SF: If you had to choose one...

[kai-m]

...meaning: one restaurant for a "casual bistro dinner with two friends" and one for "fine dining for two" in San Francisco. Which one in each category would you go to?

"Casual Bistro dinner":

-Clementine

-Chapeau!

-Piperade

-Cortez

-other-

"Fine Dining" (not to "formal/stiff", please!)

-Gary Danko

-La Folie

-Fleur de Lys (is it true what I read about their condescending treatment of younger diners?!?)

-Campton Place (anyone been there since the chefs changed?)

-Jardiniere

-Zuni

-other-

Thanks

kai

<edited for FdL question>

Edited April 26, 2006 by kai-m (log)

[JAZ]

I don't really have any suggestions on the "Fine Dining" side, but I would hesitate to put Zuni in that category. It's a great restaurant, but probably not what you're thinking of -- it's probably more in the casual bistro category.

Other places to consider in the first category would be Delfina and Incanto.

[kai-m]

Thanks, JAZ!

Iam open for other suggestions of course, since Iam obviously not from SF (not even from the US). But in the end, what I need mostly is some help to decide where to reserve a table...

So: where would you go?

[Carlsbad]

Since you are asking, for what it's worth, I would choose Piperade for the casual bistro.

I'm a big fan of Fleur de Lys, but it is about as formal (even stiff) as it gets in San Francisco. I would also put Zuni more into the casual bistro category.

[melkor]

I was at Piperade a week or so ago and while the food was fine it wasn't anything to write home about and the service was rushed and unfriendly. I think I'd go with Zuni for casual and Quince for something a bit more formal without being stuffy. Zuni isn't a place I'd recommend if you had more meals in SF, but for a single casual San Francisco experience - Zuni is a good bet.

[ingridsf]

My picks are:

-Clementine

-La Folie

I like smaller, quieter restaurants that are really friendly. (I mean, in addition to great food, I'm not saying the service is making up for so-so food.)

Incanto would be wonderful as well.

Edited April 26, 2006 by ingridsf (log)

[kai-m]

Thanks! And keep it coming!

The different takes on the question are really surprising and very interesting...

greetings

kai

PS: we are not THAT much into italian unless its really "fine" (as in "unusual") dining. Because if we have one thing in germany, it is real good italian restaurants...and when it comes to refined italian home-style-cooking, my sicilian mother-in-law is not to be beaten.

On the other hand "Quince" is mentioned so often on this forum...(but the menu sounds so "normal")

Edited April 26, 2006 by kai-m (log)

[ludja]

I was at Piperade a week or so ago and while the food was fine it wasn't anything to write home about and the service was rushed and unfriendly.  I think I'd go with Zuni for casual and Quince for something a bit more formal without being stuffy.  Zuni isn't a place I'd recommend if you had more meals in SF, but for a single casual San Francisco experience - Zuni is a good bet.

←

I think Zuni and Quince would be a great pair to check out. They both are a good example of Northern California influenced cuisine--Zuni (Medierranean) and Quince (Italy). I always have a wonderful time at Zuni Cafe and I would definately choose this over the french bistro choices you have listed--Chapeau and Clementine. I like Piperade (California French Basque cuisine) over several visits but have not been there in awhile. I like Piperade, but would still pick Zuni Cafe if I only went to one. Zuni also has a great atmosphere and is a great place for people watching.

I have had two excellent meals at Quince. It is smallish and quietly elegant; not too stuffy. I would like to return there soon. The quality of the ingredients was excellent and the menu choices were varied and innovative enough to be interesting. In ordering, it was difficult to narrow my choices down. THe chef spent some time at Chez Panisse and the Chez Panisse aesthetic shows in the menu and ingredients--a big positive for me.

I've enjoyed elegant dinners at both La Jardiniere and at Gary Danko but it has been a long time since I've been to either.

Edited April 26, 2006 by ludja (log)

[docsconz]

Speaking of Chez Panisse, I think I would choose that in the fine dining category. While it is not in San Francisco, it is IMO worth the trip from San Francisco. It is also the quintessential California (at least Northern) restaurant and still amongst the very best therre is. Only having eaten at the Cafe, I am making an assumption that the quality of the restaurant is comparable to that of the Cafe. The assumption is based on others comments here and my own experiences at the cafe.

