How Important is an In-House Pasty Chef?

[oakapple]

How many people really care about dessert?

I sure as heck don't.

←

I usually don't order dessert, unless it comes as part of a prix fixe or tasting menu. But given the effort restaurants put into desserts and the job market for pastry chefs, I have to think desserts really do matter to a restaurant's image and bottom line.

[Nathan]

you mean the effort that 99% of restaurants put into unpacking premade desserts from Bindi or Sysco?

the number of restaurants with pastry chefs (or actual made-on-premises desserts) is very very small.

people would be flabbergasted how many three-star type places (let alone virtually all two-stars) outsource their desserts.

edit: I think this is one of the most universal but closely held secrets of the restaurant world.

2nd edit: many restaurants, of course, finish the desserts in-house. whether it be finishing that Sysco cake with berries on top (which one high-end establishment admitted to doing) or torching the pre-made creme brulee (virtually every brassiere and bistro in New York).

Edited April 18, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[oakapple]

I was referring to what the customer sees. What the restaurant does behind the scenes is a whole other story. But we are clearly in an age where, at least at major restaurants, pastry chefs are becoming big names --- sometimes on a par with the executive chef. I'm thinking of people like Will Goldfarb, Sam Mason, Alex Stupak, Nicole Kaplan, Jordan Kahn, Pichet Ong. Some of those folks, obviously, have become (or are about to become) leading acts on their own, instead of being the final act in someone else's show.

[Sneakeater]

FWIW, I think the desserts at Esca tend to be very good.

[Nina C.]

Just to be a voice for the other side - I often go to a restaurant more for the pastry chef's reputation than the chef's.

[Sethro]

the number of restaurants with pastry chefs (or actual made-on-premises desserts) is very very small. 

people would be flabbergasted how many three-star type places (let alone virtually all two-stars) outsource their desserts.

Well that has not been my experience at all. I actually tend to be surprised by the number of small to very small restaurants in NYC that try to squeeze in a pastry chef where there isn't room for one.

If there are 3 star restys in ny that buy their desserts, I'd love to know who they are. I can't think of many two stars either of the top of my head, except for the ones who outsource ice cream and sorbet--and even most of them try to do something in house though (even if its just a fondant or beignets). I suppose there are a lot of touted Japanese restaurants that have no dessert program, but even that is changing.

Edited to add: the desserts at Esca are very competent and the dept is pretty important to the restaurant.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Sethro (log)

[Nathan]

well...there are probably nearly as many pastry chefs working in NY as in the rest of the country put together (especially if you discount Vegas).

with that said, there are a lot of restaurants purporting to do their own stuff...that, well, just aren't.

(part of it is that the premade stuff from Sysco and Bindi can be remarkably sophisticated....and better than what any restaurant without a full-time pastry chef could do on its own)

[tupac17616]

there are a lot of restaurants purporting to do their own stuff...that, well, just aren't.

C'mon Nathan, you've got us on the edges of our seats now. Spill the dirt. Name some names, man.

[Busboy]

(moderator's note)

This is a merger of two recent topics on the importance of pastry chefs. Carry on.

If this discussion becomes specific to NYC restaurants, however, participants should consider opening a new topic in the New York Forum.

Thanks,

Charles

[Vadouvan]

well...there are probably nearly as many pastry chefs working in NY as in the rest of the country put together

That's doesnt even sound right.....

1 city has as many pastry chefs than the rest of the entire continental USA ?

Could you explain the logic of those numbers please....

[Timh]

And give facts to back up your seemingly wild assertations(assumptions). From where do you draw your conclusions?

[Nathan]

well...there are probably nearly as many pastry chefs working in NY as in the rest of the country put together

That's doesnt even sound right.....

1 city has as many pastry chefs than the rest of the entire continental USA ?

Could you explain the logic of those numbers please....

←

I didn't mean that literally!

[Nathan]

And give facts to back up your seemingly wild assertations(assumptions). From where do you draw your conclusions?

←

Primarily various conversations with restaurant professionals.

Come on guys, even Keller uses Sysco fries! It isn't news that restaurants take shortcuts. We all know that the reason why everything tastes the same on every bar menu is because it's all premade by the same people. Likewise for that molten chocolate cake on every two-star menu (no, I'm not talking about Gordon Ramsay here).

[docsconz]

My answer to the original question of this topic would be that if the pastry chef is capable of and doing delicious, interesting and creative desserts (as opposed to run of the mill) then having an in-house pastry chef and team can be very important to a restaurant. If all the pastry chef will do is create standard desserts, then why bother if it can be outsourced more economically?

[Timh]

I would offer that whatever similarities in desserts and flavors might be due to the incestuous nature of the business, in the constant moving of pastry chefs as well their sous to the next great gig. Plus, certain recipes are just standard, regardless of the restaurant(such as creme brule, ice creams, mouses, chocolate anything, etc.)

