How Important is an In-House Pasty Chef?

[tb86]

I think your splitting hairs when it comes to Pastry/Dessert--we both know what the topic at hand is.

My point was that an exec chef works 70-100hr weeks just to manage the main menu, payroll, food costing etc, so when is he going to tac on the time to self-eductate and execute a substantial dessert menu? The amount of off-hours work that goes into devoping and fine-tuning menus is never-ending.

Most chef's are just not passionate about creating desserts, and that is a far more crucial ingredient to sucess than schooling.

I guess we'll see in five years if I'm out of a job. If I am, I certainly won't go back to hotside, although i think I was pretty good at it. I'm not a pastry chef because I'm incapable of fabricating proteins or afraid of burners...I'm a pastry chef because I love being a pastry chef. I love desserts.

If pastry chefs do become an endangered species, it won't be because Sam Mason changed the way that people structure a meal, in the span of five years.

I am not splitting hairs.

It simply is an important point that most desserts are not pastry.

Thus there isnt much in the logic that requires a specific person trained only in one discipline in a small to medium restaurant.

Yes most chefs are not passionate about desserts nor could they care less and One would say how much do you really care when you dont really care about educating yourself on what may be the last thing that people eat in your restaurant..

You arent even in the discussion, you are just responding emotionally.

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hmm... whats your definition of pastry? im gonna say ours is diffrent than yours, anything produced in a pastry shop is pastry,,,,,,,but what the hell do pastry chefs know about pastry, wow this is stupid,

bro good luck with your dessert program or whatever you call whatever it is you do,

[Vadouvan]

i guess man, pastry chefs will be made obsolete by cooks that are competent in pastry, sorry. hmm what will we all be left to do? maybe open desert bars, or go work at hotels.

Yeah i guess the dining public will be satisfied with competent. Nothing like a multi course tasting menu that ends with some competent not that bad stuff, especially a multi course dessert menu of mediocrity....... vadovan are you a chef? do you do your own deserts? Have you spent anytime in a professsional kitchen, you seem to talk the talk,,,,,,, but can you back it up? Ive spent the majority of my adult life in kitchens across the country, and ive yet to meet a chef that thinks he knows better about desserts than a pastry chef,,,,, or at least that is foolish enough to claim to, and yes sauteeing is a basic pastry technique, as is brasing, poaching, roasting, frying these are all techniques we all know, and execute on a daily basis, i guess on that same train of thought one could claim that chefs in mid level restaurants will become obselete as well, but that would be foolish.

I guess that if your happy to work in a place that dosent care enough about the product they serve, than dont bother with a pastry chef. Its not really about egos, the "look at me i can do it too" but the customer and getting the best possible product in a timley manner, if your satisfied with your deal than thats great, you can always send your tournants to come "borrow" ideas from the guys that know what there doing.

Whether or not, if , when and where I cook is not at all the point.

Chefs by any logic will not become obsolete, someone still has to lead the food program, pastry is part of the food program, the point as I made earlier is that restaurant people tend to look as things adversarially. This isnt about chefs vs pastry chefs, it's about the increasing proliferation of Kitchen teams that make great products. Whether or not you have met any chefs who claim to be better at desserts than pastry chefs is simply irrelevant.

As I said to Sethro, this are emotional responses and logic is the first casualty of emotional responses, I did not say all pastry chefs will be obsolete, I said the concept of a pastry chef in all but the largest restaurants will decrease and it's happening already in lots of places.

Interestingly neither of you responded about the Plumpjack Cafe review which is a legitimate example of a well regarded restaurant in a major american city.

[Vadouvan]

anything produced in a pastry shop is pastry

That is precisely the problem.

This disagreement is simply a generational issue and it is an old school mentality to conclude that all restaurants need a pastry chef or the desserts will therefore be bad.

My previous reference to Mason is simply to show that the world of desserts, if you define desserts as "sweet endings to a meal" isnt all about what would be classically referred to as "Pastry".

Plus...um......most restaurants dont have pastry shops, they have one or two guys making desserts

and both of them combined arent making 90K

Edited April 3, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Vadouvan]

The reason I posted this topic was just for the reason stated above. I am so dense when it comes to pastry. Temperatures et al.. You can't wing it. It can easily turn out horrible. I am good in the hot kitchen and that is where my strengths lie so I won't even attempt to indulge my ego by thinking that I can train someone on pastry. You guys really came thru for me today on this topic. Pastry has to be really good to be noted. I am not willing to put out mediocre stuff out there. Especially when the food is going to be unbelievable.

