Where to get the haute-cuisine experience, cheap

[Nathan]

oh sure...I think it does come out of the bar dining trend....which is still primarily an uniquely NY phenomenon (do they do this extensively in SF as well?)...but it'll spread.

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I think even moreso in SF, as it's a much more casual vibe fitting in with the culture - we love eating at the bar at places like Boulevard, Zuni, even the Slanted Door. And, fwiw, I think Stars was one of the first great bar dining scenes in the country.

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cool...that's what I was wondering.

I've eaten pretty extensively in Chicago, Atlanta, South Florida, etc...and there's no bar dining to speak of...I was wondering if CA was different...it makes sense that it would be.

[Nathan]

we're talking about haute-based food with luxe ingredients...it'll never be "cheap"...but can it be much lower-priced than a four-star? absolutely.

if I had to throw a definition out there -- the food is haute based in some sense (i.e. not just rustic or home-cooking style), prepared in a manner that bespeaks extensive classical knowledge and/or training on the part of the chef (anyone want to take a bet that Wylie couldn't make every single thing on the La Grenouille savory menu on almost a moment's notice?), luxe ingredients are used where appropriate, at a quality level that is at least three-star if not approaching four-star, but served in an informal and casual surrounding.

this is the trend that I believe FG, Bruni, et al are speaking of.

for purposes of this thread I think FG wants to limit the discussion to places where the price is correspondingly depressed to match the surroundings (ruling out L'Atelier...which I think otherwise fits).

[KarenSherwood]

As a long-away soon-to-be visitor, I'd LOVE to see an approximate definition of 'inexpensive' relative to this thread. I got to sneak out maybe once every month for a splurge dinner (over $50 per person) in 1984. How would that figure in today's NYC scene, at maybe $75 per person? (excluding wine & tip)

[oakapple]

I haven't been two WD-50 in over a year.  The price isn't really what I was thinking about.  More the aesthetics of the front of the house experience.

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Nowadays, this isn't really that unusual in New York. BLT Fish, Perry St., and A Voce are three examples of restaurants that serve three-star food in settings that aesthetically would formerly have been considered casual. I don't think those are the kinds of places FG was referring to.

we're talking about haute-based food with luxe ingredients...it'll never be "cheap"...but can it be much lower-priced than a four-star?  absolutely.

if I had to throw a definition out there -- the food is haute based in some sense (i.e. not just rustic or home-cooking style) ... at a quality level that is at least three-star if not approaching four-star, but served in an informal and casual surrounding.

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I'm curious what you consider to be the luxe ingredients at Momofuku Ssam Bar. I agree with Bruni about "Chang’s wicked grasp of flavor and unerring sense of balance." But there's a pretty big gulf between luxe ingredients and french fries, and Chang is somewhere in that middle ground—probably on the luxurious side of the midpoint, without quite getting there (or trying to). If any reviewer were inclined to award three stars when the food justified it — irrespective of ambiance or formality — it's Frank Bruni. And he awarded two stars.

[oakapple]

As a long-away soon-to-be visitor, I'd LOVE to see an approximate definition of 'inexpensive' relative to this thread. I got to sneak out maybe once every month for a splurge dinner (over $50 per person) in 1984. How would that figure in today's NYC scene, at maybe $75 per person? (excluding wine & tip)

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For the overall NYC market, I would say that an inexpensive three-course meal these days is under $30 (excluding tax, tip, and beverages), mid-price is $30-60, expensive is $60-90, and luxury is >$90.

When FG asked his question, I don't think he meant literally cheap, but "cheap haute-cuisine" — which could, in fact, be mid-priced or even expensive, as long as it's "cheap for what you get."

You need to bear in mind that discussion of truly cheap eats is under-represented on eGullet. The demographic here is skewed towards people who are more willing than the general population to spend large amounts of money on dining out. So you find eGullet people who regard Bouley Upstairs as "cheap," even though the average person wouldn't say so.

[hshiau]

oh sure...I think it does come out of the bar dining trend....which is still primarily an uniquely NY phenomenon (do they do this extensively in SF as well?)...but it'll spread.