[alanamoana]

i recently ate a delicious meal at rubicon...husband is chef, wife is pastry chef. this would be "fancy" but not too stuffy.

anybody been to boulevard lately? i feel like their food, although american, seems to fit the bistro/brasserie type cuisine. maybe a little more expensive than what you're looking for. i've heard the portions are a little on the big side.

[Stu-i-moto]

OK - seeing as though you are coming from a place where good Italian food prevails, I won't list Incanto in the first category. Nor will I list a newcomer that is soon to be a big name - La Ciccia (Sardinian food). The chef used to work at Acquarello (not sure his role there), and he is definitely onto something with this new place. Ran into Hiro Sone and Lissa Doumani from Ame/Terra the night I was there, and it's a bit of a trek from downtown, so I was surprised they came all that way (until I tried the food), but I digress...

Category 1: For you, I would pick The Slanted Door. Vietnamese/French. It's one of those places you go where the food is just so unique. And the ferry building where it is located is nice. It would actually be a great lunch option on a Satruday (make a reservation), because you could also stroll through the farmer's market. I'd put that on my list for sure...

Category 2: A toss up between Ame and Fleur de Lys. Ame is a newcomer, but the food, the service and the surroundings are very nice. The concept takes some getting used to: it's a combo of Japanese-influenced and Meditterranean/Cal-French style food. If you're not a stickler for tradition, this place is a must.

I went to Fleur de Lys recently and had a wonderful time. I am a younger diner; at 40, I was maybe the youngest one in the room (besides my wife). They treated us like royalty - even got a tour of the kitchen at the end by Hubert Keller himself. I think they were happy to see some younger blood in there. It's all in your attitude - if you go there to enjoy the food and enjoy yourself, you won't get caught up in the fact that it's a 4 star restaurant and a lot of rich people are eating there. Just have fun - that's the homiest 4-star restaurant I've ever been to.

Have fun!

[docsconz]

OK - seeing as though you are coming from a place where good Italian food prevails, I won't list Incanto in the first category. Nor will I list a newcomer that is soon to be a big name - La Ciccia (Sardinian food). The chef used to work at Acquarello (not sure his role there), and he is definitely onto something with this new place. Ran into Hiro Sone and Lissa Doumani from Ame/Terra the night I was there, and it's a bit of a trek from downtown, so I was surprised they came all that way (until I tried the food), but I digress...

Category 1: For you, I would pick The Slanted Door. Vietnamese/French. It's one of those places you go where the food is just so unique. And the ferry building where it is located is nice. It would actually be a great lunch option on a Satruday (make a reservation), because you could also stroll through the farmer's market. I'd put that on my list for sure...

Category 2: A toss up between Ame and Fleur de Lys. Ame is a newcomer, but the food, the service and the surroundings are very nice. The concept takes some getting used to: it's a combo of Japanese-influenced and Meditterranean/Cal-French style food. If you're not a stickler for tradition, this place is a must.

I went to Fleur de Lys recently and had a wonderful time. I am a younger diner; at 40, I was maybe the youngest one in the room (besides my wife). They treated us like royalty - even got a tour of the kitchen at the end by Hubert Keller himself. I think they were happy to see some younger blood in there. It's all in your attitude - if you go there to enjoy the food and enjoy yourself, you won't get caught up in the fact that it's a 4 star restaurant and a lot of rich people are eating there. Just have fun - that's the homiest 4-star restaurant I've ever been to.

Have fun!

←

I agree with Ame in 2, disagree with Slanted Door in 1. TSD was perhaps the most disappointing meal I had in the Bay Area on my recent visit. Ame was indeed excellent.

[moosnsqrl]

I've gotta go with Quince.

[ingridsf]

Whatever you do, I doubt you're going to suffer.

I totally agree on Chez Panisse. Upstairs cafe or downstairs restaurant. If you're ok w/ leaving SF.

Slanted Door might be okay for a sunset drink and a snack but it's food is so-so and the atmosphere seemed cold to me.

