Why a tough bird?

[Scargo]

I usually buy smaller whole chickens but recently I purchased a five pound bird. It was not called a "boiler" or anything like that. Just a generic "whole chicken" from the Stop n Shop...

I roasted it at 425 for at least an hour in a large, open Allclad pot. About 45 minutes into the cooking, I checked it and poured a cup of water into the bottom of the pan. I've never done this before....

I cooked it 15 to 30 minutes more and there was virtually no liquid. On removal, it was very firm and I could not pull a leg off, but the juices were clear in the leg and thigh. Deep in the breast there was still a hint of red.

I was in a hurry to serve dinner so I sliced some breast off and put that, with some leg and thigh in a shallow dish and microwaved it fo just one minute on high.

This was the toughest bird I have ever come across! The breast meat was barely edible.

The thighs were tough as nails!

Did I do something wrong? If I boil what I have, at this point, is it likely to become tenderer and worth fooling with?

This is so unusual for me that I am confounded about what to do or why it happened....

[Sony]

Was the chicken rested before you cut into it?

[Scargo]

No, not at all...

[markk]

 

I sliced some breast off and put that, with some leg and thigh in a shallow dish and microwaved it for just one minute on high.

This was the toughest bird I have ever come across! The breast meat was barely edible.

The thighs were tough as nails!

Did I do something wrong?

Yes.

[Scargo]

Why did the microwave make it tough? I microwave leftovers all the time.

I would say that the non-microwaved chicken is not as tough, but it is still tougher than any I can ever remember cooking.

Is microwaving any meat, by itself, a no-no?

[glennbech]

I'll try to answer this a bit more in detail than "yes, you did something wrong" :-)

Chicken and turkey needs to be handled carefully, and should be roasted at low temperatures to avoid/reduce the process of hardening muscle tissue.

It's also a very diffucult animal to roast in one piece, because the redder legs are tougher, and require more time in oven than the delicate white meat of the breasts.

For successfull chicken or turkey ;

- Always let rest to room temperature. (You didn't use a frozen one I Hope ?)

- Preheat ovcen to 200 c (392 f) This is the WARMEST temperature you'll ever use for a bird!

- Place a pan in the bottom of your oven.

- Put the bird on it's side on a metal rack, place it in the middle of the oven with it's right leg up.

- Roast for 10 minutes. Turn the bird around, and roast if for 10 minutes with the left leg up.

- Reduce temperature to 140c (284 f), put the bird on it's back, and roast for about 40 minutes more.

The times mentioned will vary on the size of the bird, and your oven. The reason why you want to fry it at a higher temperature in the beginning, is that most of the flavour in a bird is located the the fat close to the skin. Frying on high temperatures liquidizes this fat and let's it go into the meat.

Use a thermometer. Put it in the meatiest part of the leg (but not touching bone). Turn of the oven when the thermometer says 65C / 149F. Take it out of the oven when the temperature passes 70/158.

What I think went wrong in your case was ;

- If the meat was cold or even worse frozen, you have boiled the outside with steam (from the water you put in), and later in the micro wave oven. Leaving the inside cold. (red)

- Never use the micro wave.

For later ; If you over-do a bird like this, and the meat goes real tough. Make a cream sauce, and put the meat into the sauce. The fat will make the impression of juicy meat .-)

[glennbech]

Why did the microwave make it tough? I microwave leftovers all the time.

I would say that the non-microwaved chicken is not as tough, but it is still tougher than any I can ever remember cooking.

Is microwaving any meat, by itself, a no-no?

←

When making a steak with good meat quality, the optimal core temperature, when the meat is most tender, is about 55c/131f.

Microwaving boils the water (takes to 212g/100c) in meat 1-2 cm from the surface. Boiling is never good, and is a recipe for tough meat.

Microwaving leftovers is something completely different.

I'd invest in a thermometer, and rely on it to see when the meat is finished. It can be used for all kinds of meat, costs about $15. Different meats have different optimal temperatures. Information on this is available all over the place -)

good luck !

[Swisskaese]

It sounds like it was a hen instead of broiling chicken. It may have been mis-packaged.

I would try boiling it. What is the worst that can happen? You can't eat it, which is pretty much what you can't do now.

I cook a roasting chicken at 180C for 1-1/2 hours and it always comes out perfect.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[Ann_T]

I don't know why your bird was tough. It could have been because it was undercooked or maybe it was just a tough old bird to begin with. But I do have to disagree with Glen. Sorry Glen.

I've been roasting chickens and turkeys for years now following Barbara Kafka's instructions for high heat roasting. Whether a small 3 pounder or a 20 pound turkey, they go into a 500°F oven and come out wonderfully moist and tender. I use the same method for roasting prime rib and beef tenderloin with equally great results.

I'd throw the rest of the chicken in to a pot with some chicken broth and make a soup out of it.

Ann

[Scargo]

I do think that what you say has merit. The chicken was near freezing when I got it out, and straight into the oven it went....