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I think even moreso in SF, as it's a much more casual vibe fitting in with the culture - we love eating at the bar at places like Boulevard, Zuni, even the Slanted Door. And, fwiw, I think Stars was one of the first great bar dining scenes in the country.

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cool...that's what I was wondering.

I've eaten pretty extensively in Chicago, Atlanta, South Florida, etc...and there's no bar dining to speak of...I was wondering if CA was different...it makes sense that it would be.

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I've actually eaten at the bar at a couple of places in Boston I don't know if it's just the couple of places I hit (No 9 Park and Radius) or if it's a general culture.

One place I've eaten in the "lounge" area at in Chicago is Tru. Can't call it bar dining but it does have a separate menu that I would call "haute".

[Nathan]

oh sure...I think it does come out of the bar dining trend....which is still primarily an uniquely NY phenomenon (do they do this extensively in SF as well?)...but it'll spread.

←

I think even moreso in SF, as it's a much more casual vibe fitting in with the culture - we love eating at the bar at places like Boulevard, Zuni, even the Slanted Door. And, fwiw, I think Stars was one of the first great bar dining scenes in the country.

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cool...that's what I was wondering.

I've eaten pretty extensively in Chicago, Atlanta, South Florida, etc...and there's no bar dining to speak of...I was wondering if CA was different...it makes sense that it would be.

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I've actually eaten at the bar at a couple of places in Boston I don't know if it's just the couple of places I hit (No 9 Park and Radius) or if it's a general culture.

One place I've eaten in the "lounge" area at in Chicago is Tru. Can't call it bar dining but it does have a separate menu that I would call "haute".

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oh, I've eaten at the bar around the country...it's just that I was one of very few people doing it.

everytime I go to Chicago I always eat at Frontera Grill. everytime I'm enormously amused by the line out the door of people waiting more than two hours (literally) for a table....while there are numerous spots at the bar where one can eat.

[Nathan]

I'm curious what you consider to be the luxe ingredients at Momofuku Ssam Bar. I agree with Bruni about "Chang’s wicked grasp of flavor and unerring sense of balance." But there's a pretty big gulf between luxe ingredients and french fries, and Chang is somewhere in that middle ground—probably on the luxurious side of the midpoint, without quite getting there (or trying to). If any reviewer were inclined to award three stars when the food justified it — irrespective of ambiance or formality — it's Frank Bruni. And he awarded two stars.

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uni, truffles.

edit: per FG, the use of dashi and other "haute" asian ingredients

Edited February 27, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

When I speak of haute cheap, I'm thinking of main courses in the teens -- most or all of them, not just one pasta dish at $19, though a place with most mains in the teens can have a $30 lobster or other splurge item without being disqualified (I hasten to add that at Upstairs the lobster dish is $21). Whether you go to such a place and spend $17 on a plate of food with a glass of tap water, or you put together a more elaborate menu with wine that costs $150 per person, the restaurant still offers entrees in the teens.

The haute sensibility is evident in many ways on Momofuku Ssam's menu, for example listing several different country hams by producer ("Col. Bill Newsom's Country Ham, Princeton, Kentucky," "Finchville Farms Country Ham, Finchville, Kentucky," "Edwards Wigwam Smoked Ham, Surry, Virginia," "Benton's Smoky Mountain Country Ham, Madisonville, Tennessee.") The concept of haute applies neatly to Asian cuisine because many Asian cuisines really do have, just as French cuisine does, long and distinct traditions of "high" and "low" cooking.

[oakapple]

Uni and truffles weren't mentioned in the Bruni review, and I don't recall seeing them on the menu when I was there. But I hear that Chang is experimenting every day, so perhaps they're in one day, out the next.

The artisanal hams FG mentioned are good examples.

[Fat Guy]

The uni dish, on the Momo-ssam website, is "Santa Barbara uni, whipped tofu, black tapioca." Of course you can get uni at lots of sushi bars, but again the place designation plus the unusual garnishes is more haute than low (how do you say the opposite of haute in French?), and that's not taking account of any actual technical cooking expertise at play. Even the bread and butter follows trends that are coming from places like Per Se and Ducasse -- you get "St. Helen's Farm goat's butter (England); Burro da Tavola (Italy)."

