France - "Smoke and Mirrors?"

[John Talbott]

i think dave h was referring to john talbot, and his request to stay on topic.

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Yes, me, and I thank everyone for staying on topic.

[Dave Hatfield]

i think dave h was referring to john talbot, and his request to stay on topic.

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I was.

Won't get into the wine controversy other than to say that in France as elsewhere you need to seek to find. Whether that be direct from the producer or from a trusted shop.

As to food; I've had fewer bad meals in France than in any other country. That doesn't say zero. In fact we had an awful meal in Le Vigan just this summer at a place where we least expected it.

And, yes, retired living in France is a dream.

Edited to add this PS.

PS: Can't resist a little tweak. Last week I was wandering the Hyper Market wine secion while my wife & her friend looked at women's things. Spotted a bottle of Corbiers. A favorite & besides my wife's going down there next week on a photography course. So I bought a bottle.

Next day my friend Rob was over butchering some whole pork loins for me. So I opened this wine & gave both he & Linda a glass. Yummy they said this is drinkable. Rod said "what is it"; Linda said " It's a corbiers, but not one we normally have."

Where, but in France could I have stumbled onto a palatable wine for $1.00 a bottle? ( 83 centimes to be exact.) Seek & yee shall find.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Dave Hatfield (log)

[John Talbott]

Won't get into the wine controversy other than to say that in France as elsewhere you need to seek to find.

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A story I love to tell relates to the delinkage of price and quality. Colette and I were dining several years ago at the Elysees Vernet where the wines were largely priced at the top of my price/horror ratio. Finally I found what my eGullet colleague Paga calls the "Waldo wine" and ordered it somewhat sheepishly, noting that it was the wine with the "most interesting" price on the carte. The sommelier said quickly, you've found my favorite, there is nothing on this carte that I don't like or wouldn't recommend. And it was super.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

....The sommelier said...there is nothing on this carte that I don't like or wouldn't recommend....

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It has long been my contention that there shouldn't BE a wine on any restaurant's list that doesn't have some particular merit or interest

[paul o' vendange]

....The sommelier said...there is nothing on this carte that I don't like or wouldn't recommend....

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It has long been my contention that there shouldn't BE a wine on any restaurant's list that doesn't have some particular merit or interest

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Fully agree. At the end of the day - no matter the price point - every bottle, every food offering, should be valuable: price paid was worth it, given the experience.

[Felice]

....The sommelier said...there is nothing on this carte that I don't like or wouldn't recommend....

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It has long been my contention that there shouldn't BE a wine on any restaurant's list that doesn't have some particular merit or interest

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Fully agree. At the end of the day - no matter the price point - every bottle, every food offering, should be valuable: price paid was worth it, given the experience.

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Just wanted to say I agree as well and this is the reason that I only buy from wine shops where I trust their opinion. There is a shop that I go to quite frequently and I know that even if I buy his least expensive wine it will be good because the owner has handpicked and tasted every bottle. He just doesn't sell something he considers to be poorly made, so even his 3€ bottle of wine is an acceptable every day drinking wine.

[SWISS_CHEF]

I have another trick for finding good wine... When in the vineyards I look for very very old vines and if possible I knock on the door of the closest winery and start asking questions. This technique has paid some wonderful dividends for my little wine company.

[John Talbott]

Just wanted to say I agree as well and this is the reason that I only buy from wine shops where I trust their opinion. There is a shop that I go to quite frequently and I know that even if I buy his least expensive wine it will be good because the owner has handpicked and tasted every bottle. He just doesn't sell something he considers to be poorly made, so even his 3€ bottle of wine is an acceptable every day drinking wine.

So true. Le Zouave turned me onto a place nearby that is exactly like that; they know every bottle. It's a pleasure. At whatever price, and it's usually very reasonable.

Let me change the subject and expose myself to derision: When we first bought our apartment we went to a tasting at an entrepot on the Petite Ceinture; they had a Beaujolais we liked available by the bottle, case and horrors - box. The technology was imperfect then but the taste was superb and longevity was a revelation. Visiting two friends (one in Geneva, the other in Provence) shortly thereafter I discovered they too had box wines that were not bad at all.

So when my friend Paga served me a wine a year or so ago from a toney wine shop over by the Montparnasse cemetery I schlepped back a box - again, very good. Now of course, my local guy carries them, running anywhere from 20-50 €/3-5 liters and for someone like me, who eats alone a lot, and leaves town a lot, it's a perfect fit. I've had spoilage once and my guy took one sniff and no questions asked, replaced it with alacrity.

[Dave Hatfield]

Ah! Boxes. I'll open up for some derision as well.

In many of the small wineries around here you can buy exactly the same wine in a bottle, in a box or in your own bidon. All that varies is the price. I once recently embarassed my wife by buying a box of St Emillion in St Emillion.