Am I the only one who thinks its a little bizarre that you have an admittedly deafeatist attitude towards pastry but you are confidently able to describe your cooking as "UNBELIVEABLE" ?

[Vadouvan]

by the way it's time to hit the sack....

Let me leave you wth the 10 thousand dollar question.

Who is Alinea's current pastry chef ?

[tb86]

yeah im familliar w plumpjack, not really that impressed w it, sorry man,

you have any stats to back that up? its kinda funny because i see a increase in demand for pastry chefs as we become a more marketable asset to restaurants, in some cases we can become a major draw to a restaurant. Our press coverage has proliferated over the last 10 years demand for pastry educations has increased steadily over the last several years as well, we have our own pr agents, profession specific headhunters, high end cookbooks, magz, television shows, ect dude looks like were going out, restaurants that cant afford to have us on a full time basis are searching us out for consulting opps, yeah thats fine w me i guess. And yes, if you do cook does carry some weight w the discussion, if your a kitchen coach at dennys, or a big boy in the city changes the level of respect you'll get from us, thats the problem w the website, you dont have to have any creds to post your opinion, starting to doubt yours man

[Sethro]

Vadouvan:

I don't really want to redefine the wheel to argue with you. You differ on some matters that I consider to be fact, such as the existance of seperate pastry programs, the definition of pastry, etc.

Have to agree to disagree here.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Sethro (log)

[Vadouvan]

yeah im familliar w plumpjack, not really that impressed w it, sorry man,

you have any stats to back that up? its kinda funny because i see a increase in demand for pastry chefs as we become a more marketable asset to restaurants, in some cases we can become a major draw to a restaurant. Our press coverage has proliferated over the last 10 years demand for pastry educations has increased steadily over the last several years as well, we have our own pr agents, profession specific headhunters, high end cookbooks, magz, television shows, ect dude looks like were going out, restaurants that cant afford to have us on a full time basis are searching us out for consulting opps, yeah thats fine w me i guess. And yes, if you do cook does carry some weight w the discussion, if your a kitchen coach at dennys, or a big boy in the city changes the level of respect you'll get from us, thats the problem w the website, you dont have to have any creds to post your opinion, starting to doubt yours man

Outside of the obvious high profile, actually talented specific few who ALL reside or work in NYC like Mason, Stupak,Rouxel,Iuzzini et al, your statement is not true.

Would you give me an example of ONE restaurant in America that the primary draw is the pastry chef besides the implosion of Varietal ?

I am not asking for respect or tacit agreement, if you want to base the validity of the comments on what I do then so be it. I am simply posting opinions.

[tb86]

hmmm lets see, sherry yard at spago, michelle meyers at boule and sona, elizabeth falkner at citizen cake, franscois payard at payard, jaques torres at his own place, jeez lets see richard leach at park ave, goldfarb at r4d, mindy segal at hot chocolate, dude you want me to keep going,,,,, and if you would calm down a bit and re read what i wrote,,, did i say primary draw, i think not,,,my friend i did say a major draw lets go on some more, remy funfrock w ritz now, richard ruskell,, at montage,, hsu en min,,, wonyee tom,,, michele richard,,, forget he is a pastry chef???

all those guys are high profile, you can only think of that small group, kinda sad, dont seem to be to well educated in the buisness,

how about pierre herme, ever heard of that guy?

must be some one else that everyone goes to see

[Mikeb19]

i guess man, pastry chefs will be made obsolete by cooks that are competent in pastry, sorry. hmm what will we all be left to do? maybe open desert bars, or go work at hotels.

Yeah i guess the dining public will be satisfied with competent. Nothing like a multi course tasting menu that ends with some competent not that bad stuff, especially a multi course dessert menu of mediocrity....... vadovan are you a chef? do you do your own deserts? Have you spent anytime in a professsional kitchen, you seem to talk the talk,,,,,,, but can you back it up? Ive spent the majority of my adult life in kitchens across the country, and ive yet to meet a chef that thinks he knows better about desserts than a pastry chef,,,,, or at least that is foolish enough to claim to,  and yes sauteeing is a basic pastry technique, as is brasing, poaching, roasting, frying these are all techniques we all know, and execute on a daily basis, i guess on that same train of thought one could claim that chefs in mid level restaurants will become obselete as well, but that would be foolish.

I guess that if your happy to work in a place that dosent care enough about the product they serve, than dont bother with a pastry chef.  Its not really about egos, the "look at me i can do it too" but the customer and getting the best possible product in a timley manner, if your satisfied with your deal than thats great, you can always send your tournants to come "borrow" ideas from the guys that know what there doing.

