Help Me Define the "South"

[NYC Mike]

All of that being said I would suggest that "the South" and b/c this is on e-Gullet I am going to assume we are talking Southern food as opposed to other "Southernisms"--and this is fr/ a Southern boys' perspective--is any area that employed slaves (not necessarily for cotton but also rice, indigo, &c) and therefore found much of its food influenced by not only what was available but also fr/ an African (read slave) style of cooking and such influence lasts to this day in its regional dishes is "Southern".

Lan4dawg, this goes a long way in confirming the way Andrea and I were originally looking at the geography. We originally steered clear of it because we thought it only provided definition for "soul food" and didn't include Cajun or Creole for example. On closer inspection of Louisiana (using that same example) it does in fact match, the food is somewhat different because the origin of the slaves and conditions that they lived in were different.

So then, does the war between the states have little to do with our answer except as a point of reference? I mean, was the culinary culture in place long before the war?

As for my original post---"rat trap cheese" can be found any where in the US and is more than likely fr/ Wisconsin (at least now). Any type of strong hoop cheddar was called "rat trap" b/c it was smelly enough to attract rats to the traps. I have no idea if this is specifically Southern but that was how we referred to any strong hoop cheese when I was young as that is what the Rev called it.

That is very funny. Boy, you got me one good! If I had a nickel for how many minutes I searched Google to find a recipe for IT. I think I just went snipe hunting.

Now that begs the question: is the food "Southern" or is it the terminology?

but could there be a agreed upon spirit to what defines Southern food?

From a fresh off the bus Yankee perspective I would say the food is most absolutly "Southern". In my very limited experience the preparations, techniques and flavor combinations are amazingly unique. The ingredients are based on what is local, fresh and seasonally available in the region. Additionally, the recipes we have tried all require something of the cook in the way of commitment and attention unlike many other food we have cooked. You must want to do it, want to love to do it, fall asleep at the wheel at your own (and your dinner's) peril. Perhaps dramatic but I think correct nonetheless.

Menon, your quote is the final peice of what we find wonderful about the food, there is a feel good quality about cooking, eating and sharing it. My wife cut a few hunks off our last apple cake and shared it with a couple of houses near us and now we have this weekly plate exchange going and new friends. In NYC a good next door neighbor is one who keeps to himself and keeps his music down.

Unfortunatly for the eductional part for us it was hard to put a fence around that feeling.

-Mike

[annecros]

Snip

Parts that should not be included would be the lower portion of Florida (not even settled yet),

Snip

←

A little South Florida history here:

http://www.historical-museum.org/history/southfla.htm

From the site:

"The first permanent white settlers in the Miami area arrived in the early 1800s. During the decades that followed, a wide variety of individuals left their mark on the history of this area. In the 1830s, statesman Richard Fitzpatrick from South Carolina operated, with slave labor, a successful plantation on the Miami River. He cultivated sugar cane, bananas, corn and tropical fruit. Major William S. Harney, in command at Ft. Dallas which was located on Fitzpatrick’s Planatation on the north bank of the Miami River, led several raids against the Indians during the Second Seminole War (1835-1842).

George Ferguson made $24,000 in 1850 by selling the comptie starch he manufactured in his mill farther up river. Carpetbagger William Gleason dominated Dade County politics during the Reconstruction Era. A few years later, Kirk Munroe, well known writer of books for boys, built a home in Coconut Grove. Many of the other settlers were homesteaders, attracted to the area by offers of 160 acres of free land by the federal government. And nearly everyone took an interest in the wrecking industry--the salvaging of cargo from ships wrecked on the Florida reefs. Those pioneer days, when the mail came once a week, travel was primarily by sailboat, children attended one-room schoolhouses, and the trading post was the lone store, ended with the arrival of Flagler’s Florida East Coast Railway. Soon there were doctors and lawyers, shoe stores and hardware stores, electric lights and telephones."

Slave labor, Carpetbaggers...

How Southern can you get?

I still contend that the Native American influence on Southern cuisine is vastly under appreciated. Everyone is well aware of the history of the "Trail of Tears" but few appreciate the signifant percentage of the Creek population that assimilated into society, though with some prejudice. Particulary in Georgia, which was a penal colony, and the Carolinas, men outnumbered women and two ancestors of mine married young Creek women out of an "orphanage" in the Carolinas where some of the poorer Native American families would place thier daughers.

The Native Americans in South Flordia were the Tequesta. The "Seminoles" were not a single tribe of Native Americans and were not indigenous to the area, but migrated while fleeing persecution further north.

http://www.flheritage.com/facts/history/seminole/

From the site:

"Seminole history begins with bands of Creek Indians from Georgia and Alabama who migrated to Florida in the 1700s. Conflicts with Europeans and other tribes caused them to seek new lands to live in peace.

