Gordon Ramsay to Take On NY

[ulterior epicure]

I'm sure you've all read about it already, but just in case: NY Times

[cchen]

I'm very excited about the opening! Too bad no photos will be allowed

Edited September 6, 2006 by cchen (log)

[Nathan]

maybe if people knew how to shoot at high ISO's and not use the flash in formal restaurants there wouldn't be the backlash against photographing your food...

I know this is anathema on egullet, but I find flash photography inside a formal restaurant to be really disruptive. most of the fancier point and shoots that people seem to be using these days have an option to up the ISO. you can always clean out any noise and grain afterward in photoshop. and if you have a DLSR there is simply no excuse at all. the assumption that you have to use flash in low lighting comes from the days of film cameras when it was impossible to get a decent shot at an ISO above 400.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[oakapple]

maybe if people knew how to shoot at high ISO's and not use the flash  in formal restaurants there wouldn't be the backlash against photographing your food...

I know this is anathema on egullet, but I find flash photography inside a formal restaurant to be really disruptive.

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As far as I know, Ramsay is the first restauranteur to take such a militant stance. (The Times reports today that "any patron trying to take pictures of [the food] would be banned.") I haven't kept track, but I think photos from just about every high-end restaurant in town have appeared on eGullet or a food blog at some point or another. I don't get the impression that it's so common that it really justifies a policy statement. Edited September 6, 2006 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

I believe Alinea bans flash photography.

[Vadouvan]

I agree with Oakapple, certainly flash photography can be disruptive in a "fine dining" atmosphere.

However you can stick a $100 lens that lets in tons of light on a digital SLR like a Canon Rebel XT or Nikon D-50 and up and get excellent detailed pictures, besides most photo importing software has pretty good enhancement features.

Most of Philadining's pictures use no flash as I have eaten with him several times...

None of these pics were taken with a flash...

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=92185

The way it reads in the Times isnt one of discouraging intrusive flash photography, it's one of making sure no one takes pictures of the food.

Certainly Gordon should be given the benefit of the doubt as we are well aware that every time you talk to the press, between the actual conversation and printing, accuracy sometimes takes a vacation.

If on the other hand Gordon Ramsay actually wants to discourage any photography with the threat of banning customers, that would just amount to stupidity and BS.

Fact is pictures of food from *ALL* the most revered restaurants on the planet

El Bulli

French Laudry

Arzak

Per se

Ducasse

Bras

Arpege

Ect ect

are on e gullet and countless blogs, between Augieland, Pim, UE and Plotnicki not to mention others.

Even Gordon Ramsay's food on hospital road is at ....

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=4836&st=210

So what's the BFD......

I think it's the writer taking some creative latitude.......

[Nathan]

Vadouvan: agreed. I assume there's a Nikon equivalent to the Canon 50/1.8 (a great if limited low light lens and the greatest bargain in photography at $75)?...but like I said, even P&S, which I think most people here use usually have high-ISO options..eliminating the need for a flash

[Jon Tseng]

For reference Pierre Gagnaire in Paris is well-known for discouraging happy snappers, although sometimes people do slip through the net.

Speaking from a UK perspetive, Gordon Ramsay delivers well executed, consistent but not massively original mod-French food. Given the competition I see in NYC, my gut feel is he will have take take a step up in terms of either execution or innovation in order to make a splash.

J

[Vadouvan]

he will have take take a step up in terms of either execution or innovation in order to make a splash.

At this point, I have eaten at all his places except amaryllis and the execution is near perfect, the issue is creativity and originality, Most of the food can be described as "old school" by American standards while being delicious. In fact his best restaurant in London in my opinion is Maze on Grosvenor sq. maze is like an Atelier without an actual cooking bar but dining at the bar at Maze in London has been one of my best bar experiences....and the best cocktail list I have ever seen.

I am looking foward to that London Bar side of his new restaurant....

[AlexForbes]

Certainly Gordon should be given the benefit of the doubt as we are well aware that every time you talk to the press, between the actual conversation and printing, accuracy sometimes takes a vacation.

Vadouvan, as a food journalist who's interviewed many chefs (Daniel, Heston, Ferran, Cantu, etc etc etc) , I find your statement insulting and false. Sorry.

