Espresso machine for small restaurant

[Mussina]

Can anyone recommend an espresso machine for a small restaurant? We are trying very hard not to break the bank here and would also consider leasing if that made sense. I need something that would be easy for staff to operate and that produces a good cup of espresso (or god help me a cappuccino after dinner). It doesn't, however, have to be the perfect cup of joe just a good one.

Many thanks!

[MGLloyd]

Can you give us an idea of your price range? And bear in mind you also have to budget at least $ 250 for an espresso grinder. If you can also tell us what sort of volume (shots per day) you think you will be doing, that will also help.

[Mussina]

$250 for a grinder? Really? That was my price range for the entire machine to be honest. I am really trying to find a "starter" espresso machine that will produce a nice (doesn't need to be mind blowing) espresso. What is wrong with a Krups cheap grinder? If you grind the coffee long enough it will get very fine.

I am looking at maybe 20 cups of espresso a night max.

[slkinsey]

The general feeling is that the lowest-priced home machine/grinder setup of quality is the Rancilio Silvia/Rocky combination. That will cost you around $750 (~$500 for the machine and ~$250 for the grinder). I wouldn't use anything less in a restaurant setting, and even that will have serious limitations (e.g., you can't steam too many cappuccini in a row before it will lose power and need to heat back up, it is a single boiler design so you can't go directly between pulling the shot and steaming milk without a period of heat up or cool down time, etc.). If you can't spend more than $250 for an espresso machine, you're much, much better off simply trying to have a good regular coffee program. A $250 espresso setup won't just produce espresso that isn't mind blowing -- it will produce espresso that flat out sucks.

Espresso is one of those things that is fundamentally dependent on the quality of the equipment. A sufficiently skilled cook doesn't need great cookware. He can still produce a mind blowing piece of fish with crappy stainless cookware. This is to say that a $250 saute pan doesn't necessarily lead to better food than a $2.50 saute pan. On the other hand, not only is is impossible to produce good espresso with a $100 machine, it is also more or less the fact that a $1,500 setup will produce better espresso than a $750 setup, all other things being equal.

[MGLloyd]

Also entering into the equation is the issue of staff training and competence. Being a good barista is not rocket science, but it does require training and experience. If you are looking for an 'all-in-one' solution with a minimum of staff training and involvement, then perhaps you should investigate a superautomatic espresso machine. For most of these machines, all you do is push a button. The downside from your perspective may be cost: $ 500 up to 2300 or so. Another downside is the lack of being able to customize the end product, which may or may not be an issue for you. The other 'sticky wicket' for a superautomatic may be the life expectancy of these machines in a restaurant setting; this will heavily depend on how much it is used. Spending $ 1500-2000 for a semi-automatic and good grinder will provide better quality espresso and perhaps last a lot longer than a superautomatic.

A good place to start learning about superautomatics is here:

http://www.wholelattelove.com/superautomatic.cfm

If you have more questions or concerns, please post and we will try to help you.

[scubadoo97]

Can you tell us a little about your restaurant? What type of coffee drinks do you want to serve and how many espressos would you anticipate making in a short period of time? If a table of 4 all ordered espresso milk drinks, how quick could you pull them, steam the milk for the 4 drinks and get them to the table hot? This is a small number for a restaurant and something not easily done with even a good entry level prosumer single boiler machine.

[Taubear]

It doesn't, however, have to be the perfect cup of joe just a good one.

I never return to a place that serves average coffee.......there are plenty of places that serve average everything. I think it would be better to purchase or lease a better quailty machine and provide training to your staff. Customers will return to a place that serves a great coffee.

[phaelon56]

You've already received plenty of good advice. And yes - $250 - $350 is about how you have to spend on the grinder.

A $200 - $300 espresso machine in a restaurant is a pointless endeavor. It will be slow, messy, produce subpar drinks, do a poor job of steaming milk and also wear out in 6 - 12 months (perhaps not but chances are good that it will).

If you can't justify, afford or dedicate the time and resources to having a good fresh grinder and staff members trained to make decent espresso drinks (and they must have the TIME to do so even when the joint is jammin').... consider leasing a small one group commercial machine that is set up to use pods. Then find the asolute best quality and freshest pods you can get (there are better pods out there than the Illy brand).

Use pods... keep track of sales and profit... run the numbers after one year and then consider buying a machine. You'll spend $2,000 - $2500 for a decent but basic one group commercial machine. And allow about $200 per year for routine parts and maintenance (2 hours per year of professional tech maintenance at $60 per hour plus an average of $80 per year for parts). A good commercial machine, properly maintained, will outlast most restaurants.

And this past weekend I had an espresso at Thomas Keller's Bouchon Bakery in the Time-Warner Center at Colombus Circle in NYC. It was mediocre... and it was made with Illy pods. Even the best... so it seems.. just don't get it when it comes to quality espresso in restaurants.