Groups of Lower Creeks moved to Florida to get away from the dominance of Upper Creeks. Some Creeks were searching for rich, new fields to plant corn, beans and other crops. For a while, Spain even encouraged these migrations to help provide a buffer between Florida and the British colonies.

The 1770s is when Florida Indians collectively became known as Seminole, a name meaning "wild people" or "runaway."

In addition to Creeks, Seminoles included Yuchis, Yamasses and a few aboriginal remnants. The population also increased with runaway slaves who found refuge among the Indians. "

The Creek were very settled and agrarian. Tending crops and keeping livestock when European settlers arrived in the new world.

I still point to the Corn Culture as a strong influence on Southern food and behaviour, though the African American influence is vivid in the okra, peas and melons we love - and most probably a huge influence on the preparation of wild game, along with the Native Americans who were familiar with the indigenous wild life. I would still expect a European to be the most skilled in methods of preparing leafy greens. Sausage? I would look to Europe as well.

Deep frying in fat? Well, I would guess that developed as a means to an end...

Anne

Edit to add:

A bit more on the Creek Indians here:

http://ourgeorgiahistory.com/indians/Creek/creek01.html

Edited October 31, 2006 by annecros (log)

[racheld]

Wow!! This topic is spreading and growing like water lilies in a still pond. I wanna get into the discussion, but have dinner guests coming, and still have to get the TOT baskets arranged.

More later, if you're all still standing.

[ludja]

I'm sure the demographics are shifting all the time, but in "The Florida Cookbook", by Jeanne Voltz and Caroline Stuart they make the geographical distinctions in Florida as: Panhandle, Northeast, Central interior, Southern Interior/Great Lake, West coast and east coast (starting about a third down.

When you look at the recipes grouped in each section, the most traditional "southern" foods (or rather, those that are seen in other states also) are in the Panhandle, the Northeast and all of the Central corridor, i.e. excluding most of the eastern and western coasts. That is, it not simply a north/south thing but also an interior/coastal distinction. This seems reasonable as food and cultural changes from new residents from outside the South would seem to have occurred at an accelerated rate on the coasts. Does this seem to ring true to Floridians?

Edited October 31, 2006 by ludja (log)

[annecros]

One more brief post, to keep things on topic, then I promise to shut up!

Typical Creek Indian diet:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cmamcrk4/crk4.html

"The Creek Indians raised maize or corn in the fields outside the walls to their villages. The ears were roasted over fires, then the corn was dried and the kernels pounded into meal for corn bread, ghost bread, or hard bread plus there was parched corn for travel. A soup was also prepared from corn; it was called sofkee and bits of venison might be added to it if available. The sofkee pot was kept bubbling over the fire and family members ate when they wished. They also raised squash, beans, sweet potatoes, pumpkins, sunflowers for seeds. Fish, game and fresh water mussels provided an excellent source of protein for their diets. Berries were found growing wild in fields and forests -- blackberries, mulberries and strawberries. The roots of the lovely smilax vine was also harvested, as was the kunti --both were good starchy vegetables. Honey could be gathered from beehives in the forests.

In the 18th century, because of the contact with traders, the Creeks began to cultivate fruit trees and so had access to many fruits -- apples, pears, orange, pears. It is written that Alexander McGillivray had apple trees at Hickory Ground. They also added peas and carrots to their crops. Poultry and hogs were showing up in barnyards and gave greater variety to diet. They acquired nets and traps for better hunting and fishing. Sugar, rice, and wheat flour began to appear in the villages."

For the record, "sofkee" is hominy. Alexander McGillivray was a Creek Chief, and if you have some spare time, googling Mary Musgrove (an Indian Pricess) is very interesting.

Here is the recipe for Sofkee, Sofky, Osafki:

"Sofky (correct form "osafki" -- Hominy): Shell good, clean and dried flint corn fromt the cob, enough to have a peck or more of the shelled grain to prepare sofky for several meals. Cover the shelled corn with cool water, and soak over night. Pound the soaked corn, or a portion, lightly in a wooden mortar enough to break the grains in half. Place the pounded corn in a fanner, and clean out the hulls. Put the clean, broken grain into a large vessel, cover with water and boil until thoroughly done. Add water if necessary from time to time to keep the hominy in a loose fluid. When it is cooked thoroughly, add ash-lye solution in the proportion of a cupful to a gallon of the boiling hominy, stirring it regularly for it will scorch easily. Boil the hominy with the ash-lye solution for at least another half house, then pour it into a stone jar to keep and serve. The Creek informant for this method of making sofky added an old saying: "As long as the Indian can eat and drink osafki, he will not go dead." Based on a manuscript of penciled notes written by Charles Gibson (Creek) of Eufaula in 1918 sent to Dr. Joseph B. Thoborn."