As for taking photos, I agree with most of you: flash photography is disruptive (and makes the place feel touristy). I am pretty sure they wouldn't bother those taking slow speed photos, without a flash, like I do - I often use my wine glass as an improvised tripod!

[kkwchan]

Yap, even Pierre Gagnaire who has a strict no-photo policy is on Egullet.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=86878

[docsconz]

Certainly Gordon should be given the benefit of the doubt as we are well aware that every time you talk to the press, between the actual conversation and printing, accuracy sometimes takes a vacation.

Vadouvan, as a food journalist who's interviewed many chefs (Daniel, Heston, Ferran, Cantu, etc etc etc) , I find your statement insulting and false. Sorry.

As for taking photos, I agree with most of you: flash photography is disruptive (and makes the place feel touristy). I am pretty sure they wouldn't bother those taking slow speed photos, without a flash, like I do - I often use my wine glass as an improvised tripod!

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Alexandra, I do not think that Vadouvan meant to cast aspersions on the press as a whole, but having been the victim of inaccurate reporting in the past on some non-food issues, I can assure you that what Vadouvan speaks of does happen. Unless I know a reporter well or have faith in that person's ability and desire to render a fair interview, I no longer respond to interviews verbally. Instead I answer written questions in a written format. I do not think you should take personally the transgressions of some of your colleagues. I do not do so in Medicine.

[Vadouvan]

Vadouvan, as a food journalist who's interviewed many chefs (Daniel, Heston, Ferran, Cantu, etc etc etc) , I find your statement insulting and false. Sorry.

Alexandra, I do not think that Vadouvan meant to cast aspersions on the press as a whole, but having been the victim of inaccurate reporting in the past on some non-food issues, I can assure you that what Vadouvan speaks of does happen. . . . I do not think you should take personally the transgressions of some of your colleagues. I do not do so in Medicine.

Thanks Doc, if ALL physicians were perfect. we would never see Xrays of surgical tools and swabs inside people weeks after undergoing surgery.........but they are out there, it certainly doesnt mean all doctors suck.

Alexandra.....2 things..

First you have a great website and I like finding out about new writers and bloggers so kudos to that.

2. As doc mentioned, journalistic accuracy *IS* a problem that isnt specific to the world of food.

My statement wasnt to attack you personally so there is virtually no reason for you to be offended. Besides, I think it's worse for you to disagree that accuracy is an issue because it just encourages the behaviour. Even worse than outright inaccuracy is selective editing that re-contextualises the point you were making. Journalists arent sensitive to that which is why I dont say jack to any food writer any longer.

Case and Point: Earlier this year, I was interviewed by a publicaton about Stephen Starr about what I thought of his restaurants as someone who had worked for him in the past......

I said:

Stephen is a great guy on a personal level, although people trash his places as being unoriginal, i personally think they are missing the point, its about execution and most of his restaurants do it as well or better than the alleged places that inspired them"

The publication for the sake of editing said:

"he is a great guy but the restaurants are copied from other concepts"

So you see, not all food writers walk on water.....

I seriously doubt Gordon Ramsay said he would ban anyone in his restaurant with a camera that was my point.

besides, you need to feed the Japanese tourists in NYC................

[oakapple]

I seriously doubt Gordon Ramsay said he would ban anyone in his restaurant with a camera that was my point.

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The quote, I believe was specifically in reference to people shooting photos of the food. A general "family shot" on a special occasion wouldn't get you banned.

Now, aside from the fact that journalists may (but do not always) misquote their source, or paraphrase to the point that the original meaning is lost, what makes you think it happened in this case?

[Vadouvan]

The quote, I believe was specifically in reference to people shooting photos of the food. A general "family shot" on a special occasion wouldn't get you banned.

Which when you interprete the above statement, it becomes so absurd that you wonder why any intelligent person would make it anyway....does that mean there will be a photo-nazi in the dining room checking camera angles or the tables will have ejector seats ?

What exactly consttitues "banning", will they take your picture on the way out like a shoplifter to assure "banned" patrons no longer return.........the whole thing is just silly.

Now, aside from the fact that journalists may (but do not always) misquote their source, or paraphrase to the point that the original meaning is lost, what makes you think it happened in this case?

NOTHING.......but the absurd rationale in my answer above.....!

