Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 5)

howsmatt · April 9, 2009

Thanks guys.

I was not referring to scum but to the fact that the sauce (which I did not dilute much) once it got cold turned into jelly. Obviously I could dilute but the flavour was good and fast to make. I didn't think about xanthan, that might be a great double purpose item.

Which corolase would you suggest for sauce made from poultry or beef?

"The only way to not have this fat is to trim it out, preferably before cooking. If you can get your hands on some Activa, you could trim out most of the hard pockets of fat and re-bind the meat before cooking. I've done this with a chuckeye roast."

Sadly that's what I figured, but sometimes you guys have answers out of left field. I really like chuck eye for a potentially super cheap steak frite. I'll have to see how much the Activa would add to the cost per plate. Do you use the powder or liquid?

Edited April 9, 2009 by howsmatt (log)

slkinsey · April 9, 2009

I've used both the powder kind and the kind you mix with water. My thinking is that the liquid kind is a little easier to apply to something that's likely to have a bunch of crags and slivers and little crannies in it like a chuckeye that you've dug around in with a knife to remove the sinews and the big pockets of hard fat. You can just brush it on with one of those silicone brushes and really get it in to all the hidden places where you need binding.

**nickrey** · April 10, 2009

I assume you're referring to the "scum" that coagulates when you boil the exuded meat liquid from a sous vide bag? That's not gelatin. I find that it's quite easy to remove this by skimming as much as possible while gently simmering, then turning off the heat and allowing the coagulant to settle, then pouring off the clear liquid (through a fine sieve, if you like).

Can I follow this up? I find when you remove the scum, pour off and strain the liquid, this very clear liquid is almost pure beef flavour.

Does anyone know what this is? What is the scum? The latter looks like the residue that you get in a pan when you don't have it hot enough to grill and it starts to stew in its own juices.

My interest is that the clear liquid provides the basis for some of the best sauces I have made for beef.

jackal10 · April 10, 2009

Its what was called in the old days "osmazone" the heart of the beef.

Its the intramuscular fluid sqeeezed out as the muscle fibres contract - the fluid part of the muscle cells.

The scum is the remaining proteins in the fluid coagulating as the temperature increases.

tomdarch · April 10, 2009

Drat! Partial success with a coffee urn, but with a limitation.

I got ahold of a coffee urn (Mr. Coffee "45 cup" CBTU45). My new Auber PID controller seemed to auto tune very nicely, ending up pulsing periodically to keep the temp at 60C.

One big plus is that the urn heats water from a depressed "pit" at the bottom of the tank. You can watch the currents of heated water moving up and away from this point, and the sides are uninsulated, so it would seem to generate a fair amount of convection currents. I had the PID probe pretty low in the tank, and another thermometer pretty high and to the side of the tank. They agreed pretty consistently. This was without bagged food in the tank. I will probably get a bubbler, regardless.

The problem is that the urn has two modes - an initial full heat "brew" mode and a lower temp "serving" mode. That "serving" mode seems to be limited to about 63C, with the PID on (to some degree) continuously. For the hour or so that I ran it in this mode, the PID did not feel warm on top or bottom. My inference is that the "serving" mode pulls a pretty small number of watts to maintain that temp, so the PID should be OK in terms of heat.

So, for most meat cooking, a practical max. temperature of 60C would be just fine, but I'm hoping to do various vegetables (typically cooked around 85C) and "well done" eggs (70C to 80C). Along the lines of eggs, I'm also hoping to experiment with egg preparations like creme brulee and cheesecake. There should be some potential for savory and/or cheese egg preparations. Low temp water bath should allow for "perfect" cooking of these, without a risk of overcooking.

Well, I'm going give some meat a try, and get back to looking for a big, cheap rice cooker.

dougal · April 10, 2009

It sounds to me as though your unit has a thermostat limiting it to that 63° (in 'serve mode').

Or maybe two elements, one with that thermostat.

Anyway, you need to keep that stuff out of play, so that the PID has control.

It seems the best hot baths for retro-fitting with PID control are the dumbest.

If you could keep it in 'brew mode' you should be fine.