Edited October 31, 2006 by annecros (log)

[Pontormo]

One thing I don't see mentioned here is Indiana.

I know, I know, it's the midwest, the Heartland here at eG.

However, when I was in high school and moved from New England to Southern Indiana, on our first day, there was a maintenance man finishing up a few things in our place whose accent was one of the thickest drawls I ever heard.

Hoosiers made fun of Kentucky all the time, in a way that lets you know there is a close identification with the South. In a charming, touristy spot out in the woods called Nashville, fried chicken is the specialty and the Bean Blossom Festival? Hons, that there pickin' is Southern.

Of course, the growing popularity of "country music", whether traditional bluegrass or mainstream pop is one of the forces that pokes holes in the boundaries that separate the South from the rest of the nation.

(Knowing something about the underbelly of Indiana's history, especially in the early 20th century also makes the case for its inclusion.)

Edited October 31, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[menon1971]

All of that being said I would suggest that "the South" and b/c this is on e-Gullet I am going to assume we are talking Southern food as opposed to other "Southernisms"--and this is fr/ a Southern boys' perspective--is any area that employed slaves (not necessarily for cotton but also rice, indigo, &c) and therefore found much of its food influenced by not only what was available but also fr/ an African (read slave) style of cooking and such influence lasts to this day in its regional dishes is "Southern".

Lan4dawg, this goes a long way in confirming the way Andrea and I were originally looking at the geography. We originally steered clear of it because we thought it only provided definition for "soul food" and didn't include Cajun or Creole for example. On closer inspection of Louisiana (using that same example) it does in fact match, the food is somewhat different because the origin of the slaves and conditions that they lived in were different.

So then, does the war between the states have little to do with our answer except as a point of reference? I mean, was the culinary culture in place long before the war?

As for my original post---"rat trap cheese" can be found any where in the US and is more than likely fr/ Wisconsin (at least now). Any type of strong hoop cheddar was called "rat trap" b/c it was smelly enough to attract rats to the traps. I have no idea if this is specifically Southern but that was how we referred to any strong hoop cheese when I was young as that is what the Rev called it.

That is very funny. Boy, you got me one good! If I had a nickel for how many minutes I searched Google to find a recipe for IT. I think I just went snipe hunting.

Now that begs the question: is the food "Southern" or is it the terminology?

but could there be a agreed upon spirit to what defines Southern food?

From a fresh off the bus Yankee perspective I would say the food is most absolutly "Southern". In my very limited experience the preparations, techniques and flavor combinations are amazingly unique. The ingredients are based on what is local, fresh and seasonally available in the region. Additionally, the recipes we have tried all require something of the cook in the way of commitment and attention unlike many other food we have cooked. You must want to do it, want to love to do it, fall asleep at the wheel at your own (and your dinner's) peril. Perhaps dramatic but I think correct nonetheless.

Menon, your quote is the final peice of what we find wonderful about the food, there is a feel good quality about cooking, eating and sharing it. My wife cut a few hunks off our last apple cake and shared it with a couple of houses near us and now we have this weekly plate exchange going and new friends. In NYC a good next door neighbor is one who keeps to himself and keeps his music down.

Unfortunatly for the eductional part for us it was hard to put a fence around that feeling.

-Mike

←

I have lived in VA (piedmont and tidewater), DC, NC (piedmont), and now make my home in AL (central -- above the black belt) and I think that might be the right interpretation. Southern food has a kind of terrôir context to it, reflecting cultures of scarcity which affected and still affects both communal attitudes about food and the efficiency of using ingredients.

Native populations also influenced the colonist in terms of BBQ and smoking as cooking techniques.

[bbqboy]

If you drew a list of Border Cities:

Galveston/Houston

Texarkana

Tulsa

Kansas City

St Louis

Louisville

Cincinatti

Charleston, W. Va.

Baltimore/DC

As said before, It seems you gotta' have Corn, Pork, Greens, and Tomatoes to be Part of the South.

This line roughly follows that.

Edited October 31, 2006 by bbqboy (log)

[judiu]

Mike: 

Washington, D.C. is Southern even if it's filled with Yanks and midwesterners and Ethiopians, Peruvians and Salvadorans.  Built on a swamp.  Ribs.  Buttermilk in pints as well as quarts and pig's feet at Safeway and Giant, even if these two supermarkets aint no Piggly Wiggly.

