Pastry Experts Please Help! re: Pate Brisee

[MarkIsCooking]

Pastry experts, please come to my rescue!

I'm a new culinary student and I just can't figure out where I'm going wrong with my Pate Brisee. I'll do my best to describe what's happening and any guidance you have would be SO appreciated.

PROBLEM: Crust when baked is very hard (i.e. need lots of elbow action to get a fork to cut through it).

I'm making sure that my butter is cold, cold surface, cold hands and ice water (but not using any ice).

I'm wondering if my problem is when I'm combining the butter with the flour. I'm using my thumb and fingers to combine the 2. Any tips on this process?

I'm creating a trough and adding the water only 1T at a time. I'm doing my fluff very gently and using a pastry scraper to be sure I'm getting the water fully incorporated.

I'm taking the dough to a point where it's not too moist (my instructor warned against too much water), but the doug does hold together. I form it into a disc and chill thoroughly before rolling out.

I am NOT over rolling and using relatively few rolls to get it prepped for the pan.

I'm blind baking for 10 minutes and then baking until light golden brown.

Anything clear on where I'm going wrong? Any tips that could help me?

Thanks!!!!

-Mark-

[jackal10]

What flour are you using?

Me, I just whack it all in the robo and whizz until it forms a ball.

Seems to work.

[K8memphis]

I would not use my fingers to cut in the butter. You're working up too much gluten so it's tough. If you can't use a food processor, use a coupla forks or a pastry blender dealie. Betty Crocker says to add the fat in two portions. Take the first go round to a meal consistency for tenderness then add the remainder and cut it in till it looks like the size of peas, this for flakiness.

You literally cut in the flour. What you are doing is mushing it in.

Sprinkle the water all at once. No sense diddling around. The less you work it, as you already know, the better. I sprinkle the water over all of it and use a fork to fluff around. It just comes together fine.

This is pie crust right? The french names throw me.

I use a large flat-ish bowl, it's probably 12 " across and only like 4-5 inches deep so I can easily get to all the powder without re-smushing it. Also, the sides of my bowl mimic the angle of my pastry cutter. Since you are having trouble, only go around your bowl, cutting the fat in 4-5 times for the first go round, 3-4 times for the second go round.* Have your butter in small-ish pieces. Umm, I use my pastry cutter to lift a scoop of the mixture and sift it back through the cutter to be sure things are fairly well combined. Some larger bits of fat are fine but a lot should be finely combined.

Just cut in the fat in one or two portions. Cut it. Don't mush it. Sprinkle water over all. Fluff with fork. Smush together--if you can tell it's gonna be dry add another tablespoon of water. Pick it up, it will all come together. But next time, add that tablespoon into the first and only amount of water you add.

Don't over think and don't over work it. Don't diddle.

*If you add all the butter at once, then go around like 5-6 times. Even if it is under combined, you will be able to get it right on the following batch because you can judge the difference between your fist of rock crust and the (if it's) under worked batch . But I think you will get it this time.

[K8memphis]

Besides, your fingers are also warming the butter. You don't want to warm the butter at all.

I imagine you learned this finger smush technique in school. And maybe going forward after you make some good pie crust you can go back and figure out how to do it that way. But make a few good ones first.

It just doesn't make sense to make it that way. Although my son was instructed to make it that way too.

This will sound funny but even Gale Gand said that when she interviews people to work with her she determines if they have hot hands or not. Hot hands are a problem for baking*. There are a thousand factors to baking one simple thing that can be unique to each ingredient and tool and person.

Be encouraged. The most important thing is passion. So you're golden.

* piping and chocolate work, smushing pie crust etc.

Edited January 27, 2007 by K8memphis (log)

[CaliPoutine]

I make mine in the cuisinart. First I pulse the flour and salt together. Then I add the cold cubed butter and pulse that a few times, then I add the water and pulse until it comes together. I dump it out onto a piece of saran wrap and form it into a round and chuck it in the fridge.

