Culinary Duplicity

[Jaymes]

[Suvir Saran]

To all,

My apoligies.....

I have perhaps over reacted and read between lines that were not drawn.

Olivia,I am sorry to have offended you,as well as Suvir whom I respect greatly.

I should have taken care of my baggage in private.

B

Jaymes,

I think that note A caped chef posted was meant to apologise and move on. Not to move away from the site. But to bring closure to where he erred.

I have seen his posts around the site today. I am sure he has understood that he over-reacted. And his apology was timely and the least I would have expected from a person I should want to respect.

And certainly he is just as valuable to the great mix of members we have at egullet as any one else. Also of great value in his particular case, at least to me is his briging to us, with the addition of a small group of other such prized members, is the valued opinion of professional chefs.

As a whole, I wish myself and all eGulleteers more patience before we each react and make such pronouncements as we saw on this thread. It was apparent in this case, as has been the case most times, that our reactions to many issues, is often not based in any facts. It would be best to not react personally in a site that is a public one. That would be a lesson we can all learn from this.

And since I was active at the board last night, I quickly found myself lost in that tenuous issue, but woke up to the magic that eGullet is, in seeing that this thread had moved on to even more fascinating and significant turns. I thank all those members and the coordinators that have made this a great thread for each of us to learn and understand how chefs, professional and avocational use certain ingredients and why.

[chefette]

Fat Guy, Phyllo is a paper thin dough. You purchase it frozen, folded or rolled in a box. To use it you normally set it out flat one sheet at a time, brush a layer with butter, lay on another leaf, repeat butter, etc. (For one of our Crisco recipes we sprayed each sheet.)

Puff is a laminated dough created by folding butter between layers of dough. The butter bloc is first encased in an envelope of dough, rolled out, folded, rolled, folded, several times with rest periods in between to allow the gluten in the dough to relax. Finally, you roll the dough out fairly thin, cut the desired pieces, bake in a hot oven. In baking the water in the butter explodes into steam separating the layers of dough into a high light pastry crust. (as in the traditional Napoleon). A real pain to make, takes a long time. It is a real shame to see someone mess it up after you make a batch.

[Oreganought]

Nothing beats a 100% butter puff IMO.

I'll either make it when the restaurant is empty.

I do like to make puff in the walk-in,plus I get to nibble.

[Suvir Saran]

Nothing beats a 100% butter puff IMO.

I'll either make it when the restaurant is empty.

I do like to make puff in the walk-in,plus I get to nibble.

You like to nibble on raw puff? Really?

Never tried.. or even thought to.... Cool!

I have made it to decent success from Julia Childs recipe. I tried maybe 4-5 times before I ever got to finding it acceptable.

And now I use store bought...

[John Whiting]

You wouldn't make your own chocolate or your own marzipan--and if you tried you couldn't do it as well as the manufacturers with their specialized expensive equipment.

My wife, who has taught cookery courses, including baking, for thirty years (which doesn't necessarily make her the greatest but at least suggests that she'd experienced) never bothers to make puff pastry or to teach it any more, but buys it frozen -- but it must, she says, be 100 percent butter.

Marzipan, on the other hand, she always makes. It is a world away from any commercial marzipan I've ever tasted, either from fine restaurants or Paris patisseries. Guests who don't like commercial marzipan sometimes leave theirs behind on their plates without tasting it -- a mistake which I rectify as soon as I've carried it to the kitchen! But it's softer, more delicate and can't be shaped in as virtuosic a manner.

[ngatti]

edit: Note to self: read through entire thread before posting

[Fat Guy]

Objection: Asked and answered.

[tommy]

???

What gives??  What brought this on?

Nick

a bad oyster. don't worry about it.

[John Whiting]

As for shortcrust pastry: my wife's experience is that there can be a conflict between what tastes the best and what is practical or even possible in a commercial environment. For fat she uses half butter and half lard. The result has an incredible richness and lightness that falls apart in the mouth into flakes that disappear before you can swallow them. But the slices tend to fall apart as you serve them. If you bought it from a bakery, you'd arrive home with a box of crumbs. Alas, we'd no more buy a pie than a hot soufflé.

