Learning About Rhones

[Beachfan]

And kudo's for Nina for starting the thread!

[tommy]

Gee we must be doing good if Tommy offered a compliment.

actually, i think it's "too much" information. too much noise. give me 2 or 3 decent producers at a decent price point that are readily available in a metropolitan area and i'll be happy.

[MartyL]

As luck would have it, I just got an e-mail from Garnet wines (929 Lexington Ave., Tel: 212-772-3211), offering a number of 2000 CDPs.

Here are 2 that I think would be worthwhile to try:

2000 Pierre Usseglio ($ 29.99)

2000 Cuvee du Vatican Reserve Sixtine ($ 34.99)

I tried the Sixtine about a month ago in CDP and thought it had great fruit and was also nicely balanced. I haven't tried the first one but would recommend it on the strength of the producer's reputation.

For those who are counting, Robert Parker rated the first one 92 and the second one 91-94.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tommy - Here are a few good Cote de Rhones that are usually available in town for less than $20.

Clos des Mure

Roger Sabon Cuvee Prestige

Domaine Reamejeanne

Domaine de la Mordoree Lirac

Those should be about $11 each.

If you want to graduate to the next category,

Domaine Cayron from Gigondas

Domaine Aphelanthes (any of their three bottlings)

Alain Graillot - Crozes Hermitages

All around $20-$23

If you want to splurge a little,

Domaine Gramenon La Meme

Les Cailloux Chateuneuf du Pape

Jerome Bressy Rasteau Gourt de Mautens

Andre Soumade Rasteau Fleur de Confiance

Between $30-$45

The next level jumps to about $60. Of course there are wines in between those prices but I don't think the quality changes that much. But starting at $60 and continuing through $165 a bottle it starts getting really interesting. Wine at around $60 which are stellar are,

Beaucastel Chateaunef du Pape

Jamet Cote Rotie

Ogier Cote Rotie

Domaine Pegau Chateauneuf du Pape

Thierry Allemand Cornas

The high end wines of the region(s) are

Guigal La Landonne, Mouline, Turque $165 - $250

Chave Hermitage - $135-$200

Beaucastel Hommage Jacques Perrin $250

Henri Bonneau Reserve des Celestins $300

Les Cailloux Cuvee Centenaire - $200

Roger Sabon Le Sescret de Sabon - $300

Now go out and buy them and report back to us.

[LaNiña]

oh god, now i'm spending money. what years to look for on those, steve? same rules as above described, i'm assuming.

edit: duh

[tommy]

steve, that was the most efficient and effective post i've ever read from you.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Here's Plotnicki's ranking of years. For the south which includes Chateauneuf du Pape, Gigondas and Rasteau

1998

1990

1989

2000

1999

1995

1997

1994

For Cote Rotie

1991

1988

1999

1998

1989

1995

For Hermitage

1990

1999

1998

1995

1991

I'm sure others will have varying opinions on this and they should chime in.

[LaNiña]

i'm having heart palpitations.

[Gavin Jones]

Thankyou Steve, very informative.

I have drunk Ch. de Beaucastel & Vieux Telegraphe (CNdP) from 1994 and 1995 and strike me as having enough bottle age (but still quite a bit of life in them).

Cote Rotie & Cornas really do seem to me to need quite a while (10+ years) to fully integrate & for the syrah to open out.

Not that the sensation of licking leather isn't pleasurable, but I like to participate in that separately from wine drinking.

It seems it was hard to make a terrible wine from 1998-2000 in the Rhone and some of the lighter wines are delicious at small small prices.

e.g. Domaine des Grands Bois2000 Cotes du Rhone at £5 was a gorgeous wine. Also St. Cosme.

[rich]

The French especially in Burgundy and Rhone use the term "terroir" about as much as the Californians use "hillside." While both these terms are important, as more and more winemakers use them, the meaning becomes diluted.

Has anyone tasted a top-notch California Syrah? Etude is good, Edmunds is very nice, but I think the '99 Truchard is a match for any "old world" bottling. Any thoughts?

[LaNiña]

Does anyone happen to know if Connecticut is one of those states with state-controlled wine and liquor prices?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Gavin - If you see a bottle in the U.K. of 1981 Beaucastel, it's stupendous. I'm not quite sure why that vintage for Beaucastel was so successful but the wine is truly a marvel. I get offers every now and then around 55 pounds from brokers in London. Considering how the 1998 is about 40 pounds, an extra 15 quid is amazingly cheap for a fully mature great bottle. And it has years of life left to go. As oppossed to the 1978 Beaucastel, also a terrific bottle but getting a bit dodgy at this point. In Cote Rotie, 1989 is drinking really well now for producers like Jamet and Gentaz-Dervieux. And you can find them in the U.K. in the 50-65 pound range. Thos are amazing bargains for top wines.