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Food is food. Period. It really is all about ego, from what I can see in your posts. It's like the graduates from high end culinary schools, they think they know what's up until you really take them to school...

People wouldn't know it by looking at me, a poor kid from the projects, but I was taught to cook by several French chefs who themselves were brought up in 2 and 3 Michelin star restaurants. As for pastries, I've worked side by side with a Team Canada pastry chef, as well as some incredibly talented French pastry chefs. At the end of the day, taste matters. A cook can create desserts every bit as tasty as a pastry chef in the middle range of restaurants, you really don't need a pastry chef unless you're a huge hotel, or are at a 2/3 Michelin star level.

I've worked in restaurants that have won national acclaim and dozens of awards during my stay (not necessarily because I was there, however I certainly was a key team member). We didn't need a pastry chef (also won awards and got great reviews of our desserts).

Elitism sucks, and I've had to deal with far too much of it. I came from a poor family, lived in the projects, had no knowledge of gastronomy or even dining, and never went to culinary school so needless to say I've been ragged on by many. Of course, I've also risen to the top of many award winning kitchens, and my references and connections can get me into nearly any kitchen I want in the world (although I must say, I'd rather stay in my hometown, chill with my friends, fine dining is less interesting to me these days).

BTW, I'm not saying pastry chefs are worthless. Pastry shops are great, hotels and larger restaurants obviously use their services, I personally love making pastries, and have even worked as a pastry 'chef' (although I dislike the title, I'm just a cook in the end). But for many restaurants it's overkill, cooks can handle many pastry techniques. It's just like you don't need a CMC to run a pub.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Mikeb19 (log)

[Vadouvan]

hmmm lets see, sherry yard at spago, michelle meyers at boule and sona, elizabeth falkner at citizen cake, franscois payard at payard, jaques torres at his own place, jeez lets see richard leach at park ave, goldfarb at r4d, mindy segal at hot chocolate, dude you want me to keep going,,,,, and if you would calm down a bit and re read what i wrote,,, did i say primary draw, i think not,,,my friend i did say a major draw lets go on some more, remy funfrock w ritz now, richard ruskell,, at montage,, hsu en min,,, wonyee tom,,, michele richard,,, forget he is a pastry chef???

all those guys are high profile, you can only think of that small group, kinda sad, dont seem to be to well educated in the buisness,

how about pierre herme, ever heard of that guy?

must be some one else that everyone goes to see

Pierre Herme does not have a restaurant, he has a pattiserie.

Francois Payard whom I have cooked with on 2 occasions and is very talented isnt a great example.

Payard on Lex is a very good pastry shop but besides the desserts, there was a strong component of people going there for Phillippe Bertineau's bistro cooking which was fabulous at the time.

Jaques Torres has a chocolate factory and yes when he was at Boulud's, people werent saying lets go to Daniel and spend goobs of cash so we can eat Torres's deserts.

As to the rest of the people, yes i am aware of who hey are but the average member of the general public couldnt give two craps who they are, People go to restaurants to eat.

The Sona team is well known amnd are praised more because they have a story as opposed to the fact that they are catually doing anything nationally rave worthy.

Will goldfarb is like charlie parker, Keats and a pastry chef rolled into one and operating on a much higher plane of intelligence that the average person.

What seperates intelligent "pastry" chefs, Kitchens and leaders from the usual restaurant acrimony and jockeying for position is the will to work together and find your place while supporting the goals of the team.

Many of those in the food world have complete tunnel vision because they have xero exposure to other creative or liberal arts. In order for you to understand my points, I suggest you sir go out and buy the miles davis album "Kind of Blue" and listen to the collaboration betweem Miles, Coltrane, Cannnball Adderly,Jimmy Cobb and Paul Chambers.

It is singularly the best illustration of how 5 people can synergistically achieve higher goals.

Isnt that what a kitchen is about rather than walking around with bullshit titles on your jackets ?

Edited to add: next time you are in Paris, Herme is excellent but he isnt the cats ass, go check out Laduree, that place easily makes anything in NY look like pastry made in a federal prison's vocational kitchen

http://www.laduree.fr/

Edited April 3, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[adegiulio]

Edited to add: next time you are in Paris, Herme is excellent but he isnt the cats ass, go check out Laduree, that place easily makes anything in NY look like pastry made in a federal prison's vocational kitchen

http://www.laduree.fr/

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Thats the only thing I have agreed with you on during this thread.