If you roast, is it ever OK to add water, at any time? Is there any general rule you can apply to roasting all meats? I braise meats all the time with great success but I am talking roasting...

Are you saying flatly, that you should never microwave meats whether it is to cook them or to re-heat them? Can you reheat successfully on low, covered, etc., with no ill effects on tenderness? I confess I have reheated steak and also many dishes containing meats and have not realized that it hurts quality.... (perhaps some with the steak but I heat it very minimally) Usually after I roast a chicken, and serve it once, it goes into other dishes.

I do have and use a good electronic thermometer but I feel I know my oven and have successfully cooked so many smaller birds that I don't bother. I like the high heat method because it usually gives me a juicy bird on the inside and crispy-browned on the outside.

I think I will use what I have for coq au vin.... What do you think?

Edited April 30, 2006 by Scargo (log)

[Swisskaese]

I don't understand. Do you mean that the bird was frozen when you put it in the oven? I always thaw out chicken before I roast it. If anything, I would think that the chicken may still be raw inside if it was completely frozen.

[Scargo]

No, it was not frozen, just very cold. There was some slushy juice in the bottom of the bag. I keep my meat drawer quite cold. I rinsed it well and it was quite limber.

[cowpati]

I usually buy smaller whole chickens but recently I purchased a five pound bird. It was not called a "boiler" or anything like that. Just a generic "whole chicken" from the Stop n Shop...

I roasted it at 425 for at least an hour in a large, open Allclad pot. About 45 minutes into the cooking, I checked it and poured a cup of water into the bottom of the pan. I've never done this before....

I cooked it 15 to 30 minutes more and there was virtually no liquid. On removal, it was very firm and I could not pull a leg off, but the juices were clear in the leg and thigh. Deep in the breast there was still a hint of red.

I was in a hurry to serve dinner so I sliced some breast off and put that, with some leg and thigh in a shallow dish and microwaved it fo just one minute on high.

This was the toughest bird I have ever come across! The breast meat was barely edible.

The thighs were tough as nails!

Did I do something wrong? If I boil what I have, at this point, is it likely to become tenderer and worth fooling with?

This is so unusual for me that I am confounded about what to do or why it happened....

←

your heat was too high for roastin (imo). roast fowl at around 350 degrees no more. 325 is good, even. cover the pan to roast and depending on the size (a five lb. shouldn't take more than a hr. and a half). if you want crispy skin take the cover off the last five minutes or so. always put some liquid in the pan to start. about a half inch of water and a half stick of butter would do fine. but, the secret is to check the legs. if it doesn't fall off when tugged it isn't done. and if you saw pink in the breast meat, it wasn't done.

you can put the whole mess back in the oven put some water in the bottom a little butter and finish roasting it....slower...325 for another 45 minutes if the bird is cooled down.

you can also go by the smell. even with a lid on a roaster a cooked bird makes the house smell like dinner is almost ready.

[Scargo]

Thanks for all of the comments. It is (now) back in the oven, covered, with some white wine and water @ 325F.

I'll reply as to my results!

[glennbech]

I don't know why your bird was tough.  It could have been because it was undercooked or maybe it was just a tough old bird to begin with.  But I do have to disagree with Glen. Sorry Glen. 

I've been roasting chickens and turkeys for years now following Barbara Kafka's instructions for high heat roasting.  Whether a small 3 pounder or a 20 pound turkey, they go into a 500°F oven and come out wonderfully moist and tender.  I use the same method for roasting prime rib and beef tenderloin with equally great results.

Ann

←

That aproach makes sense. The high heat makes sure that the exterior of the bird gets real hot, the browning process releases nice tasting juices from the skin fat into the meat. The heat then slowly transfers to the rest of the bird.

I guess cooking times are a bit reduced, and you let the bird rest for a while using this aproach. Am I right?

I fry chicken breast fillet that way. Heat all up. Golden and crispy crust, and then put the fillet away for the heat to evenly distribute itself. works every time. :-)

Edited April 30, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Ann_T]

I guess cooking times are a bit reduced, and you let the bird rest for a while using this aproach. Am I right?

Yes, that is exactly right Glenn. Roasting a chicken or a turkey at 500°F requires only about 10 minutes per pound give or take a few minutes and I always let roasts rest before carving.

Ann

[turkeybone]

I was always under the impression that the longer something was in the oven, in general, the more it dried out. This is why I prefer the high-low heat methods for roasting birds (450ish until they look 'bloated' in the oven, then 350 until they're done).

Anyway, I'm sure this lesson will still yield some delicious braised results.

[glennbech]

I was always under the impression that the longer something was in the oven, in general, the more it dried out. This is why I prefer the high-low heat methods for roasting birds (450ish until they look 'bloated' in the oven, then 350 until they're done).

←

Well... i know a very good reicipe for veal steak that cooks for 24 hours. It's not really all about how much time it gets in the oven. As you probably know, temperature is an important part of the equation. Slow roasting still gives very tender and juicy meat.

