back for the $10 cleaver! Things are a lot cheaper at the ethnic markets:

bamboo rolling mat - $2 (Whole Foods - $15)

pickled ginger - $1.50 (Whole Foods - $7)

and much more...

Edited May 27, 2006 by johnsmith45678 (log)

[mrsadm]

The Hiromoto HC 240 gyuto and the Tojiro DP honesuki arrived today - 4 day deliver from Koki-san, and I am very pleased. My initial impressions:

- The Tojiro's fit & finish is really xlnt, on par w/ Wustrof/Henkels. And the weight feels good and substantial. Fit and finish on the Hiromoto is funkier, esp. around the handle - tang is uneven, with slight gaps between the wood and metal. But the blade looks great.

- I was a bit surprised to find that the blades' sides are not symmetrical - left/back sides are almost flat (although not like the traditional Japanese concave shape), and right/front sides are rounded.

- The right/front side of the DP honesuki has a double bevel (that is, 2 bevels), which makes sense because the blade thickness is 3mm.

- Neither appear to be ready-to-go sharp out of the box - I'll sharpen them on the EdgePro tomorrow and try to determine what the factory angles are (and I'll keep those angles).

- I got the honesuki for boning chickens, but after handling it, I'm thinking it might/could do double duty as a petty/paring knife. I'll post more later after using both....

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Glad to hear your Tojiro's fit and finish are excellent. Mine has several flaws, although they are minor, but no where as good as a Wusthof. The rivets aren't quite even with the handle surface, for instance.

I use a Deba for boning chickens, it is a very tough knife; got it for about $24 on e-bay.

[lutefisk]

Wow - thanks for this great thread (especially Chad's comments)! I'm going to pick up a Forschner Fibrox 10" chef's and 3.25" paring for the weekend house. What about the honing steel? There's a Fibrox one that's $22.95 here and I was told once that you should get the same brand steel as your knives. Any truth to that, or does anyone have suggestions for a less expensive choice?

Thanks!

[HKDave]

Wow - thanks for this great thread (especially Chad's comments)!  I'm going to pick up a Forschner Fibrox 10" chef's and 3.25" paring for the weekend house.  What about the honing steel?  There's a Fibrox one that's $22.95 here and I was told once that you should get the same brand steel as your knives.  Any truth to that, or does anyone have suggestions for a less expensive choice?

Thanks!

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You don't need to match your steel brand to your knife brand... Forschner doesn't even make that steel, it's made for them by a supplier in England. Despite what that link says, it doesn't have a Fibrox handle, just a generic plastic one. That seems like a decent price. I have the same one, plus one of their diamond steels, and like them both; I also have (and don't like) a cheaper Chicago Cutlery steel.

[HKDave]

The Hiromoto HC 240 gyuto and the Tojiro DP honesuki arrived today - 4 day deliver from Koki-san, and I am very pleased. My initial impressions:

- The Tojiro's fit & finish is really xlnt, on par w/ Wustrof/Henkels. And the weight feels good and substantial. Fit and finish on the Hiromoto is funkier, esp. around the handle - tang is uneven, with slight gaps between the wood and metal. But the blade looks great.

...

←

Glad to hear your Tojiro's fit and finish are excellent. Mine has several flaws, although they are minor, but no where as good as a Wusthof. The rivets aren't quite even with the handle surface, for instance.

...

←

Ditto. Just got 4 Tojiro DPs (2 gyutos, a petty, a santoku) from Koki. Excellent service. Ordered Thursday, shipped Saturday (was going to ship Friday but found they were short one style, and advised me that there would be a one-day delay), arrived Hong Kong Monday morning.

A couple of the knives are near-perfect, but the finish on the others is such that I wonder if they're seconds... several minor flaws, including rivits not flush. Definitely not Wurstof quality. Not bad enough to send them back, but enough to give me pause about buying more of these by mail order.

[Chad]

Sorry for the late replies, folks. I'm still unpacking from a cross-country move.

