Tony's Wine Warehouse in Dallas

[Rebel Rose]

Dallas Observer: Sour Grapes

Oh. . . My. . . God.

Alcohol, he says, is not the cause of hangovers; it's the extra things producers, specifically large American producers, blend into their wines.

Well now, for Texans that just maht be trew.

Edited to fix link to the first page of the article. Be sure to read all 8 pages!

I see a new sales pitch in my future . . .

"Do you see this harmless looking egg? And this bottle of fine Dover Canyon old vine zinfandel? This zinfandel has less sulfur (which as you know, is a dangerous chemical) than this itty bitty egg. That's why it's so expensive!"

[Mayhaw Man]

That's a really, really good story. Thanks for finding it.

[liamdc]

My father once told me a joke about a Texan of large girth who had a massive heart attack while on vacation in Hawaii. Only problem was they didn't have a large enough coffin in which to ship him back to Texas. So they administered an enima and sent him home in a shoebox. As was that Texan, so is this guy.

It is appalling that he takes advantage of those new to wine in this way. Such misinformation and price gouging! But I imagine that a small percentage of his customers walk away happy that they scored some "expensive" wine.

[Richard Kilgore]

Thanks for posting this, Mary. This fine article was written by Mark Stuertz.

[cdh]

Wow! Just imagine if those guys got their hands on some snake oil!

[JohnL]

Dallas Observer:  Sour Grapes

Oh. . .  My. . .  God.

   

Alcohol, he says, is not the cause of hangovers; it's the extra things producers, specifically large American producers, blend into their wines.

Well now, for Texans that just maht be trew.

I see a new sales pitch in my future . . .

"Do you see this harmless looking egg? And this bottle of fine Dover Canyon old vine zinfandel? This zinfandel has less sulfur (which as you know, is a dangerous chemical) than this itty bitty egg. That's why it's so expensive!"

←

I must say, I was stunned and appalled.

I kept thinking of "Rudy" the salesman in "Used Cars."

There are two significant problems with what is happening here:

One-- The customers of Tony's Warehouse are not buying wine they are buying Tony's philosophy. They relate to Tony's not the wine they buy.

In today's market there are two avenues for retailers--one is to establish a relationship with consumers who become loyal customers--these retailers usually charge more for their products and offer more "service."

The other direction is based on low prices and volume and usually involves little on the "service" side. This is the trade off.

It seems to me that the answer to Tony's very shady tactics is for aggressive retailers to compete via truth and lower prices (realistic). Without mentioning Tony's --competitors need to advertise what they offer.

Unfortunately, because Tony's customers are more a "cult" --any message that "attacks" Tony's will be ignored. "Who cares about lower prices and the truth--I believe in Tony's."

Two:

Tony's gets away with this shady stuff (If the appropriate authorities were motivated enough--there is a good chance Tony's could be shut down).

because of the sorry state of wine in the world. Consumers have always been bewildered by wine. They have relied upon the trade and the truth is, the wine trade is largely responsible for this confusion. The trade itself has relied on mysticism and argy bargy to sell their wines.

Just look at labels--anyone read a European wine label lately?

For years the wine press was populated by writers who sold the mysticism of wine--they collaborated with the winemakers in perpetuating the mass confusion.

try explaining for eg, why a bottle of wine from, say, Lafitte Rothschild costs two or three times more than a bottle of another Bordeaux maker from the same vintage yet the wine from Lafitte may or may not be "better" than the "lesser" ranked wine.

Enough to make a novice's eyes glaze over! Who does one trust?

No wonder people will buy into Tony's B.S. He's selling a "counterpoint" to the B.S the trade has been offering.

I believe that more and more winemakers and writers and critics are realizing that to survive and sell wine--wine has to be demystified. It is why the EU is seriously rethinking their system of AOC's and labeling laws. It is why New World producers are putting the origin of grapes on their labels.

Most importantly the wine press and critics are telling the truth about wines--that is poorly made wines are pointed out, not excused by mumbo jumbo about terror or,flippant statements like--" well if you don't like this wine, it is because you just don't get it."

I have seen more and more retailers holding in store tastings and cleaning up their shelves and signage making buying wine easier and maybe even fun. There is also a boom in wine education with tasting groups and courses at all levels. And winemakers are doing much more toward this end. The folks, noted in the article, who are attempting to get restaurants to charge less for their wines are to be commended.