If not, you'll need to bypass that thermostat. And preferably the whole brew/serve thing. If you don't have prior experience of tinkering with mains electronics, see if you can find a friendly (and adventurous) repair shop.

Ideally, you want to bypass ALL the controls (except maybe a simple on/off switch) - basically connecting the heater element directly to the power (via that on/off switch). And then supply the power via your PID.

Just tell the repair shop that you want to use an EXTERNAL thermostatic control (which you already have), and you want to use it because it is ADJUSTABLE, and they should understand!

Wattage.

To maintain a specific set temperature, the energy consumed will depend on the heat lost from your urn. Which will increase with a higher temperature setting.

But once it is 'up to temperature', the power used does NOT depend on the rating of the heater element.

If you use a higher wattage heater, it will run for fewer seconds on each PID (2 minute?) cycle. The product of watts times time (energy) will be the same.

And so should be the heating of your PID's solid state relay. (As long as you observe the current (wattage) limits the supplier has indicated.

Most appliances (so likely your urn) have a plate (or sticker) with various details like model ID, serial number and the maximum wattage rating.

The only thing you really need to watch is that the power drawn during 'warm up' - until it gets close to the set temperature - is going to be greater at that stage with a higher wattage element - so it will warm up faster!

Two ways around that. Either fill it with pre-heated water, or bypass the PID (plug the urn directly to a power outlet) and watch the temperature for yourself until it is in the right neighbourhood, then switch off and reconfigure to use the PID.

tomdarch · April 10, 2009

Dougal - Thanks! I'm right there with you on all those points.

I'm focusing my "hobbyist energies" on actual cooking currently, so I don't think I will be reverse engineering the pot's wiring or busting out the soldering iron. (Unless I come across a similar unit in a junk shop for very cheap....) I'm just going to track down a big, cheap, dumb rice cooker and go with that. Sadly, that may involve some trips to Chinatown and the suburban Asian Megamarts. Oh, poor me. :biggrin:

For now, I'm slogging through this very long thread looking for appealing recipes that don't require temperatures over about 60C.

I hope our input is helpful to anyone who may have one of the awful devices collecting dust in their pantry. These percolators certainly shouldn't be used for burning coffee!

**nickrey** · April 10, 2009

Its what was called in the old days "osmazone" the heart of the beef.
Its the intramuscular fluid sqeeezed out as the muscle fibres contract - the fluid part of the muscle cells.
The scum is the remaining proteins in the fluid coagulating as the temperature increases.
←

Thanks Jack,

That was exactly what I was looking for. Interestingly when researching this on the web, I came across this quote which apparently addresses howsmatt's question. It is from 1850 and seems marvellous to me that new techniques lead us back to our heritage to again move forward.

Extract from Alexis Soyer, “The Modern Housewife Or Menagere” 1850, copyright dated 1849, D. Appleton & Company (this is well out of copyright so am including the quote in full).

“66. Pure Osmazome, Or Essence Of Meat

Take two pounds of the flesh of any animal or bird (the older the better for obtaining the true flavor), as free from sinew as possible, and mince it well; place it in a Florence oil-flask, and cork it; put this in a saucepan filled with cold water, leaving the neck uncovered ; place it on the side of the fire until the water arrives at 160° Fahr., at which temperature it must remain for twenty minutes; then remove it, and strain the contents through a tammie, pressing the meat gently with a spoon; should it require to be kept for some time, put the liquor in a basin or cup, which place in the saucepan; subject it to a boiling heat until it is reduced to a consistency like treacle, removing the scum ; this, when cold, will become solid, and will keep for any number of years. Osmazome is known under various names in different cookery books, as "fumet, essence," etc, but which are obtained in a different way, which causes the gelatine to be produced with the osmazome; but, by the above plan, it is left in the meat, and the osmazome, with a small quantity of the albumen, is extracted, and the albumen is afterwards removed as the scum.”

At 160F (or 71 C), the temperature used is higher than sous vide and I'm not sure how the essence solidifies without gelatine -- perhaps the gelatine is not really "removed" in the process.

Perhaps we could use this process to create the ozmazome by long sous vide, discarding the meat used in its creation much as we do when making stock.