I think the topic of mature wine and people's preferences deserves a thread of its own. But for now I can say that I think if you were to drink a perfectly stored bottle of the '81 Beaucastel, I would bet it would recalibrate your palate and then the youngishness of wines like the '94 and '95 would stick out more. Just a hunch.

Rich - I think you have made some gross generalizations about how the French use the term terroir. If you had read through this thread, you would know that terroir is not a relative term, it is a trademark that can only be used legally if your grapes are grown within the applaltion. For example, if you were to label your wine Cote Rotie and it was found that the wine came from grapes that were grown outside of the 497 acres that make up the Cote Rotie appelation, you could go to jail. So terroir is not to be taken lightly. But that doesn't mean that there aren't smaller appelations where they misuse the phrase to make their wines sound important when the "terroir" they express really isn't very distinguishable.

[Ron Johnson]

Steve, if your vintages are listed in order of preference, I would rate 1990 and 1995 higher for Cote Rotie. Otherwise, good job.

[rich]

Steve - I should have said the way French winemakers use the term when "speaking" about their wine, much as the Californians when describing their unique "hillside" vineyards.

A few years ago I wrote a wine catalog for a NYC merchant and interviewed a number of winemakers. The term was used so often, it became humorous. It got to the point where it was used to describe purchased grapes from the Loire.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well the reason that Ca. winemakers use the term "Hillside Grapes" is because grapes grown on a slope usually have more oomph to them. The reason being that the vines need to work harder on a hillside to find water and the harder the vines work, the happier the grapes are. Many of the worlds famous vineyards are on steep hillsides. Cote Rotie I already mentioned. But the Canubbi Boschis Vineyard in Barolo is very steep as well. As is the Hermitage vineyard. I don't know if it's true but, I had heard that the famous "Jackass Vineyard" of Martinelli Zinfandel fame got its name because you had to be a jackass to take a tractor on a slope that steep.

[rich]

I agree, "hillside" is a key term for California winemakers. I'm probably not correct on this, but the Diamond Creek Vineyards in Napa claim to have the steepest, rockiest vineyards.

[Beachfan]

Tommy - Here are a few good Cote de Rhones that are usually available in town for less than $20.

Clos des Mure

Roger Sabon Cuvee Prestige

Domaine Reamejeanne

Domaine de la Mordoree Lirac

Those should be about $11 each.

If you want to graduate to the next category,

Domaine Cayron from Gigondas

Domaine Aphelanthes (any of their three bottlings)

Alain Graillot - Crozes Hermitages

All around $20-$23

If you want to splurge a little,

Domaine Gramenon La Meme

Les Cailloux Chateuneuf du Pape

Jerome Bressy Rasteau Gourt de Mautens

Andre Soumade Rasteau Fleur de Confiance

Between $30-$45

The next level jumps to about $60. Of course there are wines in between those prices but I don't think the quality changes that much. But starting at $60 and continuing through $165 a bottle it starts getting really interesting. Wine at around $60 which are stellar are,

Beaucastel Chateaunef du Pape

Jamet Cote Rotie

Ogier Cote Rotie

Domaine Pegau Chateauneuf du Pape

Thierry Allemand Cornas

The high end wines of the region(s) are

Guigal La Landonne, Mouline, Turque $165 - $250

Chave Hermitage - $135-$200

Beaucastel Hommage Jacques Perrin $250

Henri Bonneau Reserve des Celestins $300

Les Cailloux Cuvee Centenaire - $200

Roger Sabon Le Sescret de Sabon - $300

Now go out and buy them and report back to us.

Great set of posts, Steve. I'll have to check out the Rasteau's; I really like the Beaurenard's inexpensive bottle; I'm interested to see what going a couple of steps up brings to the table.

Re: your Southern Rhone, year rankings, pretty spot on except I like 94 better than 97. I have some 94 Beaucastel in halfs that are lovely. Also Janasse 94. To be complete, I'd put 93 at the bottom; you see that yearwine lists now and again.

What might be interesting for the readers is if you or Ron put together a couple of Old World/New World style Rhone pairs of currently available wines (each of the pair being from same appelation and price category). There's no substitute for tasting and this way people can illustrate your explanation via the glass.

