Have we become too "matchy"?

Craig Camp · January 3, 2007

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.
When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American.
Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.
←
As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine.
←

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Obviously I love the regional foods and wines of Italy. What does this have to do with this argument? Please clarify.

Pan · January 3, 2007

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.
When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American.
Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.
←
As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine.
←
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Obviously I love the regional foods and wines of Italy. What does this have to do with this argument? Please clarify.
←

It seemed to me that you were criticizing both the lack of variety in wines on sale in shops in Europe and the fact that certain European wines are largely exported, rather than drunk in other regions of Italy, for example. And my counterargument is that if you want to match a regional cuisine with a wine, the intuitive thing to do is to select a local wine, not one from outside the region or country. Does that clarify the context of this discussion I'm having with you?

Fat Guy · January 3, 2007

The local wines of, say, France, are about as diverse as can be. You maybe get a small increment of diversity if you add in the wines of the whole world, but the wines of any single major wine nation are incredibly diverse, as can be the wines of many single regions. I mean, Spain produces everything from sherry to cava to Vega Sicilia; in France you can have a Banyuls, a Bordeaux or a Beaujolais and those are just reds; they make everything in these places. So it doesn't seem to me that there's appreciably less variety or complexity to an all French or all Spanish wine list than to an international one. With a few notable exceptions, the world's top wine restaurants tend to max out at 1,500 or so wine choices. For purposes of establishing breadth, depth, complexity or required knowledge it makes little difference if they're all from Spain or if there are 500 each from Spain, France and Italy.

JohnL · January 3, 2007

The local wines of, say, France, are about as diverse as can be. You maybe get a small increment of diversity if you add in the wines of the whole world, but the wines of any single major wine nation are incredibly diverse, as can be the wines of many single regions. I mean, Spain produces everything from sherry to cava to Vega Sicilia; in France you can have a Banyuls, a Bordeaux or a Beaujolais and those are just reds; they make everything in these places. So it doesn't seem to me that there's appreciably less variety or complexity to an all French or all Spanish wine list than to an international one. With a few notable exceptions, the world's top wine restaurants tend to max out at 1,500 or so wine choices. For purposes of establishing breadth, depth, complexity or required knowledge it makes little difference if they're all from Spain or if there are 500 each from Spain, France and Italy.
←

This is true.

It should also be noted that even within one specific wine there are differences. For eg there are different styles of Burgundy or Bordeaux or Rioja or Barolo.

I find that there is often some confusion in these threads. We confuse average consumers of wine with those that drink premium wines and even super premium wines.

What an average working class family drinks with dinner is likely to be a very basic, locally produced table wine--the equivalent of a jug wine. (in many cases it is actually a jug wine).

The vast majority of these wines are rarely exported, in fact, they are probably rarely drunk outside the areas where they are produced.

What is available to consumers in local wine shops anywhere in the world is impacted by laws which govern alcohol sales and consumption and laws which impact import and export markets.

Also geography and transportation is important. Until fairly recently, many wine shops in Europe offered mainly European produced wines (most likely the emphasis was on wines produced within each country). Also much of what Europe produces above and beyond basic table wines is exported. For eg.it is doubtful that the average Bordelaise was drinking much classed Bordeaux with his or her dinner. Those wines were probably being drunk by a member of the British upper class.

As markets open up and new wine drinkers emerge, consumers have more choices. greater influx of imports will impact the domestic wines and vice versa.

As an example, the emergence of the US as a wine drinking nation has impacted wine producing countries like Italy greatly--wine makers there have realized that if they clean up their wine making operations they can make money exporting their often very good distinctive and reasonably priced white wines to a nation of wine drinkers who are looking for alternatives to domestic produced chardonnay. In turn, US wine makers are improving the quality and diversity of their white wines. Competition is good for consumers.

As for the "matchy" issue; no doubt many people (mostly wine geeks) are going a bit overboard in their quest for perfection. I wonder also if foodies are becoming overly intellectual about food.