[Sneakeater]

Just as a point of fact, the uni dish has been on the menu every time I've been to Momofuku Ssam over the last couple of months. The truffle dish, most times.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

the egg custard dish uses truffles on occasion...but yeah, the menu seems to change almost daily

[Sneakeater]

Yeah, THAT truffle dish.

[Sneakeater]

Big deal, but I happened to order the uni dish the first day it was on the menu.

They were REAL proud of that one.

[Eatmywords]

Are we talking dinner only? The very affordable Perry St lunch could be a contender (among many others)

[Nathan]

Perry Street doesn't fit into the new paradigm we're describing.

even though it doesn't use tablecloths, it's still fundamentally within the classic fine dining structure.

[oakapple]

Perry Street doesn't fit into the new paradigm we're describing.

even though it doesn't use tablecloths, it's still fundamentally within the classic fine dining structure.

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So far, it still looks like a short list of places with very tenuous similarities, while other apparently similar places are conveniently excluded because they don't support the desired conclusion.

[Sneakeater]

I think it's true that there are very few extant places that actually fit this paradigm.

And I agree that the title FG gave to this thread sort of misses a few key features of the places appropriately classed the way I think he means.

But I also think we all pretty much know what he's referring to.

I mean, I don't think anyone's excluding Perry Street or WD-50 because they don't reach the desired conclusion (whatever that may be). They're just not the kind of places FG appears to be reaching for.

To me, the hard case is Atelier Robuchon. It sort of exhibits all the features of one of these places -- except for its absurdly high prices. Is that really enough to exclude it?

Edited February 27, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[weinoo]

To me, the hard case is Atelier Robuchon.  It sort of exhibits all the features of one of these places -- except for its absurdly high prices.  Is that really enough to exclude it?

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Only on the basis of the title of this thread!

[ned]

More grist for the mill: Fatty Crab.

Whether or not it corresponds to the letter of the thread title, in the service of an inquiry into the elusive quality we're hunting, I'm going to stick with the quality of the front of the house as a very important component to this trend. High food, executed by canon-based cooks in an environment where nobody calls you sir, there aren't tablecloths, and in some way or another. . . something about an acceptance of a certain sort of ill-manneredness. Messy eating is encouraged.

I was imagining, ok fantasizing the other day about the prospect of eating Delouvrier's Ducasse food served at Prune by Prune's servers but at slightly larger tables. The price, to me is a lesser issue in terms of this zeitgeist

Edited February 27, 2007 by ned (log)

[Nathan]

To me, the hard case is Atelier Robuchon.  It sort of exhibits all the features of one of these places -- except for its absurdly high prices.  Is that really enough to exclude it?

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Only on the basis of the title of this thread!

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that's why I said that other than FG's given price parameter..I think L'Atelier easily fits the given paradigm.

[Nathan]

More grist fr the mill:  Fatty Crab

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nope...it's well-executed takes on Asian street food and home cooking. I love the place, don't get me wrong, but that's what it is.

(yes, some of the menu at Ssam Bar fits in that category...but much of it is quite a bit more elevated than anything at Fatty Crab)

in other words, remember where this thread came from - the Bouley Upstairs and Ssam Bar threads.

This is not a "cheap but really really good" thread. (we already have those)

[Nathan]

Perry Street doesn't fit into the new paradigm we're describing.

even though it doesn't use tablecloths, it's still fundamentally within the classic fine dining structure.

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So far, it still looks like a short list of places with very tenuous similarities, while other apparently similar places are conveniently excluded because they don't support the desired conclusion.

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eh, Bouley Upstairs, Ssam Bar and Degustation have blatantly strong similarities with each other that they most certainly do not have with Perry Street and the like.

[daisy17]

To me, the hard case is Atelier Robuchon.  It sort of exhibits all the features of one of these places -- except for its absurdly high prices.  Is that really enough to exclude it?

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Yeah, I had the same problem but that's why I mentioned it - other than that, it's exactly what we're talking about. In fact, I think the concept is what motivated Robuchon to get back in the business . . . .