[Beachfan]

Tommy - Roger Sabon Le Secret de Sabon - $300

Now go out and buy them and report back to us.

Yes Tommy, please let us in on the Secret.

[hollywood]

Tommy - Here are a few good Cote de Rhones that are usually available in town for less than $20.

Clos des Mure

Roger Sabon Cuvee Prestige

Domaine Reamejeanne

Domaine de la Mordoree Lirac

Those should be about $11 each.

If you want to graduate to the next category,

Domaine Cayron from Gigondas

Domaine Aphelanthes (any of their three bottlings)

Alain Graillot - Crozes Hermitages

All around $20-$23

If you want to splurge a little,

Domaine Gramenon La Meme

Les Cailloux Chateuneuf du Pape

Jerome Bressy Rasteau Gourt de Mautens

Andre Soumade Rasteau Fleur de Confiance

Between $30-$45

The next level jumps to about $60. Of course there are wines in between those prices but I don't think the quality changes that much. But starting at $60 and continuing through $165 a bottle it starts getting really interesting. Wine at around $60 which are stellar are,

Beaucastel Chateaunef du Pape

Jamet Cote Rotie

Ogier Cote Rotie

Domaine Pegau Chateauneuf du Pape

Thierry Allemand Cornas

The high end wines of the region(s) are

Guigal La Landonne, Mouline, Turque $165 - $250

Chave Hermitage - $135-$200

Beaucastel Hommage Jacques Perrin $250

Henri Bonneau Reserve des Celestins $300

Les Cailloux Cuvee Centenaire - $200

Roger Sabon Le Sescret de Sabon - $300

Now go out and buy them and report back to us.

Steve,

Given the price of Beaucastel Chateauneuf and others, what do you think of Coudoulet de Beaucastel as a wine value? Is it "Baby Beaucastel"?

As for this hillside business, I thought it was the limestone in the soil that made the difference, no?

On the topic of oysters, have you been to New Orleans? You could gorge on oysters there.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hollywood - I don't have much experience drinking Coudelet. It's the perfect case of being on the wrong side of the highway. My gut always tells me to discount second bottlings from growers who are famous for a top bottling. I think places like Domaine Gramenon where all they make are Cote de Rhones have more of an incentive to make a bottling with some distinction to it. But I have some friends who swear by Coudelet so who knows. Limestone having an impact and being on a hillside are two different things. And I can blame my lask of oyster eating on my wife who likes clams on the halfshell but not oysters. Go figure.

[hollywood]

Hollywood - I don't have much experience drinking Coudelet. It's the perfect case of being on the wrong side of the highway. My gut always tells me to discount second bottlings from growers who are famous for a top bottling. I think places like Domaine Gramenon where all they make are Cote de Rhones have more of an incentive to make a bottling with some distinction to it. But I have some friends who swear by Coudelet so who knows. Limestone having an impact and being on a hillside are two different things. And I can blame my lask of oyster eating on my wife who likes clams on the halfshell but not oysters. Go figure.

Wrong side of the highway in terms of appellation, perhaps, but value, how about that? Certainly, I'd agree that Perrin red is pretty blah but the Coudoulet! As for oysters, clearly there are more things in heaven and on earth than are dreamt of in your Plotnickiism. Get thee to New Orleans and start eating: Oysters Bienville, Oysters Rockefeller, on the half shell at Acme or Felix's. As for your better half, let her eat pompano or trout marguery or crawfish etouffe.

[Damian]

Excellent thread. Thank you one and all. Wish I could contribute more, but my experience is quite limited. I have had the 1999 Domaine Vieux Telegraphe and really enjoyed, and the Rasteaus are very accessible wines. Now I'll have to try some of these recommendations and report back.

[Lesley C]

I liked the white Coudoulet (2000), especially with lobster, but found the red (2000) a bit dull.

[Damian]

Damn, shared a bottle of Jaboulet Crozes-Hermitage 1999 this evening. Didn't memorize as well as I thought - skip this one...boring. Bright fruit, but not much else happening. Even for a young wine, this lacked any sense of fun. Not cheap either at $25 at Beacon Liquors.

[Blue Heron]

I feel like I've learned a year's worth of info in just 2 days. Thanks for this in depth discussion & sharing of knowledge, and for questions answered as well.

Beachfan's idea of an eGullet old world/ new world style wine tasting comparison sounds like fun. Does anyone have any suggestions of which wines to try?