The quest to find the perfect flavors is driving the wine geeks nuts in their attempt to find the perfect wines for these perfect "bites."

I believe we are talking about a very few people relative to the overall dining population though.

Very few of us dine with any frequency at all, at places offering 1,500 bottle wine lists. What is interesting, and a good sign, I think, are the emergence of wine lists (pedestrian as they may be to us wine and food geeks here) at small inexpensive local restaurants and large chains like Fridays or Outback etc.

When a more populist restaurant like the local Legal Seafoods offers a wine list that actually approaches that found in a place like Le Bernardin for interest and diversity--if not breadth and scope, then that is truly a good sign!

hathor · January 3, 2007

I went to bed with visions of FatGuy, Pedro, Craig Camp and Docsconz and the rest of us, all dancing like putti on the head of a pin debating the merits of micro-pairing; when I had an inspiration.

A rare fillet mignon, blue bloody soft at the center radiating out until you reach the crusty, salty exterior. You serve only one wine…only its 6 bottles of the same wine, BUT each glass has been aerated for a different amount of time. The blue bloody part gets 2 sips of the freshly opened wine, radiating out to the overnight aged wine for the crusty exterior.

So, am I onto something or what??

I’m with Docsconz and Kounin: if you aren’t having fun with the concept, its not for you. Cin-cin! :laugh: :laugh:

P.S. There is no 'perfection', only perception. If you are chasing perfection, you might want to hire Sancho Panza as your sidekick.

Fat Guy · January 3, 2007

It should also be noted that even within one specific wine there are differences. For eg there are different styles of Burgundy or Bordeaux or Rioja or Barolo.
←

How about one company? If you made a wine list of only Louis Latour's wines, you'd have a significant wine list with quite a few matching opportunities and challenges. Louis Latour offers:

Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru « Les Chaillots »

Aloxe-Corton Vin du Bicentenaire

Aloxe-Corton « Domaine Latour »

Auxey-Duresses Blanc

Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru

Beaujolais-Lancié

Beaujolais-Villages

Beaujolais-Villages «Chameroy»

Beaune 1er Cru "Aux Cras"

Beaune 1er Cru "Cent Vignes"

Beaune 1er Cru "Grèves" rouge

Beaune 1er Cru 'Les Aigrots'

Beaune 1er Cru Blanc

Beaune 1er Cru Perrières

Beaune 1er Cru « Domaine Latour »

Beaune 1er Cru «Grèves» blanc

Beaune 1er Cru «Vignes Franches»

Beaune Blanc

Beaune Rouge

Bienvenues-Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru

Bonnes Mares Grand Cru

Bourgogne Aligoté

Bourgogne Blanc « Anniversaire »

Bourgogne Blanc « Cuvée Latour »

Bourgogne Passetoutgrain

Bourgogne Rouge « Anniversaire »

Bourgogne Rouge « Cuvée Latour »

Bouzeron

Brouilly « Les Saburins »

Chablis

Chablis 1er Cru

Chablis 1er Cru 'Beauroy'

Chablis 1er Cru « Fourchaume »

Chablis 1er Cru « Montmains »

Chablis Grand Cru 'Bougros'

Chablis Grand Cru « Blanchots »

Chablis Grand Cru « Vaudésir »

Chablis «La Chanfleure»

Chambertin 'Clos de Bèze' Grand Cru

Chambertin Grand Cru « Cuvée Héritiers Latour »

Chambolle Musigny 1er Cru "Les Charmes"

Chambolle-Musigny

Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru

Chardonnay d'Ardèche

Chardonnay « Bourgogne »

Charmes-Chambertin Grand Cru

Chassagne Montrachet 1er Cru "Morgeot" rouge

Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Les Caillerets'

Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru blanc

Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Chenevottes »

Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru « Morgeot » blanc

Chassagne-Montrachet blanc

Chassagne-Montrachet Rouge

Château Corton Grancey Grand Cru

Chénas

Chevalier-Montrachet Grand cru « Les Demoiselles »