[John Whiting]

And as for angry posts, one thing I've learned from eGullet is that, if the topic is flowing, they are of no more importance than a fart. Fan the air and get on with it.

[John Whiting]

And chicken stock: As Steven has rightly said, doing it right requires a degree of time and attention. But doing it wrong can still produce a delicious result. We get six to twelve organic chicken carcasses at a time from a local butcher, cost well under two pounds. If I'm in a hurry I break them up roughly and put them in the pressure cooker with roughly cut onion, carrot and celery, salt and pepper, and whatever herbs I feel like. Add water (being a pressure cooker, it doesn't have to cover). Bring to pressure and give it half to 3/4 of an hour. Let the pressure come down, or speed it up under the cold tap if you're rushed.

If I've more time, I brown the carcasses first in the oven and sweat the vegetables in oil/butter in the open pressure cooker.

The result: Is it as good as if it had been slowly simmered? No way. It's not clear. It's not "refined". Is it as good as what I can buy? Infinitely better. And it cost me less than two quid for several pints, depending on how many carcasses, and about fifteen minutes of my not-so-valuable time.

[Fat Guy]

To put it another way: A question I sometimes ask chefs is "What is the single most important thing a home cook can do to improve his or her cooking?" Some of the most common answers: Stock-making, use of fresh herbs and freshly ground spices, better use of salt, more fat, better organization, better ingredients. I've never heard a chef say "making your own puff pastry" or anything of that nature.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Thanks for the almond flour tip, Steve. For years Mazal has made a Christmas cookie for which she has always ground almonds. I don't think she's ever been displeased with the result, but I will certainly suggest that she try some with commercial almond flour.

I have corresponded with home bakers who grind their own wheat berries, or even take them to a stone mill for grinding, but never one who has grown his own wheat.

At home, I have made bagels, soft pretzels, grissini, puff pastry, and lots of other things from scratch just for the hell of it. It's the challenge, the recreation, the therapy that's important. When all the little specialty ingredients, purchased at retail in small quantities are added up, along with my time, a loaf of New York Jewish Rye can be worth a small fortune. Nobody would expect a professional kitchen with a profit motive to do these things without building them into its model from the start, especially when outsourced goods can be of such high quality. A more confounding question is why restaurants will outsource lousy bread.

On the subject of risotto, butter is frequently called for to finish the dish. This is not cheating; rather, it is integral to the final product.

[Steve Klc]

Robert--a note about expecting pros to do certain things and since you have a special interest in doughs, let me say puff and phyllo would be the only doughs I'd buy frozen or encourage others to buy frozen. That's because the frozen product can be had at a high level. I feel doughs like brioche, croissant, danish you have to do yourself--and if you don't have the time or staff resources to do them--and then proof and bake properly--then don't do them. Do something else. The commercial alternatives are not good. So, most really good pastry chefs do them sparingly--say just for Sunday--but when they do, they are treats and superb.

[Jinmyo]

Having worked very hard as assistant head baker and head baker at several establishments many many years ago that specialized in French breads and croissants, I must agree with Special K: non. No frozen brioche, croissant, or (though I despise them) "danish". There are too many variables in production that must be handled skillfully such as environmental tempertaure, humidity and so on. And then there is the quality of the butter. And the temperature of that while spreading and then folding.

Phyllo and puff, yes.

edit:

Wonton wrappers. Has anyone mentioned wonton wrappers? Especially for the home cook, use them without guilt.

[Basildog]

A very interesting discussion.We make our own Bread,Ice Creams, Sorbets, Petit Fours etc etc.

I have real problems having the words "home made" on our menu.If we don't say the ice cream is made by us, guests don't realise thats why theres only one flavour avaliable at a time.They assume we buy it.But on the other hand, if we put "home made " next to the ice cream, but not next to the lemon tart, will they assume we buy that?

And linking to another thread on Reviewers and Guides..a local restaurant out scores us heavily in one guide...but i KNOW they buy sorbet!

Its a good job i'm not bitter and twisted eh?