Dave is absolutely correct. You don't need a steel made by the manufacturer of your knives. I don't like grooved steels at all, as a matter o' fact. I'm partial to the high grit ceramic honing rods sold by EdgePro or HandAmerican.

As for the Tojiro knives -- the three samples I have on hand all have excellent fit and finish, though the edge was rolled slighty on one right out of the box. However, there are many reports of variable finish quality. These knives are great bargains, but with the caveat that they might not be up to the Wusthof level of refinement.

Take care,

Chad

[HKDave]

A few more 'good cheap knife' suggestions... most of us are familiar with Victorinox/Forschner because of the Swiss Army Knife connection and the repeated Cook's Illustrated plugs, but there are several other European professional-quality 'stamped' blade / molded handle brands that are similar, just not as well-known or as widely distributed in North America. Here are a few worth considering. You're more likely to run into these at restaurant or butcher supply houses. I've used and liked knives from the first two, and heard good things about the next three.

Geisser knives are from Germany. They're better known for butcher's knives, but some culinary schools now use them in their student kit. Their chef's knife has a similar handle to Victorinox but a deeper blade. Nice.

http://www.giesser.de/www_e/index2.html

Sanelli (mentioned upthread) from Italy. Their 'Premana' line has strange-looking but comfortable handles, and I really like their santoku.

http://www.sanelli.com/sito/premanainglese.php

Swibo knives are made by Wenger - the 'other' official maker of Swiss Army Knives. They claim to have invented the molded handle knife.

http://www.wenger-knife.ch/scripts/page839110.html

Frost's, from Sweden. http://www.frosts.se/index_2_uk.html

Icel of Portugal's 'Horeca Prime' series: http://www.icel.pt/ingles/cozinha2.cfm?cod=32

[Rebecca263]

Well, if you can ignore:

• ...
  

you have . . . well, knives that aren't any better than the no-name stamped garbage you can buy at any grocery store. 

Friends don't let friends buy Cutco.

Hell, I wouldn't let anyone buy Cutco.

Chad

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Gee, Chad, I have to liken your diatribe about Cutco to Tom Cruise's Scientology related tirade on Psychology.

I may not be an expert on knives, but the one lone Cutco in my collection is actually a pretty good knife, after 15 years of use! I'm too cheap to buy them new(I'd rather spend the dough on a Kyocera Ceramic) but if you can find them on eBay cheap or at garage sales, etc. have at it, I say! They are light years better than "the no-name stamped garbage you can buy at any grocery store".

[Reefpimp]

I made my santoku and my French knife out of Damascus blanks from Dixie gun Works. The barstocks were $100 apiece approximately, so they weren't what you call "cheap." But compared to what I'd pay if I'd had someone else do it for me, I call it a bargain. Plus they look really cool. The santoku has bird's-eye maple handle scales, the French knife has black locust handles, both from trees in my backyard. It's really fulfilling to use these tools.

[Octaveman]

Pics?

[mcohen]

Forschner 40520 8" chef's knife is indeed the best bargain knife out there. The Forschner, however, despite its weird Fibrox faux bolster, is pretty well made. It'll take and hold a decent edge. The examples I have on hand all came with the edge slightly rolled, requiring a quick touchup with a fine grit ceramic steel to set them straight. All in all, not a bad choice for a young cook starting out or as a second set of knives to outfit a beach house or lake cabin.

And, saving the best for last, the 8" Tojiro DP gyuto is the bargain of the century at $49.95.

i'm kind of confused- so which one is the better bargain out there.

on one hand, you say the forschner is the best bargain knife out there but then you later call the tojiro the bargain of the century? i'm looking for a versatile, reliable knife where i don't have to worry about sharpening it all the time. i know, i know... its not that hard, but i want to give it as a present to somebody i know won't do all that.

[maggiethecat]

I've come to know that if a knife doesn't patinate or rust I don't really want it. Other knives simply don't get as sharp, no matter the skill and equipment of the cook sharpening them.

My mother's in Hospice and I'm cooking from her kitchen. The only sharp knife in the drawer is a birds -eye paring knife, which is fine in its way but can't cut a pocket in a flank steak or dice some mirepoix. My mother's knife of choice is an ancient Taylor and Ng low carbon cleaver: a fine cutting instrument but not for me.