Clos de la Roche Grand Cru

Clos Vougeot Grand Cru

Corton Grand Cru « Clos de la Vigne au Saint »

Corton Grand Cru « Domaine Latour »

Corton-Charlemagne Grand Cru

Côte de Beaune-Villages

Côte-de-Nuits Villages

Criots-Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru

Domaine de Valmoissine

Duet

Echézeaux Grand Cru

Fixin

Fleurie « Les Garans »

Gevrey-Chambertin

Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru

Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru « Cazetiers »

Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru "Les Corbeaux"

Givry Blanc

Givry Rouge

Grand Ardèche

Grands Echézeaux Grand Cru

Juliénas

Latricières-Chambertin « Grand Cru »

Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour Blanc

Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour rouge

Mâcon-Lugny

Mâcon-Lugny « Les Genièvres »

Mâcon-Villages

Mâcon-Villages « Chameroy »

Maranges

Maranges 1er Cru "La Fussière"

Marsannay

Marsannay Blanc

Mazis-Chambertin Grand Cru

Mercurey Blanc

Mercurey Rouge

Meursault 1er Cru « Goutte d’Or »

Meursault 1er Cru Blanc

Meursault 1er Cru Château de Blagny

Meursault 1er Cru « Charmes »

Meursault 1er Cru « Genevrières »

Meursault 1er Cru « Perrières »

Meursault 1er Cru « Poruzots »

Meursault Blanc

Meursault Rouge

Montagny

Montagny 1er Cru « La Grande Roche »

Monthélie

Monthélie "Clos des Toisières" blanc

Monthelie 'Clos des Toisières' rouge

Montrachet Grand Cru

Morey-Saint-Denis

Morey-Saint-Denis 1er Cru

Morgon « Les Charmes »

Morgon « Les Corcelettes »

Moulin-à-Vent « Les Michelons »

Nuits-Saint-Georges

Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru

Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Les Crots"

Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru « Clos des Argillières »

Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru « Ile des Vergelesses »

Pernand-Vergelesses Blanc

Pernand-Vergelesses Rouge

Pinot Noir

Pommard

Pommard 1er Cru« Les Epenots »

Pommard 1er Cru

Pommard 1er Cru 'Les Rugiens'

Pouilly-Fuissé

Pouilly-Vinzelles 'En Paradis'

Puligny-Montrachet

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Hameau de Blagny'

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Truffières »

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Sous le Puits »

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « La Garenne »

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Champgains »

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Folatières »

Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Referts »

Regnié « La Roche Thulon »

Romanée-Saint-Vivant Grand Cru ' Les Quatre Journaux '

Rully Blanc

Rully Rouge

Saint-Aubin

Saint-Romain

Saint-Véran

Saint-Véran « Les Deux Moulins »

Santenay 1er Cru "La Comme"

Santenay Blanc

Santenay Rouge

Santenay Rouge 1er Cru

Savigny-lès-Beaune 1er Cru

Savigny-lès-Beaune Blanc

Savigny-lès-Beaune Rouge

Volnay

Volnay 1er Cru 'Clos des Chênes'

Volnay 1er Cru 'En Chevret'

Volnay 1er Cru 'Les Mitans'

Volnay 1er Cru Rouge

Volnay 1er Cru « Santenots »

Vosne-Romanée

Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru

Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru « Beaumonts »

Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru « Les Suchots »

Craig Camp · January 3, 2007

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage.
When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American.
Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.
←
As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine.
←
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Obviously I love the regional foods and wines of Italy. What does this have to do with this argument? Please clarify.
←
It seemed to me that you were criticizing both the lack of variety in wines on sale in shops in Europe and the fact that certain European wines are largely exported, rather than drunk in other regions of Italy, for example. And my counterargument is that if you want to match a regional cuisine with a wine, the intuitive thing to do is to select a local wine, not one from outside the region or country. Does that clarify the context of this discussion I'm having with you?
←

I am certainly not criticizing them. Just relating the facts. Frankly, they seem quite satisfied with the situation. The point I was trying to make is that most of the top wines of the world are consumed outside their country of production and therefore out of the local cultural and culinary context of the people that made them.

