All About Cherry Pie Inside and Out

[weinoo]

Thanks for all the ideas.  I'm considering trying a couple of different crusts.

Since the pie has to sit almost 24 hours before it will be consumed, I'm pretty concerned about sogginess.  It occurred to me that I might create a shield between the crust and the filling with slivered almonds.  Any thoughts?

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Well, that pretty much sucks, and I don't think anything you can do is going to make the pie as good as a pie baked within a 4 - 6 hour window prior to consuming.

[CaliPoutine]

Here is a bing cherry pie( I'm sure you can use Rainer).  Its from an older issue of Bon Appetite.  I made this for the eG heartland gathering in 2007

eta: Edsel took the photo!!

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So that beautiful cherry pie, Randi, appears to have a bit of a crumble/crisp/streusel type topping as opposed to a 2-crust pie...is that right?

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Yep, it has a crumb topping. Its from the August 05 issue of BA, but its not on the website. I paraphrased it for my blog back when I made it. I think the original recipe calls for sour cherries, but you can sub bing with a slight reduction of the sugar.

Tender Pie Crust

makes 2 dough disks, enough for 2 pie crusts

3 cups ap flour

2tbls sugar

1 3/4 tsp salt

1 cup plus 2tbls butter chilled unsalted cut into 1/2 inch cubes( I used 1 3/4 cup of butter and the rest crisco)

8tbls water

1 1/2 tsp cider vinegar

blend flour, sugar, and salt in processor. Add butter using on/off turns, process until course meal forms. Add 8tbls ice water and vinegar and blend until moist clumps form. Gather dough together. Turn dough out onto work surface, divide dough in half. form each half into a ball and flatten into a disk. Wrap in saran wrap. Chill at least 1 hour( I made these the day before and took one out before I made the pie)

Sour Cherry Streusel Pie

You can use Bing cherries, add 1tbl of lemon juice to the filling.

1 crust

Streusel

1 and 1/4 cup flour

6tbls light brown sugar

1/4 cup white sugar

3/4 tsp cinnamon

1/4 tsp salt

1 stick unsalted butter, melted.

1/4tsp vanilla extract

Mix first 5 ingredients in a bowl. Add melted butter and vanilla. Rub with fingertips until small clumps form.

Filling

Oven at 375. Place foil lined baking sheet in bottom of oven to catch spills( I baked mine on a foil lined cookie sheet)

1 cup( scant sugar). ( I thought that 1 cup was too much. Next time I'd use less)

3 1/2 tbls ap flour( I used instant tapioca)

1 tsp cinnamon

2 1/2 lbs sour cherries( I used bing)

Mix first 4 ingredients in blow. Add cherries, toss to coat. Let stand about 10 min until cherries release their juice. Transfer to crust, mounding in center. Top with streusel. Bake 20 min, tent loosely with foil and bake until top is golden about 1 hr 10 min.

[Khadija]

Thanks for all the ideas.  I'm considering trying a couple of different crusts.

Since the pie has to sit almost 24 hours before it will be consumed, I'm pretty concerned about sogginess.  It occurred to me that I might create a shield between the crust and the filling with slivered almonds.  Any thoughts?

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Well, that pretty much sucks, and I don't think anything you can do is going to make the pie as good as a pie baked within a 4 - 6 hour window prior to consuming.

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My new idea is to make the pie the night before, and freeze overnight, wake up early, and bake. Then, I'll take the pie with me, and it will be had with dinner that night. It will still have to sit for 8-10 hours, but not as bad as 24.

Does anyone know if the freezing method is good/bad for cooked or uncooked fillings? My pie dough is currently chilling, and I'm going to make the filling. I was leaning toward uncooked, but I'm wondering if that yields soggier pie?

[Chris Hennes]

It should freeze quite well unbaked, I wouldn't worry about it. Bake directly from frozen, for about 10-15 minutes longer than the recipe calls for. You may need to cover the crust with a bit of foil to keep it from getting too dark towards the end.

[Khadija]

I made two test pies. I feel deflated -- almost crushed. I am so tempted to give up, but by now I feel invested. I have a nice bottle of Lebanese olive oil, which I could give as a gift instead, but I really liked this pie idea. And I still have over three pounds of cherries hanging around.