I've even taught my spouse to make it and she hates to cook or bake.

Btw, I use Martha Stewarts recipe.

[Carolyn Tillie]

All great suggestions here and I'll add one more -- instead of refrigerating it as a fully round ball, I form my just-made dough into a longish slab; when it comes to rolling it, the dough will once again be worked less as it is already somewhat flat.

[miladyinsanity]

I stick the bowl of butter and flour into the fridge in between cutting in the butter, which helps if you live in a very hot place, like I do.

[MarkIsCooking]

KB -

Thanks for your lengthy response!

Yes, Pate Brisee is the classic pie crust dough.

I will definitely give it another go. At this point, the school requires us to do everything by hand (no Robo Coup or anything like that).

I'll let you know how I make out.

Mark

[Kerry Beal]

Mark,

If you aren't allowed to use a food processor (my preferred method for any pastry), are you allowed at least to use two knives or perhaps a pastry fork to cut the fat into the flour?

[alanamoana]

to be honest mark, it could even be that you're not cutting the fat into the flour enough. sounds counterintuitive, but let me explain and i might contradict others here so bear with me:

if we're talking about a flaky pie dough, you want to have pieces of fat left whole so that when you roll out and bake your pastry, the flat pieces of fat will melt, leaving layers of air between baked dough layers. sort of like a quick puff pastry without the turns.

i find that my problem is i actually under mix my fat into the flour (my pieces of fat are too big). this leaves the flour available to absorb water and thus creates gluten which in turn bakes up to be tough crust. the only time you're developing gluten (sorry k8) is when it is activated with the addition of water. if you cut your fat into the flour a little more, there is less flour available to absorb water and thus less gluten available to develop once you create a dough.

i think this is why the food processor method works so well. it is fast, the blade is sharp and you end up mixing the dough a touch more than you would by hand, so the fat is a little bit more combined, thus 'shortening' the gluten strands.

there is also another definition for pate brisee which confuses the issue. the french term can mean a 'mealy dough'. the only difference being that with this version, you're almost completely combining the fat into the flour, coating all of it with fat so you only need a tiny bit of water to create a dough. sort of like a neutral or savory short dough.

the text book "on cooking" by labensky and hause use the term pate brisee to mean both flaky and mealy dough and expands on this by describing the two mixing techniques.

the fear of over working the fat into the flour has been my downfall. i agree with k8 when she refers to betty crocker who says to add part of the fat and work it in pretty well and then add the rest and leave the second addition the size of peas or corn kernels. but i do think you should work it with your hands so that you know what it all feels like and what it should look like before you start using a food processor.

[K8memphis]

i find that my problem is i actually under mix my fat into the flour (my pieces of fat are too big).  this leaves the flour available to absorb water and thus creates gluten which in turn bakes up to be tough crust.  the only time you're developing gluten (sorry k8) is when it is activated with the addition of water.  if you cut your fat into the flour a little more, there is less flour available to absorb water and thus less gluten available to develop once you create a dough.

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No worries. For sure there would be no pie crust without the water and the baking. I do find that finger method to be much less effective than a pastry blender.

I've read recipes that say to add the water bit by bit like Mark is doing but I've never been able to see how that works to advantage with pie crust. To me it's diddling.

One baker's 'never ever do' is the next baker's 'I swear by this', huh.

[tino27]

K8memphis and alanamoana both make excellent points ... however, I'll throw something else out there for consideration as well. When I was taught to make pate brisee, we definitely used the food processor, but as an additional step after the water was incorporated, we dumped the contents onto the counter and then proceeded to 'frisage' the dough once -- using the palm of your hand, basically press down on the dough, a little bit at a time. Once that is done, form a disc, wrap in plastic and into the fridge it goes.

Any thoughts on this technique? I don't make pate brisee all that often, but it comes out just fine.

[MarkIsCooking]

You guys rock (even if you don't all agree)!