As far as drinking regional when I'm in Barolo I drink Barolo, when I'm in Burgundy I drink Burgundy. However, here in Oregon where I make wine, I not only drink local wines, but wines from around the world. Portland has a fantastic selection of small producer wines from everywhere in the world. Bordeaux and Alba don't. This makes the wine choices easily available to me far more extensive and diverse than someone in Alba.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Craig Camp (log)

Craig Camp · January 3, 2007

It should also be noted that even within one specific wine there are differences. For eg there are different styles of Burgundy or Bordeaux or Rioja or Barolo.
←
How about one company? If you made a wine list of only Louis Latour's wines, you'd have a significant wine list with quite a few matching opportunities and challenges. Louis Latour offers:
Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru « Les Chaillots »
Aloxe-Corton Vin du Bicentenaire
Aloxe-Corton « Domaine Latour »
Auxey-Duresses Blanc
Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru
Beaujolais-Lancié
Beaujolais-Villages
Beaujolais-Villages «Chameroy»
Beaune 1er Cru "Aux Cras"
Beaune 1er Cru "Cent Vignes"
Beaune 1er Cru "Grèves" rouge
Beaune 1er Cru 'Les Aigrots'
Beaune 1er Cru Blanc
Beaune 1er Cru Perrières
Beaune 1er Cru « Domaine Latour »
Beaune 1er Cru «Grèves» blanc
Beaune 1er Cru «Vignes Franches»
Beaune Blanc
Beaune Rouge
Bienvenues-Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru
Bonnes Mares Grand Cru
Bourgogne Aligoté
Bourgogne Blanc « Anniversaire »
Bourgogne Blanc « Cuvée Latour »
Bourgogne Passetoutgrain
Bourgogne Rouge « Anniversaire »
Bourgogne Rouge « Cuvée Latour »
Bouzeron
Brouilly « Les Saburins »
Chablis
Chablis 1er Cru
Chablis 1er Cru 'Beauroy'
Chablis 1er Cru « Fourchaume »
Chablis 1er Cru « Montmains »
Chablis Grand Cru 'Bougros'
Chablis Grand Cru « Blanchots »
Chablis Grand Cru « Vaudésir »
Chablis «La Chanfleure»
Chambertin 'Clos de Bèze' Grand Cru
Chambertin Grand Cru « Cuvée Héritiers Latour »
Chambolle Musigny 1er Cru "Les Charmes"
Chambolle-Musigny
Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru
Chardonnay d'Ardèche
Chardonnay « Bourgogne »
Charmes-Chambertin Grand Cru
Chassagne Montrachet 1er Cru "Morgeot" rouge
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Les Caillerets'
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru blanc
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Chenevottes »
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru « Morgeot » blanc
Chassagne-Montrachet blanc
Chassagne-Montrachet Rouge
Château Corton Grancey Grand Cru
Chénas
Chevalier-Montrachet Grand cru « Les Demoiselles »
Clos de la Roche Grand Cru
Clos Vougeot Grand Cru
Corton Grand Cru « Clos de la Vigne au Saint »
Corton Grand Cru « Domaine Latour »
Corton-Charlemagne Grand Cru
Côte de Beaune-Villages
Côte-de-Nuits Villages