Logic suggests that if the resultant liquid were to be dehydrated, we'd end up with a refined stock powder or, if pressed, a stock cube.

e_monster · April 11, 2009

I think that you will find that tabletop roasters (Nesco, Hamilton Beach, etc.) are cheaper than rice oookers of equivalent volume. You will definitely need to auto-tune then and use a bubbler, too. They can be had for about $40 and hold a lot of water. The rice cookers do have some advantages, though.

Dougal - Thanks! I'm right there with you on all those points.
I'm focusing my "hobbyist energies" on actual cooking currently, so I don't think I will be reverse engineering the pot's wiring or busting out the soldering iron. (Unless I come across a similar unit in a junk shop for very cheap....) I'm just going to track down a big, cheap, dumb rice cooker and go with that. Sadly, that may involve some trips to Chinatown and the suburban Asian Megamarts. Oh, poor me.
For now, I'm slogging through this very long thread looking for appealing recipes that don't require temperatures over about 60C.
I hope our input is helpful to anyone who may have one of the awful devices collecting dust in their pantry. These percolators certainly shouldn't be used for burning coffee!
←

Mikels · April 12, 2009

Drat! Partial success with a coffee urn, but with a limitation.
I got ahold of a coffee urn (Mr. Coffee "45 cup" CBTU45). My new Auber PID controller seemed to auto tune very nicely, ending up pulsing periodically to keep the temp at 60C.
One big plus is that the urn heats water from a depressed "pit" at the bottom of the tank. You can watch the currents of heated water moving up and away from this point, and the sides are uninsulated, so it would seem to generate a fair amount of convection currents. I had the PID probe pretty low in the tank, and another thermometer pretty high and to the side of the tank. They agreed pretty consistently. This was without bagged food in the tank. I will probably get a bubbler, regardless.
The problem is that the urn has two modes - an initial full heat "brew" mode and a lower temp "serving" mode. That "serving" mode seems to be limited to about 63C, with the PID on (to some degree) continuously. For the hour or so that I ran it in this mode, the PID did not feel warm on top or bottom. My inference is that the "serving" mode pulls a pretty small number of watts to maintain that temp, so the PID should be OK in terms of heat.
So, for most meat cooking, a practical max. temperature of 60C would be just fine, but I'm hoping to do various vegetables (typically cooked around 85C) and "well done" eggs (70C to 80C). Along the lines of eggs, I'm also hoping to experiment with egg preparations like creme brulee and cheesecake. There should be some potential for savory and/or cheese egg preparations. Low temp water bath should allow for "perfect" cooking of these, without a risk of overcooking.
Well, I'm going give some meat a try, and get back to looking for a big, cheap rice cooker.
←

I have used an urn with a PID controller and it works ok. BUT watch out for the heater at the bottom - it gets quite hot. I put a folding steamer platform on the bottom so it would not melt the bags.

Robert Jueneman · April 12, 2009

For cheap rice cookers of limited capacity (1.8 liters or "10 rice cups," which doesn't seem to have any correlation with any other form of standardized measurement I have found), the plastic shell 500 watt Ikeda (made in China, although a Japanese name) costs about $21, whereas the 650 watt stainless steel Tiger (Made in Japan) of the same nominal capacity cost $145 but looks more "professional" and might be more durable. The Ikeda is marked "For Home Use Only," whereas the Tiger is not.

A Chinese "50 bowl" (another rather ambiguous measurement) 10 liter 1500 watt apparently well-made and well-insulated commercial rice cooker/warmer made by the Tar Hung Mfg. Thunder Group, Inc. cost me $185 (marked down from $240) in a Chinese restaurant supply store in Milpitas, CA.

I have seen a 22 quart electric powder-coated black "turkey fryer" with mechanical controls that would be suitable for sous vide, for $79 at www.masterbuilt.com. They say that you can store oil in it, but not water (I suppose it might rust). There is also a 28 quart stainless steel version for $145 but it might have to be modified to disable the digital controls for use with a PID controller (probably not hard, for anyone with a soldering iron). The bad news is that these fryers aren't insulated and therefore won't be nearly as energy efficient as a rice cook for slow, low-temperature cooking, but the good news is that they are almost surely easier to control, with less overshoot or undershoot, because of their lack of insulation.

howsmatt · April 14, 2009

Did a brisket. My usual 40 or so hours at 131. Good-not great.