[glennbech]

Yes, that is exactly right Glenn.  Roasting a chicken or a turkey at 500°F requires only about 10 minutes per pound give or take a few minutes and I always let roasts  rest before carving.

Ann

←

Sounds really exciting. I'll make sure to try this with a free range chicken or something....

[Scargo]

I cooked the bird @325 for over an hour (with lid on) with some white wine.

This made it tender. This resulted in some reduced, dark, tasty juices.

I took all this (which started as a cajun flavored chicken) and made an Italian dish with artichokes, fire-roasted red peppers, jalapenos, calamatas, garlic and onion (+ thyme and oregano). Served it over pasta. I love it when my mate says "restaurant grade!". This is a great compliment from her.

Thanks for all the good input and advice!

I think I will experiment with the microwave and see if I can use it on low settings for succesfully heating meats. This is a new, big and powerful GE microwave and I am trying to get used to it....

[Sony]

Great save for the tough bird! Your end result sounds delicious.

When I had posted before about "resting" the meat, in addition to getting the chill off the bird before cooking, I would suggest letting it sit for 10-15 minutes after cooking before cutting into it. The carryover cooking can take a whole chicken from being underdone to being perfectly done (since it's a relatively large size, it will rise a few more degrees in temperature before cooling down, especially when it's cooked at a high temperature) Plus,the juice has an opportunity redistribute back in to the flesh with resting instead of running onto the plate (which can leave your chicken meat quite dry).

In the case of this chicken, even if the breast cooked all the way through, it might not have worked because it seemed better suited for stewing.

By the way, for the 500 degree high-heat roasting, please make sure that your oven is REALLY clean and that regardless, you turn off your smoke alarm or cover it with a shower cap. It produces a ton of smoke and a messy oven, but sometimes a good mess is worth a good meal

[Ann_T]

By the way, for the 500 degree high-heat roasting, please make sure that your oven is REALLY clean and that regardless, you turn off your smoke alarm or cover it with a shower cap. It produces a ton of smoke and a messy oven, but sometimes a good mess is worth a good meal

Good advice Sony. Another way to cut down on smoke is to use a roasting pan that is just the right size for what you are roasting, be it a large turkey or a small chicken. If you use a pan that is too big than you get much more spatter which causes all the smoke. I very seldom set off the smoke detector anymore.

Ann

[Torrilin]

The classification of a chicken is based on age, not weight. I've had 8 lb birds that made lovely tender roasts before.

Given that this bird got nuked, may have been partially frozen, and may have been steamed a bit, I'm not surprised it got tough. If it wasn't particularly fresh to begin with, any one of the errors would have been disasterous for a roast chicken. Microwaving produces noticable toughening of any meat, even when reheating leftovers. Actually *cooking* meat in the microwave is worse, you end up with rubbery hard meat. Unless chicken is flash frozen immediately after it was killed, freezing the bird will toughen it slightly. A partial freeze is really bad, because it alters part of the meat but not the whole bird. Steaming can make chicken rubbery and tough, which is why I don't usually use water when roasting.

If you start with a nice fresh chicken (the ideal is it was just killed) and use sensible tricks to slow down the breast cooking and focus heat on the thighs, you'll end up with a lovely roast. I never do get ideal birds, but if you make friends with your butcher, you can get birds that are in good shape.

Emily

[turkeybone]

Is that still true? I remember an article I read in the Washington Post that they were considering going by weight, and not age.

"While they were at it, regulators also cleaned out the cobwebs of some of the more obscure classifications for guineas, geese and ducks. They suggested that a Rock Cornish game hen be simply a chicken less than five weeks of age, of either sex, weighing less than five pounds, since there are no more purebred Cornish or Rock lines. They asked the industry to comment on a proposal to throw out age as a basis of classifying poultry. Instead, weight would be used. For example, a roaster would be five pounds no matter how old it was. "

"There isn't likely to be much opposition from industry groups, which have been working on speed and size since the 1950s. "Age is not important. It's getting the size of the bird you want and selling it at that time," said Richard Lobb, spokesman for the National Chicken Council, which represents chicken producers and processors. "But if they want to have these rules, it's fine with us. They follow industry categories." Similarly, Alice Johnson, president of the National Turkey Federation, said the proposal reflects "improved genetics and husbandry practices": The turkey industry now can produce a 12-to-14-pounder in six months. [For more information on the turkey industry, see: http://www.eatturkey.com especially the "About Turkey" section on the Pressroom page.] Tita Cherrier, a spokeswoman for Perdue, said the changes wouldn't affect the company because its roasters already are fully grown at eight weeks."

[kiliki]

I agree with Ann-high heat does NOT make a bird tough (I roast between 425-450 and have never had a problem).

Given that this bird got nuked, may have been partially frozen, and may have been steamed a bit, I'm not surprised it got tough. If it wasn't particularly fresh to begin with, any one of the errors would have been disasterous for a roast chicken.

My thoughts exactly.