Criots-Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru
Domaine de Valmoissine
Duet
Echézeaux Grand Cru
Fixin
Fleurie « Les Garans »
Gevrey-Chambertin
Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru
Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru « Cazetiers »
Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru "Les Corbeaux"
Givry Blanc
Givry Rouge
Grand Ardèche
Grands Echézeaux Grand Cru
Juliénas
Latricières-Chambertin « Grand Cru »
Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour Blanc
Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour rouge
Mâcon-Lugny
Mâcon-Lugny « Les Genièvres »
Mâcon-Villages
Mâcon-Villages « Chameroy »
Maranges
Maranges 1er Cru "La Fussière"
Marsannay
Marsannay Blanc
Mazis-Chambertin Grand Cru
Mercurey Blanc
Mercurey Rouge
Meursault 1er Cru « Goutte d’Or »
Meursault 1er Cru Blanc
Meursault 1er Cru Château de Blagny
Meursault 1er Cru « Charmes »
Meursault 1er Cru « Genevrières »
Meursault 1er Cru « Perrières »
Meursault 1er Cru « Poruzots »
Meursault Blanc
Meursault Rouge
Montagny
Montagny 1er Cru « La Grande Roche »
Monthélie
Monthélie "Clos des Toisières" blanc
Monthelie 'Clos des Toisières' rouge
Montrachet Grand Cru
Morey-Saint-Denis
Morey-Saint-Denis 1er Cru
Morgon « Les Charmes »
Morgon « Les Corcelettes »
Moulin-à-Vent « Les Michelons »
Nuits-Saint-Georges
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Les Crots"
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru « Clos des Argillières »
Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru « Ile des Vergelesses »
Pernand-Vergelesses Blanc
Pernand-Vergelesses Rouge
Pinot Noir
Pommard
Pommard 1er Cru« Les Epenots »
Pommard 1er Cru
Pommard 1er Cru 'Les Rugiens'
Pouilly-Fuissé
Pouilly-Vinzelles 'En Paradis'
Puligny-Montrachet
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Hameau de Blagny'
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Truffières »
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Sous le Puits »
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « La Garenne »
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Champgains »
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Folatières »
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Referts »
Regnié « La Roche Thulon »
Romanée-Saint-Vivant Grand Cru ' Les Quatre Journaux '
Rully Blanc
Rully Rouge
Saint-Aubin
Saint-Romain
Saint-Véran
Saint-Véran « Les Deux Moulins »
Santenay 1er Cru "La Comme"
Santenay Blanc
Santenay Rouge
Santenay Rouge 1er Cru
Savigny-lès-Beaune 1er Cru
Savigny-lès-Beaune Blanc
Savigny-lès-Beaune Rouge
Volnay
Volnay 1er Cru 'Clos des Chênes'
Volnay 1er Cru 'En Chevret'
Volnay 1er Cru 'Les Mitans'
Volnay 1er Cru Rouge
Volnay 1er Cru « Santenots »
Vosne-Romanée
Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru
Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru « Beaumonts »
Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru « Les Suchots »
←