Lamb shoulder and chuck steak still tops.

The lamb I put into wonton wrappers after searing with mint and oregano. Pan fry the wrappers which are Folded like a tortellini. Filled with tzatziki, tomato, purple onion and cucumber. This is a big hit-crunchy, savory, fresh.

If I sear a piece of meat on all sides what's the lowest temperature I can safely cook it for 40 hours or so? Is it still 131 (aka over 127.5)? I would like the beef to be a little more rare.

**nickrey** · April 14, 2009

I've done the experiment to extract ozmazome from mince.

One kilo of mince was cooked sous vide for 14 hours at 56 C (133 F). It threw a relatively large amount of liquid.

I snipped off the corner of the bag and removed the juice. Having the bag mostly intact, I could squeeze the mince to get as much juice out as possible.

The resultant liquid went into a gravy jug. 1 kg gave around 150 ml of liquid along with another 50 ml of fat. I poured off as much as I could from under the fat.

This went into a saucepan over relatively high heat to coagulate the proteins. This can be seen in the following four pictures.

This was then filtered through doubled cheesecloth with this resultant residue.

Some additional liquid was trapped in the gravy jug under a layer of fat, which I put in the fridge to set. I then poked a hole in the fat and poured off the residual juice. This was again heated and filtered.

The resultant light brown/transparent liquid went into the fridge and solidified.

The gel yielded from 1 kg of meat is 80g. The mince is destined for my dog.

I'm not sure how this compares with the output from the extraction technique quoted above from Alexis Soyer but it seems relatively efficient.

The taste of the ozmazome is pure essence of beef. I use it in sauces. Needless to say, it doesn't need to be reduced.

KennethT · April 14, 2009

Fascinating!!! What cut of meat did you use for the mince?

MaxH · April 14, 2009

... The mince is destined for my dog.
←

What a dog's life! :-) Pépin (in his popular English-language La Technique, 1976) said this leftover minced beef can also make a good meatloaf "with addition of eggs, bread crumbs, and seasonings."

Osmazome is one of those concepts frequent in older food books. (Where I get most of my food-history info -- relatively little is online.) Samples below. Note (1) anything albuminous (raw meat juices especially blood; eggwhite; etc.) coagulates at moderate temperature to nickrey's residue ("scum" to us stock skimmers) and (2) it's written that lean beef leaches out maybe half its weight as soluble products if simmered long enough. I gather osmazome meant the flavored part of soluble extracts, vs. simple gelatin, though in years of making meat glazes I never tried to separate them.

Brillat-Savarin, 1826 (Physiology of Taste in MFK Fisher's edition): "Osmazome is that preeminently sapid part of meat which is soluble in cold water, [unlike] the extractive part of the meat," defined as soluble only in boiling water. He goes on about its properties. Brillat was incidentally an evangelist for chocolate.* Alexandre Dumas (Dictionary of Cuisine, 1873, Colman's ed.): "There are five principles in meat from which bouillon derives its flavor ... fibrin, gelatin, osmazome, albumin, and fat." ("An old pigeon, a partridge, or a rabbit roasted in advance, a crow in November or December," can impart more osmazome to a bouillon.) Remember that next Autumn: crows are overabundant in many places. André Simon's gastronomic encyclopedia (1952) says Thénard named osmazome and defined it as the part of meat extracts soluble in alcohol.

For the science behind this, Belle Lowe's remarkable Experimental Cookery (3rd ed. 1943) doesn't mention osmazome as such (the concept became obsolete, replaced by more specific chemical information) but is crammed with food-science data, solubilities, literature refs. (the index has maybe 150 entries under "meat," many of them relevant here), all focused not on abstract science but flavor.

* Example, typical Brillat: "When you have breakfasted well and fully, if you will drink a big cup of chocolate at the end you will have digested the whole perfectly three hours later, and you will still be able to dine . . . Because of my scientific enthusiasm and the sheer force of my eloquence I have persuaded a number of ladies to try this, although they were convinced it would kill them; they have always found themselves in fine shape indeed, and have not forgotten to give the Professor his rightful due."

howsmatt · April 15, 2009

Did pork tenderloin at 131 then seared. It was no more pink than I normally cook it. Personally I wouldn't go above this temp-although I am more adventurous than some. Good result-quite juicy. Needs flavour in the bag though, sauce on top isn't enough. Next time I will add fat and jalapeno pepper jelly to the bag.