Zuni...so ambivalent about this place. The space is utterly charming but the food and the service have been inconsistent to me.

There's a fairly new, little place named Canteen that's gotten some strong praise. It's downtown SF.

Everybody's mileage varies, of course.

All of these places have more discussion about them on other threads, should you want more information.

[Ling]

Category 1: For you, I would pick The Slanted Door. Vietnamese/French. It's one of those places you go where the food is just so unique. And the ferry building where it is located is nice. It would actually be a great lunch option on a Satruday (make a reservation), because you could also stroll through the farmer's market. I'd put that on my list for sure...

←

I agree with Ame in 2, disagree with Slanted Door in 1. TSD was perhaps the most disappointing meal I had in the Bay Area on my recent visit. Ame was indeed excellent.

←

I also disagree with Slanted Door. It was also the most disappointing meal I had during my recent trip to San Fran. Not that it was bad, but it was just mediocre. And there's much, MUCH better food to be had.

[Hest88]

#1 category, if it has re-opened from its remodeling---Canteen. Which is probably a different experience than any of your other casual choices

#2 I agree that Zuni isn't fine dining. It has more of a casual feel. I'm tempted to suggest Ame, if you like seafood.

[kai-m]

Do you mean the "Canteen" at the Commodore hotel? I didn't find another one? (Would be a nice coincidence since we might stay at the Commodore...).

So far, we will go for Zuni or Clementine in the first category. (Zuni might be a lunch option, too...though after seeing this picture -from a favorable review- Iam not so sure anymore: http://www.miseblog.com/images/zuni_chicken020303big.JPG )

Iam surprised that nobody went for Cortez since it seems to be soo "in" at the moment...

Still haven't made up my mind about category 2...some places are already fully booked the whole week we are there (Danko for example). But it seems to boil down to Ame (it's the one at the St. Refis hotel, right?), Quince or La Folie...(will try Fleur de Lys in Vegas, maybe...)

Even though, I've gotta say this again, Quince's menu with all the pasta dishes and stuff doesn't really sound "surprising", but we'll see...

Again Iam surprised that nobody opted for the much praised Campton Place or Jardiniere...

edited for url

Edited April 28, 2006 by kai-m (log)

[eje]

Do you mean the "Canteen" at the Commodore hotel? I didn't find another one? (Would be a nice coincidence since we might stay at the Commodore...).

[...]

←

Canteen falls a bit between the categories. Pretty pricey for a bistro; but, it isn't as expensive or formal as, say, Jardiniere.

Canteen should be open again, at least I'm hoping, since we have reservations tomorrow night. Will report back.

There has been a turnover of chefs at both Campton Place and Cortez, so perhaps people haven't been back recently enough to give their opinions.

I like Clementine and have had a couple fun evenings there; but, I don't think they are doing anything particularly unique cuisine-wise that would cause me to recommend them above any of the other restaurants on your list. It's very good French Bistro food and homesick French friends of mine love it.

[kai-m]

Thanks eje! Can't wait to read your report...

melkor: since you wouldn't go for Zuni if you had several meals, what would you choose *if* you had more nights than one? (Because probably we will be there longer in SF than 2 nights...)

thanks

kai

PS: would love to try Manresa - but that is definitely too far away...

PPS: I read about "Betelnut" very often - any opinions?

[Stu-i-moto]

Still haven't made up my mind about category 2...some places are already fully booked the whole week we are there (Danko for example). But it seems to boil down to Ame (it's the one at the St. Refis hotel, right?), Quince or La Folie...(will try Fleur de Lys in Vegas, maybe...)

←

Yes - Ame is in the St. Regis Hotel - right next to the Museum of Modern Art, and across from Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, if you are so inclined...

If you are in Vegas, also try Burger Bar - that's Hubert Keller's casual place. I hear it's great -

[ulterior epicure]

I'd love to get a eGullet poll:

It's coming down to the wire and I need to decide whether to spend my last evening in the Bay area at Ame or The Dining Room. While I'm almost convinced on the TDR, a lot of arrows have been pointing toward Ame lately.