Count me in! When and where?

Edited January 3, 2007 by Craig Camp (log)

Craig Camp · January 3, 2007

I went to bed with visions of FatGuy, Pedro, Craig Camp and Docsconz and the rest of us, all dancing like putti on the head of a pin debating the merits of micro-pairing; when I had an inspiration.
A rare fillet mignon, blue bloody soft at the center radiating out until you reach the crusty, salty exterior. You serve only one wine…only its 6 bottles of the same wine, BUT each glass has been aerated for a different amount of time. The blue bloody part gets 2 sips of the freshly opened wine, radiating out to the overnight aged wine for the crusty exterior.
So, am I onto something or what??
I’m with Docsconz and Kounin: if you aren’t having fun with the concept, its not for you. Cin-cin!
P.S. There is no 'perfection', only perception. If you are chasing perfection, you might want to hire Sancho Panza as your sidekick.
←

Been there. Done that. :wink:

wkl · January 3, 2007

pan- craig's point that higher end wines are mostly exported is on the mark. that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of local wines left for the locals to drink with their meals. if you spend time with wine makers in piemonte, for example, the majority of them will reach for dolcetto and barbera many more times than their barolo or barbaresco. they gladly sell their barolo and keep a little for special occasions.

Pan · January 3, 2007

pan- craig's point that higher end wines are mostly exported is on the mark. that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of local wines left for the locals to drink with their meals. if you spend time with wine makers in piemonte, for example, the majority of them will reach for dolcetto and barbera many more times than their barolo or barbaresco. they gladly sell their barolo and keep a little for special occasions.
←

Don't most people who have expensive wines keep them for special occasions?

Edited January 3, 2007 by Pan (log)

JohnL · January 3, 2007

It seemed to me that you were criticizing both the lack of variety in wines on sale in shops in Europe and the fact that certain European wines are largely exported, rather than drunk in other regions of Italy, for example. And my counterargument is that if you want to match a regional cuisine with a wine, the intuitive thing to do is to select a local wine, not one from outside the region or country. Does that clarify the context of this discussion I'm having with you?

←

JohnL · January 3, 2007

pan- craig's point that higher end wines are mostly exported is on the mark. that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of local wines left for the locals to drink with their meals. if you spend time with wine makers in piemonte, for example, the majority of them will reach for dolcetto and barbera many more times than their barolo or barbaresco. they gladly sell their barolo and keep a little for special occasions.
←
Don't most people who have expensive wines keep them for special occasions?
←

wkl made a good point re Craig's point. (I guess both points are good).

We are talking about two different things here. First--defining "expensive."

The trade considers any wine in the roughly ten to twenty dollar a bottle range a "Premium" wine. Most of the wine produced in the world is below this. Most of the wine drunk in the world is basic ordinary everyday table wine that is rarely exported outside its country of origin.

This includes basic mass produced wines be they from Gallo or a French Cooperative or an Italian industrial producer.

Italy may be somewhat unique in that additionally, many Italians make their own wine for their and their family and friends use.

premium (and super premium wines) are drunk by people who can afford to buy them be it for a special occasion or everyday. These include a good ten dollar beaujolais or Macon white to a basic Kendal Jackson Chardonnay or an Italian Soave.

then there are:

Romanee Conti and Harlan estates, and Petrus and Beringer Private Reserve and Conterno Barolos, and Vega Sicilia and many others are world class wines that are bought by wealthy people around the world--this is a rarified market. There are many who drink these wines regularly and many who buy them a bottle or two at a time for special occasions. These wines are beyond super premium.

I think we have a somewhat skewed concept of the wine world as most at eGullet probably fall into a reasonably wealthy and knowledgeable food and wine centric audience.

Craig Camp · January 3, 2007

pan- craig's point that higher end wines are mostly exported is on the mark. that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of local wines left for the locals to drink with their meals. if you spend time with wine makers in piemonte, for example, the majority of them will reach for dolcetto and barbera many more times than their barolo or barbaresco. they gladly sell their barolo and keep a little for special occasions.
←
Don't most people who have expensive wines keep them for special occasions?
←

Yes, for example last night I had leftovers from New Years Eve. New Year's Eve is a special occasion, so as these leftovers were from a special occasion, dinner last night became another special occasion. Therefore I absolutely had to open a nice bottle of wine.

I seem to be able to find special occasions almost every day. However, on days I don't, I like to open a really special bottle as just opening such a bottle is a special occasion.

By the way, great bottles do not have to be expensive and often expensive bottles are not great.

JohnL · January 3, 2007

Part of what I think must drive the "micro-matching" in American restaurants is the prevalence of (genuine or would-be) oenophiles here at a certain price point. Although it may happen every so often, I don't think it's particularly common for Europeans to read the wine list first and then match the food with their choices. The only people I know who do that sort of thing are Americans. Quite to the contrary, most of the time in Italy, France, Spain, etc. wine is just something that is consumed with food. Yes, one cares about the quality of the wine and how it pairs with the food, but no more than one cares about the quality of the food and the food is driving (of course, many Europeans are far more invested and involved in their culinary culture than most Americans). The times I have enjoyed several different bottles of wine over the course of a European meal or outing, it has not been to make specific "this wine pairs so well with the hint of rosemary in the duck jus" kind of pairings, but rather just to enjoy a different and interesting bottle of wine.
Agree absolutely.
←

Wine geeks in America are no different than wine geeks anywhere.