And another thing...we don't make chicken stock as i have a supply of chicken jelly from a butcher who roasts chickens every day in a rotiseri.Take the fat off and dive into a fantastic chicken jelly...mmmmm

[Jinmyo]

And another thing...we don't make chicken stock as i have a supply of chicken jelly from a butcher who roasts chickens every day in a rotiseri.Take the fat off and dive into a fantastic chicken jelly...mmmmm

That's a great idea.

[Steve Klc]

Basil--I agree with your observation about "home made" completely.

A question, though--do you make your own bread because it is better/cheaper/more cost effective/more personal than what you could obtain by outsourcing? Or does it fit more of a personal philosophy--you want to do it all?

Is the sorbet the other "more highly rated" restaurant buys better than the sorbet you make? Better flavor, texture, consistency? If it is outsourced to a specialist who knows what they are doing--has very good freezers--knows how to use a refractometer and liquid sugars and powdered glucose and keep the stabilizers in just the right balance without going over the line to be "gummy" on the palate--that outsourced sorbet might be great. In this case I don't know. But an outsourced sorbet can be excellent.

A restaurant (not your restaurant) making its own sorbet might use fresh fruit of inferior quality--not flash pasteurize it first, not have a clue how to control sugar percentage, nor how to use a completely natural stabilizer, have lousy freezers shared by the cooks which involve opening and closing all day long and which correspondingly creates high and low temperature fluctuations for the sorbet, allowing its structure to deteriorate and ice crystals to develop rapidly.

I guess my larger point here in this thread is the first consideration has to be whether the finished product is good--and in the case of ice creams and sorbets many restaurants aren't doing them well. Chefs don't understand the science behind sorbet. Many can't afford the cost of a serious batch freezer. As a diner I'd like the best ice cream or sorbet on my dessert and don't care where it comes from. I'd prefer it to be made in house, for there is greater control and creativity which can be exerted in house--and I'd most definitely praise and value a restaurant making their own frozen elements in house if they are good--but outsourced ice creams and sorbets are, sadly, often far superior to "home made." Often, they can bought in small amounts more frequently if prioritized.

And I guess that brings it full circle back to how this thread started--I don't see it as duplicitous or cheating to outsource ice creams and sorbets--any more so than I see outsourcing bread as a bad thing. Especially if the outsourced products are every bit as good if not superior to what could be made in house in a given environment and at a given price point.

Claiming something is "home made" is no guarantee to quality, it's a misdirect and that perception on the part of the public should be changed. Something that looks and tastes good is good. Also, a chef or restaurateur trying to do everything in house should be appreciated for that philosophy--but not blindly so.

[Basildog]

Steve , you make some good points

We make bread because we like to do it., it is cheaper to make,and the quality is good.Yes i agree that out sourced products can be better, but our philsophy is to do as much as we can.

I'm not saying that our in house products are any better than bought in ones.Far from it, i'm sure there are better sorbets out there, but wheres the fun in that!

Personally i would like to try an in house sorbet , when dining, rather than one bought in.

EDit..totally agree with not blindly applauding people doing it all...i have a vision of a waiter in my head saying " try our bread Sir, we make it ourselves and its crap"

[Basildog]

Steve...your assumption that i know what i'm doing when it comes to sorbets is sadly wrong.I make sorbet in a rather slapdash way.My only defense is that we are making small amounts and if it don't work sometimes then we don't put it on the menu. I can print the menu at 6.55pm to cover all failures of my kitchen, and also to include any produce that has been offered to me late in the day(mostly fish from fishermen on there way home )

[Steve Klc]

Yes--Basil--I think what I really want, and see this thread as being valuable for, is kind of a re-awakening--a step toward kindling a new awareness of how consumers should approach goods and how they should approach the choices chefs have to make on a daily basis. (Is it more important that ingredients be sourced locally or that they are good? Is it more important that a dish or preparation be authentic or be good? That kind of thing.) It isn't adjectives or code on a menu--like "home made" that's of primary importance--but seeing those choices which chefs make as personal. There aren't as many clear cut rights and wrongs but more differences in degrees. And customers walk through the door for many reasons--some of your customers I am sure come because they know precisely you will personally oversee everything--that everything is home made--and that there is value in the fact that you don't offer a wide range of choices. One ice cream, if it turns out ok and if it doesn't, no ice cream that night.