If you think about it, at the low prices many of these wineries charge the cost of packaging become signifigent. 6 bottles , 6 corks & 6 seals are a lot more expensive than a 5 liter box. In fact at one local winery the price for their everyday red is X Euros per litre. You buy the box (5,10 or 20 litres) separately. A bottle of the same stuff is more expensive.

Boxes are not to be recommended for 'serious' wine, stuff for laying down and so forth, but for everyday table wines they're great. As John says the wine keeps & tastes fine.

I only ask that you don't knock it until you've tried it.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

John and Dave, are you seriously suggesting that we all "come out" of our boxes? Okay, if we must. I adore the convenience of box wines for cooking and also for the off-hand single glass. Like you, we come and go a lot, and it's lovely to walk out of the house and know that the wine you leave will be viable when you return.

[Dave Hatfield]

Who else is brave enought to "come out"? If John & Margaret can do it so can you.

I'm tempted to post over on the wine forum & get the 'serious' winos in a tizzy, but won't.

[Busboy]

Hmmm...I bought an extremely odious box of rose in Uzes this summer. Even by the standards of the inexpensive plonk we'd been drinking, it was pretty undrinkable. Of course, it was practically cheaper than bottled water, so we weren't too surprised.

Still open-minded on the subject, though.

[John Talbott]

Hmmm...I bought an extremely odious box of rose in Uzes this summer. 

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Ok, true confession time: I did get a huuuuuge bidon of red plonk (Bordeaux) at the ferry town of Fromentine en route to the Ile de Yeu this summer that bordered on the undrinkable, but the wife, daughters and sons-in-law never complained. But hey, it lasted forever.

[bleudauvergne]

Sure, we buy boxed wine from time to time. Doesn't everyone? We tasted something really nice at the wine fair this year too.

[Felice]

While wandering through the eG wine forums I found this thread that discusses Burgundy

Need advice on French Burgundy

[paul o' vendange]

While wandering through the eG wine forums I found this thread that discusses Burgundy

Need advice on French Burgundy

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Fantastic, thank you, Felice.

I'm afraid I am wandering through the prickly fields of melancholic nostalgia. Some things from my former French bistro (as French as I know it, from a seed planted 35 years ago - M. Pepin, merci):

A starter, a finisher: Onion tart, petit mache salad; chocolate rum torte, caramel sauce:

Seared Ahi, with roast garlic jus, shoestring potatoes:

Lamb shank - as I served it in the restaurant, braised, with confits of garlic and tomato, thyme oil, an integral sauce made from lamb, and great northern bean-gratin:

A trio of quails: stuffed, with dried fall fruits, armagnac-quail jus, braised kale:

Finally, an interior of our place:

And part of the team of professionals we valued highest of all:

-Paul

Edited November 11, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[bleudauvergne]

That is a beautiful meal.

Paul, you have got to come over here. You can stay with us.

[paul o' vendange]

That is a beautiful meal. 

Paul, you have got to come over here.  You can stay with us.

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Lucy, thank you so very much. Your beautiful pictures and foodblog Lyonnaise of a few years ago sustained me even while mounting Waterstone, and I would love to visit when we get there. I am very appreciative, and will keep you posted.

Best,

Paul

Edited November 11, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

I can only echo Lucy's comments. Your food looked faboulus.

I was particularly struck by the braised lamb shanks having just posted a recipe for them in the cooking forum. Yours put mine to shame. I'll definitly steal some of your technique if I may.

After you've visited Lyon you might want to head West. we've plenty of space.

[paul o' vendange]

I can only echo Lucy's comments. Your food looked faboulus.

I was particularly struck by the braised lamb shanks having just posted a recipe for them in the cooking forum. Yours put mine to shame. I'll definitly steal some of your technique if I may.

After you've visited Lyon you might want to head West. we've plenty of space.

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Well, good morning Dave, and thank you for your kindness! However, I just read your recipe and it looks fantastic. I am certain your shanks are equal to mine...I wish I could claim something special; but as with all my food, I claim nothing but a keen desire to master simplicity.

The shanks themselves are salted and peppered for several hours, seared well, set on a bed of very lightly caramelized mirepoix, and moistened with chicken stock, and a far lesser portion of lamb stock (too much, and I find the final jus well, too much, given the remouillage below). Good amounts of romas nestled amongst the shanks, thyme. 275F for several hours, then pulled and laid out; jus clarified, then split into two - one part, used as a remouillage for lamb neck bones, more romas, more thyme, some garlic, to a resulting sauce; the other portion, at service, used to glaze the shank in a hot oven.

Between you, Lucy, Felice, and others, I am very warmed by your reception and grateful for your graciousness. Your work on this and your related sites is nothing short of inspirational. Thank you. I would love to pay a visit.

Edited November 11, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)