Cheese-making

[RWood]

18 minutes ago, donk79 said:

@RWood, Mozz takes practice in my experience.  I used to live about a mile from an Amishish raw milk dairy and made mozz semi-regularly.  At first I kneaded it too much and got a tougher, almost store-bought skim-milk mozz result.  Then I learned to knead it as little a possible to get it to cohere and got a much moister, softer, more pleasing result.

Thanks, I think that's what happened. 

[paul o' vendange]

Staff note: This post and responses to it have been split from The Sourdough Starter Topic discussion, to maintain topic focus.

 

On 2/4/2025 at 10:10 AM, Acelestialobject said:

On day 5 it wasn't showing much activity. And the next day, I left it without feeding for more than 24 hours. And when I remembered to check on it it had white mould on the residue on the sides of the bowl.

 

I hope to see it turn out this way Did you wipe the walls of the jar of your starter?? Is that important???

Interesting.  I've actually never had that issue so I'm sorry to say I can't help much with what happened, but I can say my experience - whether it's bread, or cheesemaking - is that if I set the parameters to favor the species I'm looking for, eventually, they'll win out.  Some people use things like apples or potatoes or some other means to sort of give a "jump start" to their new starters, hoping to avoid the ecological "war" that takes place (the "yuck" part of the battle) before things settle down and you get a working starter.  I used to play around a bit with things like active barley malt (to encourage easy access to sugars from starch) and salt in small amounts (to discourage/slow down unwanted species in favor of the more desired, salt-tolerant species).  Such as the Gerard Rubaud method, attached.  Now, I do nothing more than flour, water, and time.  

While I am making new starter or refreshing starter, I do clean the containers.  But honestly, I don't believe it's necessary.  In cheesemaking, where yes, sanitation is extremely important (i.e., Listeria is deadly), on aging surfaces like wood shelving, it's more important to worry about giving the desired species competitive advantage by temperature and humidity, than trying to achieve a sterile surface/substrate for rind development.  That's why when an official in upstate NY wanted to ban wooden shelving throughout the country on terrible science, many, myself included, raised the alarm, and prevailed (thankfully UW Madison's Center for Dairy Research joined in, with solid science).

rubaud levain-starter-formula for new levains.docx

[Acelestialobject]

5 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

Interesting.  I've actually never had that issue so I'm sorry to say I can't help much with what happened, but I can say my experience - whether it's bread, or cheesemaking - is that if I set the parameters to favor the species I'm looking for, eventually, they'll win out.  Some people use things like apples or potatoes or some other means to sort of give a "jump start" to their new starters, hoping to avoid the ecological "war" that takes place (the "yuck" part of the battle) before things settle down and you get a working starter.  I used to play around a bit with things like active barley malt (to encourage easy access to sugars from starch) and salt in small amounts (to discourage/slow down unwanted species in favor of the more desired, salt-tolerant species).  Such as the Gerard Rubaud method, attached.  Now, I do nothing more than flour, water, and time.  

While I am making new starter or refreshing starter, I do clean the containers.  But honestly, I don't believe it's necessary.  In cheesemaking, where yes, sanitation is extremely important (i.e., Listeria is deadly), on aging surfaces like wood shelving, it's more important to worry about giving the desired species competitive advantage by temperature and humidity, than trying to achieve a sterile surface/substrate for rind development.  That's why when an official in upstate NY wanted to ban wooden shelving throughout the country on terrible science, many, myself included, raised the alarm, and prevailed (thankfully UW Madison's Center for Dairy Research joined in, with solid science).

rubaud levain-starter-formula for new levains.docx 9.23 kB · 2 downloads

Thank you..Then I'll continue doing what Im doing till I get the result like you said. Also I had no idea cheese making could be so precise and a small misstep could end up being deadly O.O

[paul o' vendange]

3 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Thank you..Then I'll continue doing what Im doing till I get the result like you said. Also I had no idea cheese making could be so precise and a small misstep could end up being deadly O.O

Have fun!