←

I lived in D.C. and agree that it is in may ways the Northern most Southern city, but where are there good ribs and who is eating the pig's feet?

←

Go out to where "the Help" lives and you'll find it all.

[menon1971]

Mike: 

Washington, D.C. is Southern even if it's filled with Yanks and midwesterners and Ethiopians, Peruvians and Salvadorans.  Built on a swamp.  Ribs.  Buttermilk in pints as well as quarts and pig's feet at Safeway and Giant, even if these two supermarkets aint no Piggly Wiggly.

←

I lived in D.C. and agree that it is in may ways the Northern most Southern city, but where are there good ribs and who is eating the pig's feet?

←

Go out to where "the Help" lives and you'll find it all.

←

I am afraid that "the help" lives in rather than out. I looked for good ribs there and was unable to find them (except for at one hertitage fair downtown).

[shellfishfiend]

Part of the controversy (if I can call it that) of including some of these areas is that what many people think of as a "Southern Tradition" are really the same survival tools that other parts of the country used. Smoking, canning, and salting are done across the country, the difference being the ingredients used. Everyone braises big tough hunks of meat, everyone stretches the garden as far as it can possibly go, and everyone expects good behavior at the dinner (or supper) table. This can actually be expanded to a worldwide issue. Some things, like food, are universal. The traditions are similar wherever you go. What they do with fish in one part of the world is the same thing they do to pork in others.

I really do think (having lived in Dallas and Austin) that Texas, at least parts of it, should be included. The climate of east Texas is far different than west Texas. The only thing universal in Texas is a Mexican influence and the two letters before the zip code in thier address.

Edited to add: Alternatively,  you can simply take the areas that think that the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country.

Now, if you want to define the "Deep South", then you only include states which had plantations and grits. You must have both, and no more than 50% of your border can be coastline. That's Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and the Carolinas.

←

What do you mean areas that "think the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country"?

We don't think it, we know it!!!!

[Lan4Dawg]

Part of the controversy (if I can call it that) of including some of these areas is that what many people think of as a "Southern Tradition" are really the same survival tools that other parts of the country used. Smoking, canning, and salting are done across the country, the difference being the ingredients used. Everyone braises big tough hunks of meat, everyone stretches the garden as far as it can possibly go, and everyone expects good behavior at the dinner (or supper) table. This can actually be expanded to a worldwide issue. Some things, like food, are universal. The traditions are similar wherever you go. What they do with fish in one part of the world is the same thing they do to pork in others.

I really do think (having lived in Dallas and Austin) that Texas, at least parts of it, should be included. The climate of east Texas is far different than west Texas. The only thing universal in Texas is a Mexican influence and the two letters before the zip code in thier address.

Edited to add: Alternatively,  you can simply take the areas that think that the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country.

Now, if you want to define the "Deep South", then you only include states which had plantations and grits. You must have both, and no more than 50% of your border can be coastline. That's Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and the Carolinas.

←

What do you mean areas that "think the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country"?

We don't think it, we know it!!!!

←

and the crowd said, "AMEN!"

or Hunker Down or Go Dawgs!, Sic 'em, woof woof woof! or Roll Tide or what ever....

HDHD

[FistFullaRoux]

Alternatively,  you can simply take the areas that think that the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country.

←

What do you mean areas that "think the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country"?

We don't think it, we know it!!!!

←

I do know it. Geaux LSU!!! (and a little "roll tide." for the wife's sake)

I tend to spend a lot of time in Tuscaloosa, what can I say.

Edited October 31, 2006 by FistFullaRoux (log)

[Carrot Top]

Apparently even the anthropologists are interested in further defining this.

February 15-19, 2007

Southern Cuisines and Southern Foodways. The Southern Anthropological Society Annual Meeting, University of Mississippi, Oxford, MS.

The theme reflects an essential element of what Southerners identify as being Southern, their food and use of food in hospitality. The four-fields of anthropology encourage participation inviting multiple perspectives of food, food preparation, procurement, and process. Paper and panel abstract forms will be available on the www.southernanthro.org website.

From Food History News (fascinating site!)

[annecros]

Apparently even the anthropologists are interested in further defining this.

February 15-19, 2007

Southern Cuisines and Southern Foodways. The Southern Anthropological Society Annual Meeting, University of Mississippi, Oxford, MS.

The theme reflects an essential element of what Southerners identify as being Southern, their food and use of food in hospitality. The four-fields of anthropology encourage participation inviting multiple perspectives of food, food preparation, procurement, and process. Paper and panel abstract forms will be available on the www.southernanthro.org website.

From Food History News (fascinating site!)