If one's primary interest is in wine then one will often peruse the wine list first.

I know plenty of Europeans who do the same (anecdotal evidence is never really reliable).

If you are trying to make a case that wine with meals is a more established tradition in many European countries then ok--not suprising given that Europe has been producing wine for a lot longer.

wkl · January 3, 2007

i don't think we've gotten too match obssessed until we insist that latours nsg "les crots" goes better with roast chicken than the nsg "les argillieres". that in my opinion may be a little over the top.

also, i'm not sure latours making a bunch of different wines in differing "styles" so much as letting the vineyards they own speak for themselves. i could be wrong, but i doubt the vinification process is any different for the "les crots" as it is for the "argillieres". remember, these are tiny plots of land producing a relatively small amount of cases a year.

and, pan, i am more apt to open special stuff on special occasions but certainly not exclusively. quite often i'll drink whatever i am in the mood for on a random tuesday night, and if that happens to a bottle of barolo, than i'm popping the cork. :raz:

i was reacting to the fact that not much barolo (and probably brunello and 1 er cru burgundy too) stay in the country where they are produced. of the bottles of barolo that remain in piemonte alot are purchased by restaurants for sale to tourists. but lots of barbera, freisia, dolcetto, arneis remain for locals to match to their meals. no piemontese is seeking out chinon or beaujolais to go with dinner. the variety is just not there like it is in the usa.

otoh, i also don't think it's over the top to suggest two different wines with roasts that have different flavor profiles. (i also think it is perfectly okay to just have one bottle of whatever you like to drink and no one should make you feel uncomfortable with this either) to stick with the turkey example, if you, like i, prefer to serve white meat turkey as a differemt course from the dark meat, than two different wines are appropriate and fun.

slkinsey · January 3, 2007

I suppose part of the point I was making is that the percentage of wine geeks among regular wine drinkers in the United States is significantly higher than it is in Europe. I'd say that one degree or another of wine geekitude is higher than 50% among Americans who drink wine more than 5 times a week. I'd put this at less than 10% among their European counterparts. Even the wine geeks I know in Europe, while they may peruse the wine list with interest, are unlikely to say, "I think I'd like this bottle of wine tonight. Now let's see if I can construct a menu around it." A perfect example would be the lunch I had with fellow eGulletarians Eric_Malson and Pelayin at Casa Tataguyo in Aviles (Asturias, Spain). Pelayin is quite the wine enthusiast (we met him at his favorite wine bar in Gijon) and chose a very nice wine for our lunch. Nevertheless, we settled on the food first. and the wine second.

Craig Camp · January 3, 2007

until we insist that latours nsg "les crots" goes better with roast chicken than the nsg "les argillieres".

them's fightn' words. It's les Crots hands down.

LOS · January 3, 2007

The local wines of, say, France, are about as diverse as can be. You maybe get a small increment of diversity if you add in the wines of the whole world, but the wines of any single major wine nation are incredibly diverse, as can be the wines of many single regions. I mean, Spain produces everything from sherry to cava to Vega Sicilia; in France you can have a Banyuls, a Bordeaux or a Beaujolais and those are just reds; they make everything in these places. So it doesn't seem to me that there's appreciably less variety or complexity to an all French or all Spanish wine list than to an international one. With a few notable exceptions, the world's top wine restaurants tend to max out at 1,500 or so wine choices. For purposes of establishing breadth, depth, complexity or required knowledge it makes little difference if they're all from Spain or if there are 500 each from Spain, France and Italy.
←

But this is irrelevant. A European considers his native wines to be those of his region, not those of his country.

EDITED to add: And that's how food/wine matches are done in Europe -- by region of origin, not by nation of origin.