N.B. Jalapeno pepper jelly on a pork roast (done in my little rotisserie) is awesome, sweet, spicy, sticky gooey, with fatty pork...MMMmmmmm.

Has anyone tried a turkey, chicken or regular burger with SV?

Matt

dougal · April 15, 2009

Isn't any sort of sv 'burger' (or other ground/minced meat product) a rather bad idea from the food hygiene standpoint?

**nickrey** · April 15, 2009

As it was an experiment, I just grabbed some lean beef mince from a local butcher, ensuring that it was pure mince with no added preservatives: of what cut, I'm not sure although topside is a favourite cut for mince here in Australia.

The beauty of the technique is that you are not interested in texture but rather, for want of a better term, the "meat juice".

The quote from Alexis Soyer I gave earlier says the older the better to get the true flavour of the meat but, like most stocks, I suspect that this will come to be made from whatever is available.

**nickrey** · April 15, 2009

... The mince is destined for my dog.
←
What a dog's life! :-) Pépin (in his popular English-language La Technique, 1976) said this leftover minced beef can also make a good meatloaf "with addition of eggs, bread crumbs, and seasonings."
←

When the meat was packed away in the fridge, it was rolled tightly in the sous vide bag. Even without the addition of binders, when cool it formed into something resembling meatloaf that could be cut with a knife into slices. I can see where Pepin would have come up with this concept.

The cooked beef had a nice texture from the sous vide process but, as you would expect from what was done to it, tasted like a significant amount of the beef flavour had been leached out.

NY_Amateur · April 15, 2009

...
Has anyone tried a turkey, chicken or regular burger with SV?
←
Isn't any sort of sv 'burger' (or other ground/minced meat product) a rather bad idea from the food hygiene standpoint?
←

I would say not really, provided to achieve proper 5/6d reduction times maintaining an intact surface isn't really a concern. in fact given adequate temp and time, a sv burger would be considerably safer then a regular grilled burger.

howsmatt · April 16, 2009

What is the maximum size pot I could use with an immersion circulator? It would be for a restaurant so getting up to temp time is not important--I just need to keep it steady all day/night. Obviously the more prep I can do at once the better.

Thanks again.

BTW the xanthan did a great job with the sauce.

Matt

Edited April 16, 2009 by howsmatt (log)

Robert Jueneman · April 16, 2009

Howsmatt, I can try to answer your four recent questions.

1. I can't speak to immersion circulators, as I believe they are overkill for most applications, unless you have a large restaurant and are really doing volume cooking with an extremely large one. I'm using a 10 liter rice cooker with the Sous Vide Magic (SVM) PID controller from www.freshmealssolutions.com. The 20 liter rice cooker is way larger than I personally need for the two of us, but there are 24 liter (and perhaps larger) rice warmers that are relatively efficient, and use only only an 85 watt heater. They won't bring the water up to a temperature, at least not quickly, but they will hold it there. So you should fill it from your hot water line, and perhaps top it off with a tea kettle, to bring it up to temperature. For the difference in money, you could buy four rice cookers with SVM controllers for the price of one PolyScience circulator, and have one for medium rare, one for medium, and one for medium well, plus one left over for vegetables or whatever.

2. For brisket, try 48 hours, rather than 24. It will make all of the difference in the world in terms of tenderness. Been there, done that. Note -- that wasn't a corned beef brisket, which seems to be more common in grocery stores.