←

Wow Carrot Top, thank you so much for the link, and the SAS site is dynamite.

My daughter is a double major in anthropology and english, and I am sure she will find the SAS site helpful.

Anne

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article on Southern Cuisine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_th...n_United_States

The articles list Soul food, Creole, Cajun, Lowcountry, and Floribbean as subcuisines, with several links out. The Southern Foodways Alliance is listed as a source.

I was pleased to see the Floribbean food included. A large part of the population in South Florida is from the Islands, and the food has many southern characteristics.

Edited November 1, 2006 by annecros (log)

[007bond-jb]

Here's a test if it will post & a simple question (if your a southerner you know the answer without google) What are grillades & what is it servered with?

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencer...dixie_quiz.html

& here's some tips for Yankees

http://www.countryhumor.com/humor/tipsforyankees.htm

Edited November 1, 2006 by 007bond-jb (log)

[shellfishfiend]

Grillades are wonderful, thin cuts of beef or pork (I've seen both) pan fried and then stewed in a delightful mix of roux, stock and tomatoes and served with grits (no other starch is acceptable).

[Carrot Top]

Grunts are too.

[FistFullaRoux]

Here's a test if it will post & a simple question (if your a southerner you know the answer without google) What are grillades & what is it servered with?

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencer...dixie_quiz.html

& here's some tips for Yankees

http://www.countryhumor.com/humor/tipsforyankees.htm

←

Interesting find, but... somethings amiss with that first one.

I mean, my God, I've never been north of Hot Springs. And I'm expanding that a little farther into the frozen north next week when I go to Nashville. I only scored a 58% southern rating. You certainly can't go by that thing.

[judiu]

Here's a test if it will post & a simple question (if your a southerner you know the answer without google) What are grillades & what is it servered with?

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencer...dixie_quiz.html

& here's some tips for Yankees

http://www.countryhumor.com/humor/tipsforyankees.htm

←

Interesting find, but... somethings amiss with that first one.

I mean, my God, I've never been north of Hot Springs. And I'm expanding that a little farther into the frozen north next week when I go to Nashville. I only scored a 58% southern rating. You certainly can't go by that thing.

←

Amen! Y'all is NOT singular! Two or more is y'all; one is just you.

[annecros]

Here's a test if it will post & a simple question (if your a southerner you know the answer without google) What are grillades & what is it servered with?

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencer...dixie_quiz.html

& here's some tips for Yankees

http://www.countryhumor.com/humor/tipsforyankees.htm

←

I wound up 78% Dixie, but I agree with others that some of those questions aren't that indicative of your background. I think the diversity in the South is the issue. They must have geared this to the Altantic Coast Southern states, from what I can tell from the questions.

[racheld]

I came in at 94%, and they STILL said they belonged elsewhere.

Besides, I would no more address one person as "Y'all" than I'd fly.

And one joke fell plumb flat:

What are a Good Ole Boy's last words?

"Hey, Y'all!! Wa chis!!"

Oh, Lordy. They're gonna revoke my little pushpin.

Edited November 2, 2006 by racheld (log)

[007bond-jb]

Ok I messed up the yankee test link here,s the correct one

http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/yankeetest.html

the answers here are more correct

BTW I got 100%, & had Grillades for breakfast

Edited November 2, 2006 by 007bond-jb (log)

[annecros]

Ok I messed up the yankee test link here,s the correct one

http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/yankeetest.html

the answers here are more correct

BTW I got 100%, & had Grillades for breakfast

←

Wow, I got 52% Dixie on that one! Went from bad to worse.

Edit to add: I took the "avanced" test and scored 74%, so a little better, it still only described my neck as a "little rosy" instead of red.

Some of those questions I found follow some yankee stereotypes of how southerners speak, and do not reflect the realities of regional dialects. For example, most southerners would not hesitate to tell you that they can tell the difference in a Southern Accent from state to state. I can detect a difference between my home state of Georgia (Southwest Georgia to be exact), Alabama, Gulf area Florida, Central and Southern Florida, Tennessee and the Carolinas. Lousiana, Texas, and Virginia stick out like a sore thumb to me. KIN-TUKKY is very idoisyncratic. Not just accents, but word usage as well.

In my home town of Albany, Georgia, the word "Aunt" is pronouned three ways pretty evenly divided by multi-generational residents (Albany is somewhat of a black hole, those that are born there rarely leave, and those that pass through generally just pass through)

1. Ant

2. Ain't

3. Unt

Edited November 2, 2006 by annecros (log)

[C. sapidus]

I scored 43% Dixie - "barely Yankee". Sounds about right for someone from Maryland, just north of DC.