So I hit a chichi cooking shop in the market in Ottawa, hoping to score my favorite cheap knife: that cute L'Econome straight paring knife that I use for everything at home short of major butchering. (You know the one: about seven bucks, with a bright painted wooden handle. Seriously cheap.)

The owner of the shop said they carry them, but sell out in two days because the crews at every restaurant in Ottawa snatch them up. But what should to my wondering eyes should appear: same knife, four times the size. It's sharp as a razor, cute as a button (I chose the yellow handle) and French, bien sur. Twenty four bucks CDN. I'm in love. And I can cook again.

(My sisters have been threatened with dismemberment if they put it in the dishwasher.)

[eic6]

Hi all.....new to posting. Been soaking up old posts for last few months. You all have sparked my interest in japanese knives. There are not many brands avail in Australia so i plan to go via JCK. We are just keen home cook and plan to go stainless or stainless clad mainly for convenience. Just wondering which of these i should go for (all in 240mm gyuto). I know a lot is up to personal choice but i don't think i will be able to hold one prior to ordering. I have used shun and globals before and like both.

1) Tojiro Powdered High Speed Tool Steel Series

2) Masamoto VG series

3) Hiromoto AS

4) Hattoris HD

Thanks in advance

[Octaveman]

Hello and welcome. Out of your choices I would say in order of preference....

1. Hiromoto AS

2. Tojiro powdered

3. Masamoto

4. Hattori HD

The Hiromoto has a super blue carbon steel core so it's not 100% stainless. The handle is very comfortable. It is an awesome knife and is my hands down favorite of those above. The Tojiro is a very tough work horse of a knife. I've never used the Masamoto but the line is very good. The Hattori is also very good but is a bit more fragile than the others.

Cheers,

Bob

[eic6]

Thanks bob

Will put in order today, Can't wait to get them

[Octaveman]

You betcha. Let us know what you think when you get them...them? How many you getting? Or, what are you getting?

[eic6]

Planning to get the hiromoto AC gyuto 240mm and hattoria petty (because GF thinks it looks nice!!).

I have this old chinese clever that was my mums that is older than me (29yrs) that i go most things with...but i can always do with new toys.

Also got myself some Norton stones online as per your sugggestion in another thread

[MGLloyd]

A friend of mine who works as a sous in the Midwest was raving about some knives that he picked up at a local restaurant supply store: Montana knives. He describes them as stainless and with a white polypro handle. He wondered if they were a rebadged Dexter Russell Sani-Safe but they were somewhat cheaper than DR. I have not heard of that brand nor seen them in the Seattle area.

[KLwood]

Thanks to this thread, and the linked sites, I feel like Im on a new level of Knife awareness, and hey, I was quite a knife nut already. !

Last week I was in NY and dropped by Korin ( after a lunch at Nobu, so I was fully in the groove, )

and picked up the Tojiro DP Gyuto , 240mm. and after a week of use, Id have to fully agree with the reccomendations gived throughout this thread.

Its alot more nimble than my 10" Shun, and the 'Chunky' handle isnt an issue for me any more than the odd " D Shaped " handle of the Shun since I tend to 'choke up' on the blade quite a bit.

the fit and finish are excellent . I was reading somewhere that the' DP' designation stands for Discoloration Prevention stain resistant in other words, which seems to apply to both the outer layers and the middle cutting steel .. Im just wondering what the steel actually is in the middle layer.. the lady at Korin didnt know , although she told me that it was a 60 on the Rockwell scale.

is it more akin to the VG 10 thats showing up everywhere or something more conventional thats simply been taken up to RC 60? Purely an academic question but like I said Im a bit of a knife enthusiast.

Next on the list is the Horimoto AS. and an Edgepro Apex but that may have be closer to ChristmasTime...

[MarketStEl]

I'm living in the town where they are made[...]