Update on my Pate Brisee saga and a few answers to questions posed. They do, by the way, teach us to Frisage ("massage") the dough with our palm pushing out (not down) as you would with a massage stroke. Just once or twice before forming the disk and refrigerating.

After some of the posts, I did another crust yesterday. [by the way, I've started doing my test batches as half-recipes to avoid having all these crusts piling up around me!. My family thinks I'm nuts on this whole crust thing.]

I used the fork method rather than my fingers. It did seem to be both flakier and not nearly as tough. I don't think I'm there yet, but clearly on a better path.

I'm curious about the knife someone mentioned. I was wondering if pushing on the butter/flour with forks was 'working' the dough, though I did have better results as I mentioned. How does using a knife work? Are you literally 'cutting' the butter into the dough (as the expression goes)?

Thanks for all the help!!!

[Kerry Beal]

I'm curious about the knife someone mentioned.  I was wondering if pushing on the butter/flour with forks was 'working' the dough, though I did have better results as I mentioned.  How does using a knife work?  Are you literally 'cutting' the butter into the dough (as the expression goes)?

Thanks for all the help!!!

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Two knives, one in each hand, pulling the knives across the fat in opposite directions. I tend to use those nice old bone handled knives that I find in thrift stores, they are smooth, not serrated. Very helpful if you don't have a pastry fork around.

[Catherine Iino]

Mark--

I'm so glad you posted this thread; I have exactly the same problem (although I'm not in culinary school and can use the food processor or whatever), and it's been driving me crazy. I've tried Rose Levy Beranbaum's anal compulsive method and every other one I could find. I can get the crusts to come out looking gorgeous and tasting okay, but they're too often tough. Lately, I've decided it might be my rolling technique. I've always rolled between sheets of waxed paper, out of fear of adding to much flour in the rolling, but I started wondering if that was actually leading to the dough being compressed rather than sliding outward (does that make any sense?)

That said, I did make an all lard crust recently (used it for tourtiere) and it was the cat's pajamas. I used a pastry cutter and rolled on a floured board. But I've experienced all-butter crusts made by other people that were wonderfully flaky, light, and delicious. So I'm still working on it.

[Lindacakes]

I worked very hard at perfecting my pie crust as I had an ideal (my mom's, I was lucky) that I wanted to achieve. In the process, I took a class with Carole Walter that changed the whole thing for me. I made it by hand until I had it perfect, then I switched to the food processor. Carole told me to go home and make four more pies the same week. It took me longer, but I made a lot of pie. Some of what follows is Carole, some is experience.

Here's a couple of tips --

Freeze your fat. I'm assuming you have to use the recipe you are given so the type of fat(s) is not in question. I won't go there, but it's a big topic.

Slice your fat, once frozen and stick it back in the freezer.

Chill every utensil you plan on using. Chill the room.

When you cut the fat into the flour, don't go down to pea size. Pea size is too small. Twice that.

If you cut with a pastry cutter, do not rock or twist the pastry cutter, which is the natural thing you want to do with it -- it's curved. Chop with it. I find you get better control cutting with knives.

Add the smallest amount of water you can get away with. The amount you need to use depends on the atomosphere that day. It will vary. When you add the water, sprinkle it around the entire perimeter of the bowl and work it down to the center. Work it as little as possible.

When you form the disk of dough to put in the fridge, dust it lightly on the outside with flour. This creates a seal. Wrap it in plastic.

When you roll your dough out, use as little flour as possible. Do not roll back and forth. Roll from the center outwards. Work the face of the clock. Center to 12. Center to 3. Center to 6. Center to 9. Quarter turn. Go around the clock again, doing more numbers. Quarter turn. Etc. I found that the rolling pin I was using made a big difference. I got a large, solid maple one that spins very easily.

If you see penninsulas and inlets forming, fix them right away. Cut the peninsulas off with a bench knife, patch the inlets. Don't use the rolling pin to try to fix them.

Good luck! Perfect pie crust is totally worth working for!