I, too, would rather try as many things done by a chef's own hand--and I'd probably be a little more forgiving and understanding of the efforts--the personality if not perfection injected into those efforts--at given levels--than I would be of glittering four star places. My expectations are different.

I guess my main issue is that I value effort over adjective and reputation and that I value criticism and reflection over assumptions and blind faith. To go back to the sorbet angle--I don't begrudge anyone trying to do it in house even if it the end result is less than stellar, flawed and less than what I might find acceptable as a pastry chef. My problem is only with those who can't tell or explain the difference, try to dissuade others from thinking there is a difference and try to pass off a product as the best of its kind--when it isn't the best. That's different from someone putting forth a product and saying here is what I created today, enjoy. None of this applies to you--and it isn't meant as personal. But I see this alot more here in the states--assumptions on the part of the diner that are based on misperceptions created in the media or on tv or by the chefs and restaurateurs themselves--and it irks me.

So when you chuckled about how could you put "home made" on your menu for an item when every damn item on the menu is home made--I just wanted to try to flesh that out a bit, tell you I empathize, but that there are a few other ways to see it. And, risk credibility by saying sometimes, sometimes, a case can be made for outsourcing--and made for the right reasons. It might allow you to give more to your customers and give more of yourself in other ways.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Steve and Jin, aren't croissants are made from a dough very similar to puff? When you advocate making fresh croissants, are you supporting a dough made from scratch, or croissants made with a professional grade frozen puff pastry?

One day, I'd love to take on croissants and some French pastries (Danish?). But I'm primarily a bread baker, and there are so many challenges on my list...

Back to shortcuts, what about freshly made pasta, whether by machine or by hand, as opposed to a packaged product? At home, I will occasionally make elaborate pasta dishes, such as lasagna, from scratch, including handmade pasta, five-hour ragu (which freezes very well), and balsamella. I do this maybe once a year or less as a demonstration for an appreciative guest, because the difference between the scratch product and anything else is so dramatic. Once the ragu is done, it takes me three to five hours to put the dish together. I can't imagine a restaurant doing this cost effectively. When it shows up in a country restaurant in Italy, it's usually because the proprietor's mother made some at home and brought it over.

[Basildog]

Steve...i think we agree on more things than i first thought. The issue of local ingrediants is very interesting.I use alot of local produce , but as you say , if its good.We have French duck legs for our confit, as we find them the best.Wine is made locally, but IMHO is awfull, so we don't have it.

And out of interest..tonight we have Saffron Poached Pears with Strawberry Sorbet

I don't have any problems with ice cream..its just sorbet i lack knowledge.

By chance i was talking to a guy in India in a Food chat room this morning about sorbet...he was asking amounts of sugar/water etc...I explained how i make mine, but did give him some info out of Larousse...which he promptly answered with " your reading that from larousse"!!! I was sooo busted!

[Steve Klc]

Robert--no, croissants are very different--a yeast-raised dough. (You could make croissant-shaped products out of puff but that's not what Jin and I were referring to.) I guess technically you'd call it a leavened puff dough. Flour, salt, sugar, yeast, milk, butter.

I'm simplifying the variables and steps here, but you make a detrempe, let it rise (ferment) push the detrempe down, fold in a butter block as with puff, roll and turn somewhat similarly. But when you actually cut and shape the dough you also proof it and let it rise again--before baking--in a somewhat warm, very humid area. Activating the yeast just right, doubling the volume just right, getting the proof box just the right temp make croissants very tricky. This all before baking. So it's much more difficult to do croissant well than puff well.

Puff--no yeast, no proofing, no rising, no intermediate (read tricky) variables--just incorporate butter into the detrempe, roll, turn and fold. When you're ready to bake off a puff shape--just cut it, wash or glaze it depending on what you're doing with it--and bake.

What people have figured out--that croissants freeze well after they are shaped but before they rise, before they are proofed . That's why all the croissants you have now in hotels taste and look the same--they're bought pre-shaped, frozen, thawed, proofed and baked off.