Summary:

PIE #1:

Crust:

I used MaryMc's recipe. I think the problem was my flour. I used an unbleached organic pastry flour, which in the store was sitting next to whole wheat organic pastry flour. It looked suspiciously brown, but I forged away. The crust was flaky, and not exactly tough, but hard. It might be nice with something savory inside. The pie looked very brown unbaked, but kind of pretty -- I managed a lattice top for the first time. When baked, the pie got browner and uglier.

Filling:

I have three kinds of cherries, Ontario Bings, Ontario White Cherries, and some Washington Bings. The Ontario Bings are not nearly as big or nearly sweet as the ones from Washington. They're softer, less crisp. The white cherries, which I described upthread as Rainiers, don't taste anything like the ones we have imported to Ontario. These white cherries are small (smaller than the Ontario Bings), and a bit sour (but not as sour as sour cherries). Then I have some Washington Bings, which are big and sweet and dark, and a bit crisp.

I pitted a 2lb mix of cherries, mostly the Ontario ones. I mixed in some lemon zest, a judicious amount of lemon juice, grated ginger, and thyme. I then added about 1/2 cup sugar and some modified corn starch (clear gel). It was late, so I let the cherries macerate overnight. In the morning, I strained them (they gave off a lot of juice). I boiled the liquid down and added some more modified cornstarch and a tiny bit more sugar, until I had a syrup. I tossed some of that with the drained cherries. Threw in pie, covered, chilled, baked.

The filling tastes delicious, but not at all like a cherry pie should taste like. Very lemony, gingery, thyme-y. Not very sweet -- not sour, but not sweet like cherries (or sour like sour cherries). Too herbal. And it is WAY too watery. There is a huge pool of pure liquid in the bottom of the dish where I cut my test slice. Not cohesive at all.

PIE #2:

Crust:

I used the Cook's Illustrated Vodka Crust. I used an unbleached organic AP flour, which I've used before and looks and behaves like normal AP flour. The only change I made was that I used leaf lard instead of shortening. The crust worked very well. It's very flaky and tender, but not excessively short, as I've heard it can be. (Maybe I was rough with it?) It looks pretty, in an amateurish sort of way. The lattice is nice (I think the egg glaze toughened it, though). I'm pleased.

Filling:

I tried to be simpler. I did make a "shield" of toasted almonds, which I browned in butter, just a bit of lemon zest, ginger, and sugar. Nice touch, if it doesn't help the with juice overflow. The filling is three layers of cherries. First, Ontario Bings, roasted with a bit of butter and sugar. Next Washington Bings, tossed with a bit of modified corn starch and sugar. Then, Ontario Bings, tossed with a tiny bit of modified corn starch and sugar.

Overall, still not sweet enough (not sour), but leans toward savory cherry flavour. The bottom layer of roasted cherries is delicious, but mostly hidden by the other two layers. Not cohesive at all. Lacks goo.

AFTERMATH:

The second pie is substantially better than the first. I learned a lot. But it is not gift-worthy. The parts are good, but it doesn't come together properly. My room-mate promises plans to give the pies to her co-workers tomorrow, which is good, because I don't want to look at them.

I know what my problem is -- I wanted to avoid a cherry pie with a goopy, starchy, sugary filling, and I became too non-traditional without knowing what I'm doing. I would be willing to follow a recipe, but so many of the recipes out deal with sour cherries. I'm starting to doubt my ability to improvise.

I feel like I'm getting there, but at this point, I have no more experiments left. The next pie is the final. I'm thinking a simple cooked filling, without a lot of extra jazz. Or should I quit?

Edited July 20, 2009 by Khadija (log)

[Chris Hennes]

I wanted to avoid a cherry pie with a goopy, starchy, sugary filling

and

Not cohesive at all. Lacks goo.

Here's your trouble: "cohesive" pies, like a diner-style cherry pie, are by definition starchy, gloppy, and sugary. If you want to avoid that, you are going to have to live with a looser texture. It doesn't have to have standing liquid, but the cherries aren't going to stick themselves together. I happen to prefer this to "diner style," but if you're giving it as a gift to someone who likes (or just expects) the glued-together-ness of those cornstarch-and-sugar-goop pies, you have to take a different approach, probably starting by making a cherry pie filling separately. This is especially true if you are not using sour cherries: a Bing cherry pie is going to hold together less than a sour cherry pie, in my experience.