And I went to Chez Panisse Cafe in Berkeley for lunch on my 50th birthday a few months ago. The coffee sucked.

[MGLloyd]

Absolutely amazing to me that you could go to Bouchon and Chez Panisse and get poor coffee. But then again, I have eaten in some four-star restaurants in which the coffee or espresso was not particularly good. I admit however, that I am a tough grader. Since I roast my own coffee at home and make my own espressos, it is hard for any commercial establishment to top me, at least a restaurant. I have been at some coffee shops that were better than me.

[phaelon56]

The espresso at Bouchon Bakery was just plain average at best - and I mean restaurant average - not good espresso bar average.

I did have espresso in NYC this weekend that was excellent - as good as what I can produce at home. Several were at 9th Street Espresso (who has their own espresso blend but I'm not sure where they source it).

The other shot, a double ristretto, was at Blue Spoon on Chambers Street. They're using Intelligentsia's Black Cat blend. I'd never tried Black Cat before but it was intriguing. I had a quick espresso and took a cup of drip coffee with me to drink on the street. Fifteen minutes later, halfway through the cup of drip coffee, I still had distinct flavor artifacts swirling on the back of my tongue from the Black Cat - truly amazing.

[TopoTail]

Can anyone recommend an espresso machine for a small restaurant?  We are trying very hard not to break the bank here and would also consider leasing if that made sense.  I need something that would be easy for staff to operate and that produces a good cup of espresso (or god help me a cappuccino after dinner). It doesn't, however, have to be the perfect cup of joe just a good one.

Many thanks!

←

As Owen has indicated, even the finest restaurants in the country serve mediocre espresso, and there are lots of reasons for that. The fact is that no matter what machine you were to buy, your espresso drinks would not be much good unless you hired and trained a dedicated barista who made all the coffee drinks at your restaurant, which is not a realistic option for 99% of the restaurants in the country.

So my advice is forget about espresso. Instead, get yourself a few French presses, find yourself an excellent coffee source, and offer your customers a coffee list with three choices, fresh ground and prepared to order. You can do this with minimal training and impress the hell out of your customers.

--Richard

[Richard Kilgore]

$250 for a grinder? Really?  That was my price range for the entire machine to be honest. I am really trying to find a "starter" espresso machine that will produce a nice (doesn't need to be mind blowing) espresso.  What is wrong with a Krups cheap grinder?  If you grind the coffee long enough it will get very fine.

I am looking at maybe 20 cups of espresso a night max.

←

Great coffee would be better than lousy espresso. You will still need a good burr grinder. $250 for a grinder and say 8 - 10 French presses, plus high quality, absolutely fresh and freshly ground beans. That's still about $500 for the equipment, but better than throwing away $250 and alienating your staff and customers, too. This will look classy, taste good, and require less training.

[Mussina]

I am curious what percentage of the population cares deeply/can tell the difference with coffee. I completely understand that there is a contingent that are really passionate about coffee/espresso but I don't personally know a single person that falls into this catagory. I make coffee with my lousy little $12.99 Krups grinder and my $25 coffee maker every morning and it is perfectly good. I use fresh beans and grind them every morning but that is about it. Anyone know how many coffee obsessives (in a nice way :-)) are out there?

Edited April 13, 2006 by Mussina (log)

[Mayhaw Man]

I live in a town full of them. Happily, as a general rule, we have pretty good to great coffee in most of our better restaurants and even in many of the middle of the road ones. New Orleans is a coffee town and has, historically, been one for a long time.

And to me, good coffee service is just another component of running a great place. Why have something substandard at the end of an otherwise great meal?

[rmockler]

I'm not obsessive, though have a housemate who's been in the biz for 20+ years so can surely tell the diff of good from bad, and have noticed that many people can, even if they're not aware they can. Mediocre stuff might go down ok/without complaints, but even people without obsessive palates will ooh and aah over the good stuff, properly presented. Aren't oohs and aahs one of your goals?

The french press idea seems absolutely brilliant to me, for what it's worth. Distinctive, delicious, inexpensive to set up and run.

[edited because I'm in the design biz and get my palates and palettes confused]

Edited April 13, 2006 by rmockler (log)

[Mayhaw Man]

The french press idea seems absolutely brilliant to me, for what it's worth. Distinctive, delicious, inexpensive to set up and run.

←

The french press idea is completely doable. John Besh at August in New Orleans handles his coffee service this way and I really like it-both the coffee and the service technique.

[slkinsey]

There are a few things here. . .

First off, as a general rule bad espresso is a lot worse than bad or indifferent coffee. This is why hardly anyone in America drinks espresso -- because 99.9% of it is too bad to qualify as swill.