......I said "I THINK the writer was taking creative latittude"

THINK is the contextual word that disclaims that the following statement after it is based on MY observation and not a widely accepted fact.........!

Edited September 8, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[ulterior epicure]

Whoa... I thought that I was subscribed to this this thread, but I guess I wasn't.

So, no pictures of the food? Man!! All of my (recent - ie. within the last 4 months) photos have been taken without a flash. Yes, Alinea, included (twice w/o flash).

I've taken photos in cave-like restaurant (as you will see ), but since I invested in a nice lens (as Vaudovan points out), I haven't really needed a flash. It just takes some practice (okay, lots), and some post-production adjustments (okay, sometimes a ton) on Photoshop, or some other post-editing program.

I suspect that if true, G.R.'s policy is not for fear of disruption - as clearly many have pointed out that non-flashing photography isn't really that disruptive. Rather, it's the point-and-critique type of exercise that goes on on this very forum (and others) that G.R. might be trying to avoid/minimize. I suspect that even-more troubling to G.R. is the fact that his ideas - plating, presentation, combinations, etc... - will be spread throughout the world for other chefs to crib... That's just my take on it.

Well, if G.R. is going to be that stiff on the no-photography rule, then he's lost me as a potential client. I would really like to try his food - but if I can't take the memories I want from a meal that I pay for, then I simply won't go at all. Of course, I'd call the restaurant to confirm that this policy is in effect before making any judgments.

u.e.

[Vadouvan]

I suspect that if true, G.R.'s policy is not for fear of disruption - as clearly many have pointed out that non-flashing photography isn't really that disruptive. Rather, it's the point-and-critique type of exercise that goes on on this very forum (and others) that G.R. might be trying to avoid/minimize. I suspect that even-more troubling to G.R. is the fact that his ideas - plating, presentation, combinations, etc... - will be spread throughout the world for other chefs to crib... That's just my take on it.

Well, if G.R. is going to be that stiff on the no-photography rule, then he's lost me as a potential client. I would really like to try his food - but if I can't take the memories I want from a meal that I pay for, then I simply won't go at all. Of course, I'd call the restaurant to confirm that this policy is in effect before making any judgments.

u.e.

UE....

GR isnt at all even close to being on the cutting edge of creativity or plating to the degree that other chefs are lining up to crib his ideas, certainly not anywhere near PerSe for example.

Look at the UK gullet thread.

Its just properly cooked and basically plated food.

UE.... I would be interested in your reports from London, you ought to take a trip.

The British definition of creative is much different from the American one.

The best meal I had there was at GR's Maze and La Trompette is Chiswick, Aikens.

I suspect if GR had realised he would eventually open a restaurant in NYC, he may not have signed deals to Star in reality shows that portrayed him as a holier than thou raving lunatic.

Now everyone know's he can talk and tear people down, they just want to see if he can back it up with serious food.

Bloggers arent as active in the UK to the degree that they are in the states besides, I suspect that 99% of the typically british tasting palate is flawed.

A lot of the stuff that made him famous and notorious in London probably would not fly in NY.

Can you Imagine telling Frank Bruni to get the F out of your restaurant ?

I imagine most International celebrity chefs opening in NYC now try to keep a low profile to avoid Ducassian welcomes......

Edited September 9, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[ulterior epicure]

UE.... I would be interested in your reports from London, you ought to take a trip.

The British definition of creative is much different from the American one.

The best meal I had there was at GR's Maze and La Trompette is Chiswick, Aikens.

I suspect if GR had realised he would eventually open a restaurant in NYC, he may not have signed deals to Star in reality shows that portrayed him as a holier than thou raving lunatic.

Now everyone know's he can talk and tear people down, they just want to see if he can back it up with serious food.

Bloggers arent as active in the UK to the degree that they are in the states besides, I suspect that 99% of the typically british tasting palate is flawed.

A lot of the stuff that made him famous and notorious in London probably would not fly in NY.

Can you Imagine telling Frank Bruni to get the F out of your restaurant ?

I imagine most International celebrity chefs opening in NYC now try to keep a low profile to avoid Ducassian welcomes......