[Khadija]

Thanks, Chris. I have no idea what my friend expects of a cherry pie. Knowing him, I seriously doubt he's a diner cherry pie fan. He likes clean, fresh, well prepared things. He really likes to try to eat seasonally and locally, and he has done a lot of nice things for me. So, I thought a cherry pie would be a nice gesture.

Maybe I do just need different expectations of this pie. I have never liked cherry pie, because I found it too sweet and gloopy. Bit I like the idea of it. I love cherries. I love very good pie crust.

The roasted cherries I made for the bottom layer of the second pie are insanely good. I did the second two layers in a more traditional way (just tossed with instagel and sugar and thrown in raw), because I thought it might add some kind of taste and textural contrast. I think doing that just gave off a lot of juice.

Maybe for the third pie, I just roast all the cherries, and forget about goo. I think this will help with my liquid problems.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Khadija (log)

[Chris Hennes]

I'm going to steal your roasting idea tomorrow, I think: it sounds really interesting, and I've still got a few pounds of Bings left. Any tricks to roasting them?

[Khadija]

Great! We can be roasted cherry buddies.

My main trick for roasting most things (especially fruit or veg) is to remove excess liquid (and fat) regularly, throughout the process of roasting.

I tossed these cherries with a bit of butter (I had some finely grated butter with sitting around -- it had a tiny bit of ginger and lemon zest in it, but not much.) I added a bit of salt and the smallest bit of sugar. Put in a 350 oven, and went on to other pie making tasks. When the cherries had given off a pool of juice, I scooped them out of the pan with a slotted spoon, and set aside, drained the juice in a jar (and saved). Then I threw the cherries back int he pan and in the oven. If they had given off another pool of juice, I would have removed that too, but they didn't.

They would be great on ice cream or yoghurt or with lots of meats (like duck or pork). But I'm sticking with pie right now. I think they would be great with some kind of goat cheese, which makes me want to put goat cheese in the pie. But I'm trying not to get carried away.

[Khadija]

I wanted to avoid a cherry pie with a goopy, starchy, sugary filling

and

Not cohesive at all. Lacks goo.

Here's your trouble: "cohesive" pies, like a diner-style cherry pie, are by definition starchy, gloppy, and sugary. If you want to avoid that, you are going to have to live with a looser texture. It doesn't have to have standing liquid, but the cherries aren't going to stick themselves together. I happen to prefer this to "diner style," but if you're giving it as a gift to someone who likes (or just expects) the glued-together-ness of those cornstarch-and-sugar-goop pies, you have to take a different approach, probably starting by making a cherry pie filling separately. This is especially true if you are not using sour cherries: a Bing cherry pie is going to hold together less than a sour cherry pie, in my experience.

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I'm wondering if chocolate might solve some cohesion issues.

[Lindacakes]

I recently made a very nice cherry pie. I used RLB recipe, but I didn't do any cooking or reducing. I started with sour cherries from the farmer's market and was conservative with the sugar and the almond extract. I used a cup more cherries than Rose (4 cups instead of 3).

The thickener was cornstarch.

The pie was quite liquid after baking. It thickened after setting a proper amount of time (fruit pies need at least four to six hours to set) and the crust was not soggy.

I used the traditional lattice top.

My only regret was using a Pillsbury Ready Crust. I did it because of time and energy constraints. Leathery. So inferior. Everyone was ooing and ahhing and I was cringing through my smile.

You call THAT pie?

Farm Journal is a good source for pie recipes. Farm ladies compete at county fairs on pie crust and fresh fruit.

Good thing I froze four cups of cherries because I need to compete with the Pillsbury company.

[Khadija]

I recently made a very nice cherry pie.  I used RLB recipe, but I didn't do any cooking or reducing.  I started with sour cherries from the farmer's market and was conservative with the sugar and the almond extract.  I used a cup more cherries than Rose (4 cups instead of 3).

The thickener was cornstarch.

The pie was quite liquid after baking.  It thickened after setting a proper amount of time (fruit pies need at least four to six hours to set) and the crust was not soggy.

I used the traditional lattice top.

My only regret was using a Pillsbury Ready Crust.  I did it because of time and energy constraints.  Leathery.  So inferior.  Everyone was ooing and ahhing and I was cringing through my smile.

You call THAT pie?

Farm Journal is a good source for pie recipes.  Farm ladies compete at county fairs on pie crust and fresh fruit.

Good thing I froze four cups of cherries because I need to compete with the Pillsbury company.