You keep mentioning these very modern restaurants and using their kitchen team approach as a proxy for how every restaurant will be running their operation in 5 years. While there may be more of the type of chefs you cite, there will still be plenty of bistros, brasseries, and fine dining establishments that will be serving traditionally innovative food. They will still be using a disparate system where savory and pastry will be (for the most part) separate operations.

[Vadouvan]

Thats the only thing I have agreed with you on during this thread.

You keep mentioning these very modern restaurants and using their kitchen team approach as a proxy for how every restaurant will be running their operation in 5 years. While there may be more of the type of chefs you cite, there will still be plenty of bistros, brasseries, and fine dining establishments that will be serving traditionally innovative food. They will still be using a disparate system where savory and pastry will be (for the most part) separate operations.

Again I am not saying *ALL* pastry chefs wil be extinct, I am stating that the proliferation of broad knowledge based kitchens will increase.

Interesting I have gotten PM's from some nationally recognized chefs who agree with my general point. Maybe we are all crazy.

Answer me this...

Is a clear verbena infused watermelon consomme garnished with redcurrants and encapsulated balls of other red fruits made the same size as the redcurrants a dessert, a pastry item or both ?

By the way this is an actual menu item special I just had which was fantastic ?

[adegiulio]

Thats the only thing I have agreed with you on during this thread.

You keep mentioning these very modern restaurants and using their kitchen team approach as a proxy for how every restaurant will be running their operation in 5 years. While there may be more of the type of chefs you cite, there will still be plenty of bistros, brasseries, and fine dining establishments that will be serving traditionally innovative food. They will still be using a disparate system where savory and pastry will be (for the most part) separate operations.

Again I am not saying *ALL* pastry chefs wil be extinct, I am stating that the proliferation of broad knowledge based kitchens will increase.

Interesting I have gotten PM's from some nationally recognized chefs who agree with my general point. Maybe we are all crazy.

Answer me this...

Is a clear verbena infused watermelon consomme garnished with redcurrants and encapsulated balls of other red fruits made the same size as the redcurrants a dessert, a pastry item or both ?

By the way this is an actual menu item special I just had which was fantastic ?

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You are clearly having a very difficult time with the idea that you might be wrong. Your question is completely meaningless to the vast majority of restaurants. There may very well be teams of chefs creating items that would be consumed as dessert in addition to also creating menus of savory foods. Call it whatever you want, there will still be a need for pastry chefs in 5, 10, or 20 years. They will be serving tasty items made from flour, chocolate, sugar, fruits, etc., all at the same time other kitchen workers will be creating the dish which was the subject of your inane question. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[adegiulio]

And one more thing, nobody here is disagreeing with your main point, which I understand to mean that kitchens are evolving and some will be made up of employees (call them whatever you want) that are well versed in all aspects of food prep, from savory to sweet and everything in between. Those that disagree with you are disagreeing with your claim that there will be no pastry chefs employed at restaurants in five years.

[Vadouvan]

cooks can handle many pastry techniques. It's just like you don't need a CMC to run a pub.

And thank you MikeB19...

Many cooks especially the smart ones who understand the logic of what is possible with today's technology can come up with desserts that are quite delicious. In most cases, 80% of pastry chef concieved desserts are way to sweet to follow the continuity of the meal that preceeded it.

If i am making a caramelized endive tarte tatin to serve with bay scallops and sweetbread nuggets, whay the F cant I put f-ing apples and caramel in it's place.

Singularly the worst thing that has happened to the food business in terms of young cooks in the last 10 years is the ACF indoctrination of the young ones to strive for those silly titles like CEC, CMC ect ect. Even the frenchies get together and call themselves maitre cuisinier de france while they are serving tuna tartare in thir flagships......it's all BS.

Learn to cook, cook everything.

If I hand a 13 year old kid from south central LA a creme anglaise recipe and a thermonix, he can make it as well as any CIA graduate with an hour.

[Vadouvan]

You are clearly having a very difficult time with the idea that you might be wrong. Your question is completely meaningless to the vast majority of restaurants. There may very well be teams of chefs creating items that would be consumed as dessert in addition to also creating menus of savory foods. Call it whatever you want, there will still be a need for pastry chefs in 5, 10, or 20 years. They will be serving tasty items made from flour, chocolate, sugar, fruits, etc., all at the same time other kitchen workers will be creating the dish which was the subject of your inane question. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I am not having a difficult time with the fact that I may be wrong, I am actually having some raisin challah with gorgonzola dolce and a glass of Anselmi's Recioto Soave.

Back to my point, if you read what I last said.....