I don't think it's been said, but the other knife you need to have is a meat slicer, a chef's knife will work in a pinch, but a good slicer is nice for lots of tasks such as slicing meat and skinning fish.  That brings the total to six knives by my count.  Cheap Paring, Nice Slicing, Decent Bread, Cheap&Decent Cleaver for bones, Decent Boning, Nice Chef's.  Doubt anybody sells a set of those.

←

The town where Cutco is made that is. I'm not sure if that came across, I was reviewing the thread and I didn't think that it did. Anyhow, back to the conversation at hand.

←

Ah, thanks.

I grew up using Cutco knives. I think Mom and Dad (or more likely Dad) bought them from a traveling salesman (along with a stainless steel cookware set from a manufacturer called "Lo-Heet" that I've never seen since). I didn't know any better.

Knives are one of the few objects in which I believe the phrase "you get what you pay for" is accurate. With knives, it appears to me, you just can't cut corners on price--you want a knife that will do the job right, you had better be ready to shell out for one.

That said, I did have a set of serrated knives from J.A. Henckels International (their cheap line) that worked well, for a while, and worked okay for a while longer after I purchased a sharpener designed to sharpen serrated-edge knives. But after about four years' use, I needed to replace the chef's knife. The 8-inch Wusthof I got for Christmas 2001 still works beautifully -- and as I see from this thread, there are knives out there that are a lot better than that. However, even though relative to that serrated knife set, $90 for one knife isn't cheap, given how much better the Wusthof cuts and how much longer it lasts, it's a bargain.

[chemprof]

I've volunteered to do a cooking class/demo for some students in one of our dorms next week (one of my students is the RA). I'm focusing on food you can do quicklly and easily in a George Foreman, rice cooker, hot pot or microwave (no open coil appliances such as toasters or toaster ovens are allowed in the dorms). They do have a "kitchen" with an stove, etc. but I'm trying to focus on food you could turn out in your room if the caf was closed or you didn't feel like going. (also apparently the oven door will only stay closed if you prop a chair against it! ).

I'm going to bring my knife and show them how to chop an onion, etc. and I thought it would be good to suggest that they might want to acquire a decent knife, but I know they don't have much money, or even the need to invest in an expensive knife. After a trip to Target and Bed Bath and Beyond today...I wonder if any of those $10-20 chefs knives are worth buying, just as a starter knife for a dorm room?

Thanks-

Anne

ps in case you're wondering, here's my current planned menu

George Foreman+heavy textbook= panini press, so:

Cheddar and ham panini

Brie and jam panini

Chocolate and banana panini (poundcake + nutella)

Rice cooker Hoppin' John

Soba with spicy peanut sauce and veggies (rice cooker/hotpot)

Microwave breakfast sandwich

Edited December 2, 2007 by chemprof (log)

[JohnnyH]

This sounds awesome -- wish I could have taken your class when I was in school. Only problem with cooking like that in the dorms, if I remember correctly, is clean-up. Bathroom sinks and all...

[feedmec00kies]

I'm going to bring my knife and show them how to chop an onion, etc.  and I thought it would be good to suggest that they might want to acquire a decent knife, but I know they don't have much money, or even the need to invest in an expensive knife.  After a trip to Target and Bed Bath and Beyond today...I wonder if any of those $10-20 chefs knives are worth buying, just as a starter knife for a dorm room?

←

I've used chef's knives by Farberware (BB&B) and a Heckels santoku (came with a paring knife or something at Target) bought for 20 or under and they're fine for beginners/instable living situations. Certainly better than the "common" knives in my house's kitchen at school (some people really buy some god-awful knife sets, let me tell you). Nothing amazing, but I found that they were decently sharp, and if you're good about honing the knife it'll stay sharp.

I'd like to note that I probably wouldn't have bought knives multiple times except that once it was lost at the end of 2 of the years due to miscommunication (I thought my s/o was going to take it, since he was staying in the area during the summer) and a bad breakup (with the s/o). The 3rd I gave to my sister who hasn't really gotten into cooking too much yet, but was somewhat in need of a decent chef's knife.

Edited December 2, 2007 by feedmec00kies (log)