Due to the overall bad quality of espresso, most Americans have trained themselves to drink cappuccino instead so that the milk serves to obscure the poor quality of the coffee. Unfortunately for people in Mussina's position, steaming power and longevity are two of the things that are affected most by cost. It's hard to find a machine that can steam, say, ten cappuccini in a row for under around fifteen hundred bucks.

Now, I do agree with the premise that many Americans are used to not-very-good coffee, and will tend to accept a mediocre cup without batting an eye. However, the American standard not-very-good cup tends to suffer mostly from being weak. A strong not-very-good coffee is harder to take than weak not-very-good coffee (another reason why no one in American drinks espresso).

That said, I do think many/most Americans do have an understanding and appreciation for when they have been served a really good cup of coffee. And since it's not rocket science to make one, why not do it? Coffee is often the last thing a customer will taste at a restaurant. A last chance to make an impression, if you will. Serving a great cup of French press coffee can go a long way towards creating satisfied customers and repeat business. Depending on the size of the restaurant, it might even make sense to purchase green beans and roast on a daily or weekly basis, for truly mindblowing coffee at practically zero extra cost once the lower price and decreased perishability of green beans is factored in.

[MGLloyd]

I perceive that up here in the Seattle area, many people care about coffee. And I also think the individual french press idea is great. Just don't plunge the pot for me after a minute of steeping; give me the pot and let me decide when to plunge it! I generally let my press pot at home steep for about four minutes or so.

[Mussina]

I perceive that up here in the Seattle area, many people care about coffee.  And I also think the individual french press idea is great.  Just don't plunge the pot for me after a minute of steeping; give me the pot and let me decide when to plunge it!  I generally let my press pot at home steep for about four minutes or so.

←

Thanks for all the feedback. I am really warming to the individual press idea and would love more information about how to roast coffee beans. You folks are the best!

[MGLloyd]

The single best website on coffee roasting is here: Sweet Marias

Edited April 15, 2006 by MGLloyd (log)

[Richard Kilgore]

I perceive that up here in the Seattle area, many people care about coffee.  And I also think the individual french press idea is great.  Just don't plunge the pot for me after a minute of steeping; give me the pot and let me decide when to plunge it!  I generally let my press pot at home steep for about four minutes or so.

←

Thanks for all the feedback. I am really warming to the individual press idea and would love more information about how to roast coffee beans. You folks are the best!

←

While Sweet Maria's is a great resource, I do not see you as someone who wants to spend a lot of time and effort on your coffee service. I think the additional roasting equipment and tweaking the roast may detract from the rest of your operation. So, how about starting out by using the best local roaster in your area. If they can assure you of a supply of beans that are two to four days from the roast date, they should be able to meet your needs. But you do need to grind them freshly yourself, using a good quality grinder, like the Rancilio Rocky, or better.

There is at least one informative thread here on French Press technique.

[Mussina]

All true but I am intrigued by the idea of roasting our own beans. We have an organic farm and we are converting a 250 year old barn on our property into the restaurant. As such, local and fresh are key for us and the idea of being able to say that the coffee is roasted on the premises is of interest. That said, our local roaster will create custom blends for us and roast them however we want which might be a way to go. Other than a hot water dispenser (which will be another $200 and a change order for our plumber) any other ideas about keeping 200 degree water ready to go? The coffee service area is in an alcove right outside of the kitchen. There is ready access to cold water (a water station) but no burners or the like (I was thinking that the coffee maker would do the job).

Thanks again everyone.

[Mussina]

Alternatively maybe I can convince Bond Girl to donate her $1300 espresso machine to our project

See post - http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=86154&st=30

[scubadoo97]

An espresso machine can double as a hot water dispenser if you're not in a hurry.

I can tell you home roasting is not something you want to undertake at this time. You will have too many things to get right in a restaurant that the last thing you need to worry about is home roasting. If you have a local roaster that will roast fresh for you and you can offer organic fair trade coffees that would fit in with your organic farm conversion to restaurant. I too think the french press idea would be a nice touch with good fresh beans of course.

When you think about it, the people that are out there drinking 12 oz flavored lattes with whipped cream are not really into coffee anyway. I've seen in several coffee/espresso shops the Batista, and I use that term loosely here, pull dozens of shots one after another to fill a pitcher that will be used to make milk based coffee drinks for the day.

[phaelon56]

Alternatively maybe I can convince Bond Girl to donate her $1300 espresso machine to our project 

I know the statement was made in jest but it's worth noting that piston lever style machines are totally unsuitable for a commercial environment where more thana few drinks are produced in any given hour.

Piston lever machiens have a certain "window of opportunity after they're warmed up and can deliver several great (even stellar) shots within that time period. But then they get a bit too hot and have to be cooled off before you can regain that optimal window.

One of the better cappuccino's I ever had in a restaurant was made with a piston lever machine but it was at a little Italian beach cafe in Central America where drink volume was very low. The owner, a native of Milan, had lots of experinece on such machines. And his shrimp seviche totally rocked.