←

... and here I must defer and desist, for I admittedly am not very familiar with GR's food. (I'll even admit that I've never even watched an episode of his show - "Hell's Kitchen"?) You're right - I haven't been in Britain for nearly a decade now (last time was in college) and I have a lot of eating to do over there - St. John's, Fat Duck, GR, Waterside Inn, etc. *Sigh* I would love to visit.

So, your take, Vaudovan (if I'm reading you correctly), is that GR's no-photo policy, if true, is more out of a fear of rampant online criticism? Hrmmm... that's interesting.

By the way, would you say that Blumenthal is the most (only?) "cutting-edge" chef in the U.K.?

u.e.

[Vadouvan]

So, your take, Vaudovan (if I'm reading you correctly), is that GR's no-photo policy, if true, is more out of a fear of rampant online criticism? Hrmmm... that's interesting.

Again , my opinion but I am preeeetty certain thats the deal.

You gotta admit trying to establish an upper echelon signature restaurant is hard enough, but in NYC you must be walking on pins and needles.........rusty ones...!

By the way, would you say that Blumenthal is the most (only?) "cutting-edge" chef in the U.K.?

Depends on how much you know and how you define cutting edge..

Not to give Clintonian answers...BUT Fat Duck is the most well known because PR builds on PR and they do have some unique interesting dishes.

The Achilles heel of FD however is that an overwhelming majority of the menu hasnt changed in about 3 years and that is across seasons.....same food, spring, summer winter.

Imagine if Jean George was still serving the original Jojo food.

I thought the food at Ramsay's place on the square, some of it while not "molecular" was creative....I remember vanilla shallots with Orkney Salmon and pork belly....awesome...!

My opinion, i think the most cutting edge chef .......and food I have had in Britain was Anthony's in Leeds, kinda a hike from London but well worth it.

Croissant veloute anyone .....

It was deeeeelicious.

Here is there site.......scan the gallery

http://www.anthonysrestaurant.co.uk/

and the requisite e gullet thread....

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=37235&st=0

[Andy Lynes]

my gut feel is he will have take take a step up in terms of either execution or innovation in order to make a splash.

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Or alternatively he could have two hit TV series and a chat show in the pipeline which might help his raise his profile a bit.

[H. du Bois]

I don't think his problem is a low profile - I think his problem may be that he has the wrong profile.

He is known in the states, not so much for being a chef, but rather for being a hotheaded television personality. We know he's an asshole, but can he cook?

I'm really curious about this opening, as it's going to truly test the waters of the celebrity chef phenomenon. How far will name recognition alone carry someone, and what kind of goods will they need to back it up?

[Sneakeater]

my gut feel is he will have take take a step up in terms of either execution or innovation in order to make a splash.

←

Or alternatively he could have two hit TV series and a chat show in the pipeline which might help his raise his profile a bit.

←

This will sound unduly chauvinistic, but I don't think New Yorkers are impressed with that kind of celebrity. We either take it for granted, or actively denigrate it. Nobody takes Bobby Flay seriously here anymore, and it's a real testament to Mario Batali's cooking that his repute here has survived his media exposure.

So that shit might help with the tourists. But I don't think any of the locals are gonna run to a restaurant cuz the executive chef has two TV series and a chat show.

Edited September 10, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Vadouvan]

but I don't think New Yorkers are impressed with that kind of celebrity. We either take it for granted, or actively denigrate it.

They may not be impressed but they do notice, those kinds of restaurant startup expenditures are only hapening in NY/Vegas/AC......so what do those 3 places have in common ?

Massive swarms of people of which the fact that they may or not be locals is irrelevant.

Ramsay is doing it because NY is the capital of high end in the USA.

yes / no ?

[docsconz]

but I don't think New Yorkers are impressed with that kind of celebrity. We either take it for granted, or actively denigrate it.

They may not be impressed but they do notice, those kinds of restaurant startup expenditures are only hapening in NY/Vegas/AC......so what do those 3 places have in common ?

Massive swarms of people of which the fact that they may or not be locals is irrelevant.

Ramsay is doing it because NY is the capital of high end in the USA.

yes / no ?

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He's doing it because, "if you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere!"

[Simon_S]

I suspect that 99% of the typically british tasting palate is flawed.

←

This seems quite an extreme viewpoint. In what way do you consider it "flawed"?

Si