Again I am not saying *ALL* pastry chefs wil be extinct, I am stating that the proliferation of broad knowledge based kitchens will increase.

It seems like rather than have a philosophical discussion on the future of restaurants, all I did was rile up a bunch of pissy pastry chefs.

By the way why is the BINDI truck parked outside several manhattan restaurants with "pastry chefs" ???

http://www.bindiusa.com/bindiusa/index_flash.htm

I wont name names but lets not be hypocrites.......

[adegiulio]

Again I am not saying *ALL* pastry chefs wil be extinct, I am stating that the proliferation of broad knowledge based kitchens will increase.

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Up until the post where you first said that, it was your position that there would be no pastry chefs outside of big restaurants and hotels. That is what made no sense....

[Vadouvan]

Up until the post where you first said that, it was your position that there would be no pastry chefs outside of big restaurants and hotels. That is what made no sense....

You sir should not take such statements as absolutes on the internet, perhaps I should have been more succint.

By the way the elephant is still sitting on the coffee table......why hasnt anyone answered this question ?

Let me leave you wth the 10 thousand dollar question.

Who is Alinea's current pastry chef ?

[Vadouvan]

Gilt under Paul Liebrandt was fabulous, I was lucky enough to have two great meals there.

All the desserts were terrible both times.

This is why it is in the interest of chefs to care about dessert programs.

CRU on the other hand, the food was boring, Goldfarbs desserts were fun for me but conceptually outside the scope of understanding of Frank Bruni.

Will eventually found his footing at R4D and both he and Bobbbeee make good stuff

It goes both ways.

Per Se, the food was mostly good, the egregious supplement prices were absurd, the desserts ranged from prose-enhaced 2.5 on the richter scale to little silly post dinner creme brulees.

JGV columbus circle had good food and iuzinni's deserts were great.

WD50 had a dinner that was a culinary interpretation of listening to Miles davis Bitches Brew.

You either liked it or you didnt get it.

Masons dessert on the other hand was like listening Arvo part's music, you approach with dubious suspicion but you leave with a smile

Chikalicious was interesting.

Cant wait to taste P-ong.

Buddakan meatpacking is just plain absurd dessert wise.

[docsconz]

By the way the elephant is still sitting on the coffee table......why hasnt anyone answered this question ?

Let me leave you wth the 10 thousand dollar question.

Who is Alinea's current pastry chef ?

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I'll bite. At the moment and since the middle of last summer it has been none other that Grant Achatz since Alex Stupak moved to WD-50 and Jordan Kahn moved to NYC where he subsequently opened then left Varietal. I have not been back to Alinea since Alex and Jordan left, but have no doubt as to Chef Achatz' abilities. I did have the pleasure of enjoying WD-50 and Varietal with Chefs Stupak and Kahn respectively and both were great.

This is an interesting topic. My own viewpoint is that there will always be a place for a talented pastry chef even if Vadouvan's prognistication becomes mostly true, which I think it will as there simply aren't sufficient pastry chefs at that name recognition level and the economics will rule. What Varietal taught is that savory and sweet components of a restaurant really should be on the same wavelength or the juxtaposition can be jarring. I am noticing more savory chefs in fine dining restaurants controlling the dessert sied as well as the savory even if they work with a pastry chef. Of course, some do it better than others and do it quite well, while those who don't should probably get the appropriate help.

[adegiulio]

By the way the elephant is still sitting on the coffee table......why hasnt anyone answered this question ?

Let me leave you wth the 10 thousand dollar question.

Who is Alinea's current pastry chef ?

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An elephant? You think too much of yourself. Nobody will answer since the question has no general relevance to the topic.

Please, in your next post, drop some names for us. We are very impressed with you.

[docsconz]

funny thing about this topic is that I think that NYC is currently enjoying a major renaissance of great desserts in varying styles. Vadouvan hit upon a few in his post above.

[wkl]

"An elephant? You think too much of yourself. Nobody will answer since the question has no general relevance to the topic."

why is it irrelevant? alinea is one of the great restaurants in the country. apparantly, there is no current pastry chef. i think the question is totally relevant.

just because some people don't like the answer doesn't make the question irrelevant.

[adegiulio]

"An elephant? You think too much of yourself. Nobody will answer since the question has no general relevance to the topic."

why is it irrelevant? alinea is one of the great restaurants in the country. apparantly, there is no current pastry chef. i think the question is totally relevant.

just because some people don't like the answer doesn't make the question irrelevant.

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By showing that one highly acclaimed restaurant no longer has a pastry chef doesn't affirm his point that all or even most restaurants are heading in that direction.