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Yesterday, I knew that you're supposed to let a pie rest to "set up," before you cut in. But I was insanely impatient. I tested the pies after only slightly over an hour.

Today, the second pie still lacks that gooey texture I associate with cherry pies, but it is not entirely uncohesive. I also realized that the lack of cherry flavor is being diluted by the Ontario white cherries. The Roasted Ontario Bings and the Washington Bings are very intensely flavoured. The pie is not wet at all, it could probably stand more moisture, actually. The crust is crisp.

I can see my way through the next pie, I think. And it will rest this time round.

[Chris Hennes]

I made a roasted cherry pie today: it's still cooling, but here's the shot right out of the oven...

That's RLB's cream cheese crust ingredients, prepared in the Cook's Illustrated style. Having already eaten the scraps I can say that the crust is great, if a bit "rustic"-looking.

[Khadija]

That's gorgeous, Chris! Please report back about the taste.

[Khadija]

Also, have you made crust with leaf lard? Do you think the cream cheese method is superior? My leaf lard CI vodka pie crust is very good, I think. My roommate declared it excellent. But I see room for improvement.

[Chris Hennes]

I do make lard crusts sometimes: I prefer the cream cheese for fruit pies, and the lard for custard. I'm not sure I have a solid reasoning for this, though.

[Khadija]

I do make lard crusts sometimes: I prefer the cream cheese for fruit pies, and the lard for custard. I'm not sure I have a solid reasoning for this, though.

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Any news on the roasted cherry pie front?

[Chris Hennes]

That's the slice view: as you can see, it's completely cohesive, and I mean that in a bad way. The flavor was good, but I completely neglected to account for the loss of liquid in the roasting process and added way too much cornstarch (2.5 tbsp). So, here's your "diner-style" roasted cherry pie .

[Khadija]

That's the slice view: as you can see, it's completely cohesive, and I mean that in a bad way. The flavor was good, but I completely neglected to account for the loss of liquid in the roasting process and added way too much cornstarch (2.5 tbsp). So, here's your "diner-style" roasted cherry pie .

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Oh, no! I must say, the pie looks good, and I'm glad the flavour was good.

I haven't made my pie yet. The pastry disks are chilling. I have about half the cherries I need roasted, and was going to roast some more this evening.

I've reserved all the cherry juice, and planned to make some "gel" with that to toss with the cherries. If I roast the rest of the cherries, I could make a really thin goo. Maybe I don't need goo? What would you do?

[Chris Hennes]

I think my plan next time is to roast only half the cherries (for textural contrast), reserving all the juice while roasting, and then using a bit less than my standard 2.5 tbsp of corn starch for the filling.

[Khadija]

Thanks, Chris! I'm going to do something similar. You've been a real help.

[Rover]

Khadija & Chris - how long did you roast the cherries? This sounds SO intriguing.

Thanks

Rover

[Chris Hennes]

Er, until they seemed well roasted . I know, that's no help at all. I didn't really time it, but when the exuded liquid was more "syrup" than liquid I stopped. It was probably a half hour or so.

[Khadija]

Like Chris, I didn't measure the done-ness of my cherries by the clock. I don't measure done-ness of many things by the clock.

I remove liquid as soon as a mass pools when I roast things, so that the exterior caramelizes. and the food stuff doesn't steam or boil. I also occasionally toss. I roasted two batches of cherries, one in the oven, one on the stove-top in a pan. I consider the stove-top method roasting, because I'm achieving basically the same effect (but with more control and much more quickly).

I think the done-ness factor is really up to you, and what really stops me most of the time is the shrinkage factor. The more you roast, the smaller your cherries will get. They also get more flavourful, but volume can be a concern.

I also have a theory that if you reduce things past a certain point, their flavour becomes harder to detect. I don't know if they're blander, but maybe just too intense for the palate to handle, or at least my palate.

I sometimes roast huge pan fulls of things like butternut squash or eggplant down into a fraction of a cup, to use as the base of sauces. They're good on pasta. The eggplant paste is especially good with chili and tofu.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Khadija (log)

[Lindacakes]

Hey, Chris,

How did you like the crust? I've done that sour cream crust before, and as I recall, I thought it was quite good. Did you use the plastic bag method?

Regarding the liquidy-ness of the pie, I am not above siphoning out excess liquid and have done so with a baster and with an eyedropper! Insanity!