Any thoughts/suggestions. I know that Ame doesn't do a tasting menu, and I'll be eating alone, so that really puts a curb on Ame... but, if the food and the experience is truly that great, then I could be convinced.

Thanks everyone!

u.e.

[edited to add: I called Ame and was told that they do offer a tasting menu, but the person who answered the phone didn't know the number of courses involved or price. I was told that's up to the diner and generally it's $10-$15 per course. Can anyone help clarify?]

Edited April 29, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Stu-i-moto]

I'd love to get a eGullet poll:

It's coming down to the wire and I need to decide whether to spend my last evening in the Bay area at Ame or The Dining Room.  While I'm almost convinced on the TDR, a lot of arrows have been pointing toward Ame lately. 

Any thoughts/suggestions.  I know that Ame doesn't do a tasting menu, and I'll be eating alone, so that really puts a curb on Ame...  but, if the food and the experience is truly that great, then I could be convinced.

Thanks everyone!

u.e.

[edited to add: I called Ame and was told that they do offer a tasting menu, but the person who answered the phone didn't know the number of courses involved or price.  I was told that's up to the diner and generally it's $10-$15 per course.  Can anyone help clarify?]

←

I recently ate at The Dining Room. While I have to say that it was an equisute evening, I left thinking "is that all?" Seriously - the food is prepared with precision and care, but I felt it had it had no soul. The food didn't seem to "come from" anywhere, and for the money, I feel there are better alternatives.

As wacky as Ame's menu may seem at first blush, the food has a depth to it that you only realize by actually eating it. You won't see it from reading the menu and comparing it to TDR's; and the room at Ame is much more hip and avante garde than TDR (which is more like eating with your granparents, aunts and uncles). You could go to Ame and feel like you had fun - I don't think you could say the same about TDR...

I don't know about Ame's tasting menu, but I can tell you that you will come out of there with a lot more money in your pocket than if you go to TDR. I have been to Ame 3 times now, and when I went to TDR (in the last 30 days), I had the 9-course tasting menu with wine pairings. For 2 people at the end of the day (or meal, as it were) - we dropped $600 bucks at TDR. I think you could do the same sort of thing at Ame for no more than $400. Plus, at Ame, if you're eating alone, you could also sit at the sushi bar.

Have fun whatever you choose to do - and I look forward to hearing the results!

[Elrushbo]

For fine dining, without a doubt I'd choose Michael Mina, a stunning experience.

For the other, depends on taste. Delfina might work

[alanamoana]

PPS: I read about "Betelnut" very often - any opinions?

←

i ate there the other day on a whim...just happened to be driving by. in a previous life, i worked for the restaurant group of which betelnut is a member. i remember liking some of the recipes which i had to prepare that came from betelnut. i don't think their menu changes too terribly much. i think they prepare flavorful, decent food but i don't think it is incredible. i definitely enjoyed my meal and if you're looking for ethnic without the strangeness of some ethnic food then you should give it a try. lunch is probably more worth it than dinner.

[ulterior epicure]

I recently ate at The Dining Room. While I have to say that it was an equisute evening, I left thinking "is that all?" Seriously - the food is prepared with precision and care, but I felt it had it had no soul. The food didn't seem to "come from" anywhere, and for the money, I feel there are better alternatives.

As wacky as Ame's menu may seem at first blush, the food has a depth to it that you only realize by actually eating it. You won't see it from reading the menu and comparing it to TDR's; and the room at Ame is much more hip and avante garde than TDR (which is more like eating with your granparents, aunts and uncles). You could go to Ame and feel like you had fun - I don't think you could say the same about TDR...

Although I have not been to either, I can definitely see how this could be the case.

Plus, at Ame, if you're eating alone, you could also sit at the sushi bar.

Really? Do they serve sushi? Will they serve me food from the dining room at the bar?

Have fun whatever you choose to do - and I look forward to hearing the results!

To be sure, I'll be reporting back. Can anyone tell me which, if either is more conducive to public transport? Does the BART run down to Palo Alto yet? I'll probably be in the city that day without a car and really don't want to have to catch a cab back to P.A....

u.e.