Edited January 3, 2007 by LOS (log)

docsconz · January 3, 2007

This topic has veered a bit from the question at hand. I don't think too many wine pairing flights are necessarily looking or claiming to be the absolute best match possible for a given dish. First of all, there are too many subjective elements for that to even be possible. Rather, the concept that I have experienced and how I view it is here are some fun and interesting wines that happen to go well with the particular courses for which they have been chosen - enjoy! And enjoy I do, especially if some thought has been put into the selections by the sommalier. I frequently get to try worthy wines that are off the beaten track and off my personal radar.

Judith, though I personally haven't tried it, your tasting with the steak sounds like a fun exercise to me. :laugh:

My bottom line is that if it is not fun don't do it. If it is and it is within one's means, go wild!

JohnL · January 3, 2007

This topic has veered a bit from the question at hand. I don't think too many wine pairing flights are necessarily looking or claiming to be the absolute best match possible for a given dish. First of all, there are too many subjective elements for that to even be possible. Rather, the concept that I have experienced and how I view it is here are some fun and interesting wines that happen to go well with the particular courses for which they have been chosen - enjoy! And enjoy I do, especially if some thought has been put into the selections by the sommalier. I frequently get to try worthy wines that are off the beaten track and off my personal radar.
Judith, though I personally haven't tried it, your tasting with the steak sounds like a fun exercise to me.
My bottom line is that if it is not fun don't do it. If it is and it is within one's means, go wild!
←

Dining at a restaurant should be fun--of course.

I do agree with FG that often wine geeks go a bit overboard in trying to intellectualize what is in essence a very hedonistic endeavor.

I also agree that the sommelier who pairs up multiple courses with wines should be creating a fun and informative experience introducing diners to wines and wine experiences they may not normally have if left to their own in selecting the wines.

As I noted earlier I thought that March was one of the better restaurants at this due to the brilliance of Joe Scalice. There are simply not enough truly talented sommeliers out there.

Otherwise ordering a bottle of a really nice white and a fine red should suffice for most meals of one to twenty or more courses!

docsconz · January 3, 2007

This topic has veered a bit from the question at hand. I don't think too many wine pairing flights are necessarily looking or claiming to be the absolute best match possible for a given dish. First of all, there are too many subjective elements for that to even be possible. Rather, the concept that I have experienced and how I view it is here are some fun and interesting wines that happen to go well with the particular courses for which they have been chosen - enjoy! And enjoy I do, especially if some thought has been put into the selections by the sommalier. I frequently get to try worthy wines that are off the beaten track and off my personal radar.
Judith, though I personally haven't tried it, your tasting with the steak sounds like a fun exercise to me.
My bottom line is that if it is not fun don't do it. If it is and it is within one's means, go wild!
←
Dining at a restaurant should be fun--of course.
I do agree with FG that often wine geeks go a bit overboard in trying to intellectualize what is in essence a very hedonistic endeavor.
I also agree that the sommelier who pairs up multiple courses with wines should be creating a fun and informative experience introducing diners to wines and wine experiences they may not normally have if left to their own in selecting the wines.
As I noted earlier I thought that March was one of the better restaurants at this due to the brilliance of Joe Scalice. There are simply not enough truly talented sommeliers out there.
Otherwise ordering a bottle of a really nice white and a fine red should suffice for most meals of one to twenty or more courses!
←

John, I agree with what you have written here. Clearly there is room for both practices. I partake of each at what I consider appropriate times and venues. So long as Alinea offers the wine service and pairings that they do, I will always choose that option when dining there.

One thing that hasn't been discussed here is the influence and preferences of other diners in a party. I will only order a wine pairing if my enthusiasm is shared by everyone else at the table. In addition, sometimes economic factors come into play that must be respected. In those instances I have no problem with choosing and drinking wine by the bottle.

Sign In

Have we become too "matchy"?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Similar Content

Recently Browsing 0 members