Using sysco fries is far different from buying premade desserts. We, for example, make both of our breads, our pastas and all of our desserts,including the gelatos and sorbettos, biscotti, tart doughs, but I buy a puff pastry dough because we can't produce it consistently. I would not evern consider making phylo either. House made desserts are a matter of pride for kitchens and chefs and I would say that if a "chef" is buying premade desserts they are also cutting corners across the menue, at that would be glaringly obvious to all.

[Nathan]

dude...whatever the practice may be at your restaurant...

its simply not a secret that restaurants are sourcing desserts from the same places (unless you can afford a full-time pastry chef...which the vast majority of restaurants do not...its simply easier to purchase them).

if waitterrant can be believed, restaurants routinely instruct their wait-staff to refer to their desserts as home-made when they're not.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Nathan]

I've got a feeling that some of these will look familiar:

http://www.bindiusa.com/presentazione/index_usa.html

and here's the one media article I know of on the topic:

http://www.slate.com/id/2160284/

[docsconz]

dude...whatever the practice may be at your restaurant...

its simply not a secret that restaurants are sourcing desserts from the same places (unless you can afford a full-time pastry chef...which the vast majority of restaurants do not...its simply easier to purchase them). 

if waitterrant can be believed, restaurants routinely instruct their wait-staff to refer to their desserts as home-made when they're not.

←

It may or may not be a secret and I would be surprised if at least some restaurants don't outsource their desserts and claim them to be in-house as there certainly are many, many mediocre restaurants who need all the help they can get, but where are the top-notch places that are doing that? It's one thing to outsource from someone like Will Goldfarb, but then I would think the restaurant would wish to promote that. It's quite another to outsource from a Sysco and then want to take credit for it. As I said earlier though if all they would do anyway is mediocre desserts they might as well outsource. I don't have a problem with that. The deceit is another story though. Still, Nathan, you are throwing around a lot of conjecture and claiming it to be common knowledge, when there is really no evidence that it is. If there is evidence, it hasn't been provided here so far as i can see.

[docsconz]

I've got a feeling that some of these will look familiar:

http://www.bindiusa.com/presentazione/index_usa.html

and here's the one media article I know of on the topic:

http://www.slate.com/id/2160284/

←

This is a list linked to in the article from Slate. The list is of chefs who use Sysco products and who have been showcased in Sysco newsletters. While i am sure they are all competent chefs the restaurants are not exactly a compendium of the very top restaurants in the country. Even so, using Sysco pre-made products isn't the issue. The issue would be passing them off as one's own. Certainly some do. They have to live with themselves.

[Nathan]

I've certainly never claimed that four-star restaurants (or restaurants with four-star aspirations) do so. Or restaurants that actually have pastry chefs. But most don't.

Many of the better restaurants don't actually lie, they just don't volunteer.

[docsconz]

I've certainly never claimed that four-star restaurants (or restaurants with four-star aspirations) do so.  Or restaurants that actually have pastry chefs.  But most don't.

Many of the better restaurants don't actually lie, they just don't volunteer.

←

I would still like to know which of the "better" restaurants are doing this. While you may be right that at least some of those restaurants are doing this, all I have really seen is conjecture despite the obvious confidence of your assertion.

[Nathan]

I'm not going to name names in a public forum.

I understand if you don't take my word for it.

[phaelon56]

How many people really care about dessert?

I sure as heck don't.

←

If I know the desserts will be average to mediocre I don't care at all. But if I know they'll be really good I'll gladly skip soup or an appetizer or even share an entree instead of having one of my own - all in the interest of leaving room for dessert. Hmmmm... that would be a cool name for a restaurant

[Vadouvan]

I'm not going to name names in a public forum.

I understand if you don't take my word for it.

i have a solution, PM Doc the names......?

[phaelon56]

We have a "high end" (by local standards - much different than a major metro area) restaurant in town that has at least one entreee on their menu that comes staright from a frozen Sysco package - sauce and all. They also have a "specialty bakehouse" at a separate location that "makes" their desserts. The fact is that some are made and some are pre-made. The scones are fresh or at least from a fresh dough mix. But the cookies and croissants come from the freezer.

It's their business whether they make it form scratch or not but I resent any restaurant that claims to have "home-made" desserts but is peddling something else. I've eaten some Bindi and Sysco desserts - sometimes knowingly and more likely other times not knowing - and they satisfied my sweet tooth at the time.

But I much prefer going to a place with an unambitious dessert menu that rarely changes but has very high standards. Creme brulee.... chocolate mousse.... lemon tart and a few others come to mind. Easy to buy.... tougher to make it from scratch really well but even more demanding to make it really stellar AND consistent. And you can do that without a pastry chef but it does mean accepting some serious restrictions on the range and variety of your dessert offerings.