3. I'm sure that Thomas Keller would roll over in his grave at the thought (so to speak, as I certainly hope that St. Thomas is still alive), but I have been doing hamburger sous vide for a month or so and loving it -- had it tonight, as a matter of fact. (Perhaps I'm not the greatest backyard chef, especially when the wind was blowing 50 mph and the temperature was below 50F, even here is balmy San Jose when the power went out last night -- its tough to cook sous vide with no electricity! But I digress.) My grilled hamburgers were never consistent -- too tough, too rare, not juicy enough, etc. With sous vide, you can control those factors one at a time. Currently, I'm using 55.5 C on my Sous Vide Magic 1500B for about an hour and a half for burgers that are about 20 mm thick, and according to Douglas Baldwin's table 5.8, 1:37 should be sufficient to pasteurize beef for a 6D reduction of Listeria. Since we used to eat steak tartare, albeit 40 years ago, that doesn't seem unreasonable. For a restaurant, I might add another 30 minutes or so, and I might also grind my own meat, and add some onions into the grind while I was at it.

4. If you look at St. Douglas's tables again, 5:14 is enough for even a 70 mm thick piece of meat at 131F, vs. 4:26 at 136F. I cook my steaks at around 131 because my wife doesn't like really rare roast beef, and it isn't worth firing up two SVM systems (although I now have three -- a 1500A, 1500B, and 1500C,. and three rice cookers of varying sizes from 1.8 liters to 10 liters). So if you are talking about 127.5F, extrapolation would suggest that another 38 minutes (5:52) would be more than enough, even for the thickest steak or brisket you are likely to serve to an individual, and 40 hours is way over the top. (This assumes you aren't picking up exotic bacteria from undersea lava vents or the pools at Yellowstone, or from Mercury or Venus.)

dougal · April 16, 2009

...
Has anyone tried a turkey, chicken or regular burger with SV?
←
Isn't any sort of sv 'burger' (or other ground/minced meat product) a rather bad idea from the food hygiene standpoint?
←
I would say not really, provided to achieve proper 5/6d reduction times maintaining an intact surface isn't really a concern. in fact given adequate temp and time, a sv burger would be considerably safer then a regular grilled burger.
←

How does that work for Clostridium botulinum?

Isn't that the major worry (in terms of seriousness of outcome) with any 'comminuted meat' product in a low oxygen, non-acid, environment at these 'warm' temperatures? And where the centre is not going to benefit from post-sv searing?

Edited April 16, 2009 by dougal (log)

FoodMan · April 16, 2009

3. I'm sure that Thomas Keller would roll over in his grave at the thought (so to speak, as I certainly hope that St. Thomas is still alive), but I have been doing hamburger sous vide for a month or so and loving it -- had it tonight, as a matter of fact. (Perhaps I'm not the greatest backyard chef, especially when the wind was blowing 50 mph and the temperature was below 50F, even here is balmy San Jose when the power went out last night -- its tough to cook sous vide with no electricity! But I digress.) My grilled hamburgers were never consistent -- too tough, too rare, not juicy enough, etc. With sous vide, you can control those factors one at a time. Currently, I'm using 55.5 C on my Sous Vide Magic 1500B for about an hour and a half for burgers that are about 20 mm thick, and according to Douglas Baldwin's table 5.8, 1:37 should be sufficient to pasteurize beef for a 6D reduction of Listeria. Since we used to eat steak tartare, albeit 40 years ago, that doesn't seem unreasonable. For a restaurant, I might add another 30 minutes or so, and I might also grind my own meat, and add some onions into the grind while I was at it.

I am ssuming you are searing the burgers after CSV. Right?

NY_Amateur · April 16, 2009

...
Has anyone tried a turkey, chicken or regular burger with SV?
←
Isn't any sort of sv 'burger' (or other ground/minced meat product) a rather bad idea from the food hygiene standpoint?
←
I would say not really, provided to achieve proper 5/6d reduction times maintaining an intact surface isn't really a concern. in fact given adequate temp and time, a sv burger would be considerably safer then a regular grilled burger.
←
How does that work for Clostridium botulinum?
Isn't that the major worry (in terms of seriousness of outcome) with any 'comminuted meat' product in a low oxygen, non-acid, environment at these 'warm' temperatures? And where the centre is not going to benefit from post-sv searing?
←

My understanding is that botulism needs time to germinate and produce nasty toxins. I don't think you should cook and hold burgers or any ground meat, but if you grind some beef, make a burger, cook the burger and then eat the burger in the time it takes you to do this, I can't see it being a problem but I am not a micro-biologist.

Also its not like you have to cook burgers low and slow, you just want to bring them to temp, they are already plenty tender.