 

All my cheeses were from raw, pasture-raised Ayrshire cows, two brothers, friends of mine, smallhold.  I made Abondance, a hard, long-aged French alpine style, tommes, again, hard, alpine style, and reblochon, this one a soft, stinkier, richer cheese.  So many species can foul a cheese and make it unedible, but not unsafe. 

 

E-coli is usually introduced pre-make, i.e., fecal contamination somewhere prior to the make.  Salmonella can be the same, but also through process errors, i.e., poor sanitation. Listeria is particularly dangerous and can be deadly.  It is usually not a problem in the making itself, but plant sanitation, i.e., it is a species that can survive the cold temps of storage, and is particularly nasty as it forms a (self-protective) biofilm resistant to sanitation after it is given a foothold.  Sadly a cheesemaker I once knew killed several people due to Listeria.  It turns out it was his lack of proper sanitation protocols.  Once in a plant, nothing but a complete overhaul of all surfaces everywhere will do.

A few pics of my cheesemaking - and the cows they came from.

 

 

[Acelestialobject]

11 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

Have fun!

 

All my cheeses were from raw, pasture-raised Ayrshire cows, two brothers, friends of mine, smallhold.  I made Abondance, a hard, long-aged French alpine style, tommes, again, hard, alpine style, and reblochon, this one a soft, stinkier, richer cheese.  So many species can foul a cheese and make it unedible, but not unsafe. 

 

E-coli is usually introduced pre-make, i.e., fecal contamination somewhere prior to the make.  Salmonella can be the same, but also through process errors, i.e., poor sanitation. Listeria is particularly dangerous and can be deadly.  It is usually not a problem in the making itself, but plant sanitation, i.e., it is a species that can survive the cold temps of storage, and is particularly nasty as it forms a (self-protective) biofilm resistant to sanitation after it is given a foothold.  Sadly a cheesemaker I once knew killed several people due to Listeria.  It turns out it was his lack of proper sanitation protocols.  Once in a plant, nothing but a complete overhaul of all surfaces everywhere will do.

A few pics of my cheesemaking - and the cows they came from.

 

 

Wow. Cheesemaking is so cool. I didn't know listeria could be so persistent. Also, Your cows look really friendly and nice. Hope they live a long happy life

[paul o' vendange]

1 hour ago, Acelestialobject said:

Wow. Cheesemaking is so cool. I didn't know listeria could be so persistent. Also, Your cows look really friendly and nice. Hope they live a long happy life

Thanks!  These cows are the most loved cows I've ever known.  The two brothers have devoted their lives to living rightly - as soon as you start down the driveway to their home, you feel a kinetic difference, really.  They rotationally graze the girls on small paddocks loaded with grasses, forbs, clover.  One of the cool things about using raw milk is that you taste the seasons in the cheese - the spring and summer cheeses are loaded with grass, floral and herbal notes, the winter cheeses are creamy, more luxuriant, richer.  One of the most beautiful things to watch is the first time they're out on pasture after the spring thaw and the ground has hardened up enough to let them out - they get as giddy as puppies, spin in the air and play.  Never knew cows have such personalities until coming to know Jeff and Greg and their friends.

[Acelestialobject]

8 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

Thanks!  These cows are the most loved cows I've ever known.  The two brothers have devoted their lives to living rightly - as soon as you start down the driveway to their home, you feel a kinetic difference, really.  They rotationally graze the girls on small paddocks loaded with grasses, forbs, clover.  One of the cool things about using raw milk is that you taste the seasons in the cheese - the spring and summer cheeses are loaded with grass, floral and herbal notes, the winter cheeses are creamy, more luxuriant, richer.  One of the most beautiful things to watch is the first time they're out on pasture after the spring thaw and the ground has hardened up enough to let them out - they get as giddy as puppies, spin in the air and play.  Never knew cows have such personalities until coming to know Jeff and Greg and their friends.

 

That sounds absolutely amazing! It’s so heartwarming to hear about cows being raised with such care and respect. Also the seasonal differences in flavor sounds fascinating—nature’s own artistry at work. And those cows playing after the spring thaw? That’s such a beautiful image. It’s a reminder of how deeply animals feel joy when given the space to live as they should. Thanks for sharing this! :))