In the end, one can see a day when the shifty operators like Tony's are few and far between (I really believe that Tony's is an aberation, maybe the worst of a bad lot--hopefully).

And kudos to the Dallas observer and a very good writer/reporter for a well written piece of consumerist journalism!

[Bill Miller]

This guy and Pat Robertson would be a scary pair. I'll bet they could come up with "Rapture" wine and try to sell it in Dover, Pa.

Edited November 15, 2005 by Bill Miller (log)

[FoodMan]

What a fantastic piece of reporting, well researched and documented and not likely to be retracted! I was stunned to say the least by this whole operation. How can peole not tell they are being manipulated a la used car lot? the whole segment about

As he poured a sample of Poppy Hill Cabernet Sauvignon from California, a man slipped from behind the counter and left the store. The salesman paused and smiled. "Now that he's gone, I can do something about the prices," he said. He pulled out a sheet. "Now that he's gone, this is what I can show you. The normal prices are these." He pointed to a column on the left. "I can do it for those prices." He pointed to a column of much lower prices on the right. "But I couldn't...do it until he was gone, because he's the owner...So I can do you better prices on things. So I was doing it kind of half-heartedly with you."

Just stinks and would make me run for the door and the nearest Spec's in Houston.

I am not wine expert but I consider myself fairly intelligent so reading these two comments

"The tree that produces this barrel grows up against every black and white truffle in the world," he explains. "When you cut this tree down, the tree has been feeding off these mushrooms for centuries. And when you cut the tree down, all of the oil that's in these truffles is inherently in this oak." "The tree that produces this barrel grows up against every black and white truffle in the world," he explains. "When you cut this tree down, the tree has been feeding off these mushrooms for centuries. And when you cut the tree down, all of the oil that's in these truffles is inherently in this oak."

Typically, a single 50-gallon French oak barrel costs between $35,000 and $65,000, Winkler says. Burnt American oak barrels carry a $30,000 price tag

the first thought that comes to mind is HOGWASH! I do not need an expert to tell me that "The tree that produces this barrel grows up against every black and white truffle in the world" so the wood is somehow infused is utter bull crap.

...wines without chemicals? yeah right. Dallasites really need to wake up and avoid this joint like the plague.

Sorry I am not as eloquent as JohnL, but I agree with everything he said.

[Rebel Rose]

Here's one of my favorites:

One of the most consistently circulated Tony's myths concerns "deep root wines," or the claim that vines with deep roots (up to 10,000 feet deep, according to Winkler) produce superior wines.

So gee, that would mean (finger in dimple) that these five foot vines have roots two miles deep! Wow. I wonder how the geologists figure that out.

[FoodMan]

Here's one of my favorites:

One of the most consistently circulated Tony's myths concerns "deep root wines," or the claim that vines with deep roots (up to 10,000 feet deep, according to Winkler) produce superior wines.

So gee, that would mean (finger in dimple) that these five foot vines have roots two miles deep! Wow. I wonder how the geologists figure that out.

←

Well, Superman tells them of course!

I'd be interested in learning if Mr. Winkler or any other "instructor" has any actual credential besides reading all the books there are about wine like he claims. A Google search returned nothing. For all we know they might be regular shmoes who took a course in public speach and are simply selling what Tony's has to offer.

[Rebel Rose]

Hmm. Correct you are, Elie. I hadn't thought of Googling for more info. At Wineguy.org, they report attending a class and provide the list of wines:

Wine                                                      Bottle/Net by Case

1.  Louis Palais/Champagne "Cuvee Extraordinare" (Deep Roots)          $34.95/$17.48

2.  Cristal Extra Dry/Champagne (Noble Cuvee - King Alfonso XIII      $29.95/$17.47

3.  Marwood "Select"/Champagne (Cuvee for Italian Market)              $25.95/$18.71

4.  Domaine La Terre "Grand"/Chardonnay 2001                                $23.95/$12.98

5.  Silver Ridge/Chardonnay " Exceptionnel" (Deep Roots) 2001              $34.95/$23.95

6.  McGuigan/Chardonnay "Black Label" 2000 (First Crush)                    $34.95/19.97

7.  Oliven Lane/Chardonnay "Hors Concours" 2000                                $49.95/$26.68

8.  Baron Monchhof 2002 "Hors Concours" (Deep Roots)                        $34.95/$23.27

9.  Salmon Creek White Zinfandel "Hours Concours" 2002                      $25.95/$14.95

10. Hans Beehmer Spatlese "Exceptionnel" (Very Deep Roots) 1999          $29.95/$19.97

11.  Marquis Des Reys/Champagne a la Peche                                        $37.95/$29.96

12.  McGuigan "Gold Medal"/Merlot Reserve 2001 (First Crush)              $29.95/$19.98

13. McGuigan/Shiraz Black Label "Hors Concours" 2001 (First Crush)    $34.95/$23.31

14. Baron de L' Allouette/L.A. Merlot "Exceptionnel" 2000                      $29.95/$17.97

15. Silver Ridge/Merlot (First crush) "Exceptionnel" 2001                        $34.95/$23.31

16. Clay Station/Shiraz "Extraordinaire"                                                  $39.95/$24.63

17. Poppy Hill/"Grand" Cabernet 2000                                                    $39.95/$19.98

18. Silver Ridge/Cabernet (First Crush) "Exceptionnel"(Deep Roots)2000  $34.95/$23.30

19. Baron de Rothschild-Lafite/Chateau Paradis/Bordeaux 2001                $39.95/$33.29

20. Cloverdale Ranch/Merlot"hors Concours" 2000 Alexander Valley        $49.95/$33.30

21. Marwood/Merlot Ruby Champagne "Extraordinaire"                            $27.95/$29.96

And their review blurb actually says:

Tony's WWGR is a professional Wine Merchant specializing in Wine from Small Boutique

Wineries.  They advertise; their wines are chemical free wines.  Which means no

headaches, allergies or harmful reactions (if consumed in a reasonable manner).

[FoodMan]

Wow! note all the "Deep Roots" . I wonder how many miles difference it is between Deep and Very Deep.

[Rebel Rose]

Hey, you're the Texan. You should know.

[Brad Ballinger]

What's with the "hors concours" designation, which translated means "out of competition"?

And, just for kicks:

Baron Cristal Extra Dry - $5.99 (is someone going to think this is Roederer Cristal?)

Marwood Select Spumante - $5.99 (it's Spumante, not Champagne -- cuvee for the Italina market indeed)

La Terre Chardonnay - $12.00 bottle price in restaurants (it's not Domaine La Terre; La Terre is a brand of Canadaigua that is primarily a restaurant glass pour)

Silver Ridge Chardonnay - $8.99

McGuigan "Black Label" Chardonnay - $7.99

Olivet Lane Chardonnay - $14.99

Monchhof Estate Riesling - $13.99

Salmon Creek White Zinfandel - $6.99 (and what would hors concours mean for White Zin?)

McGuigan Merlot - $7.99 (there is no "gold medal" designate merlot from McGuigan -- maybe the wine won a gold medal at an easy competition)

McGuigan "Black Label" Shiraz - $7.99

Domaine du Vieux Parc "L'Alouette" - $8.99 (this has to be the Baron de L'Alouette listed)

Silver Ridge Merlot - $8.99

Clay Station Shiraz - $12.99

Poppy Hill Cabernet Sauvignon - $9.99 (I have no idea where the "grand" fits in)

Silver Ridge Cabernet Sauvignon - $8.99

Chateau Paradis, Cassuil Bordeaux - $17.99

Cloverdale Ranch Merlot - $16.99

Marwood Ruby Spumante - $5.99

There is a Louis Palais "methode traditonelle" (i.e. not technically Champagne) but I couldn't find a price, I'm sure Hans Beehmer is a typo (just as Oliven Lane was). I have no idea about Marquis des Reys/Champagne a la Peche (there's simply got to be something else more recognizeable but not as uppity sounding on the label).

[LindaJ]

Best quote from that article regarding their sales practices:

Would we have 83,000 customers if all of those things were being done? I mean, some of those people would be real dumb to buy from us.

Indeed they would be.

[Mayhaw Man]

I am not wine expert but I consider myself fairly intelligent so reading these two comments

Typically, a single 50-gallon French oak barrel costs between $35,000 and $65,000, Winkler says. Burnt American oak barrels carry a $30,000 price tag

←

Actually, with a little shopping, aged wood French oak bbls can generally be had for under $1000 and generally around $850. Of course, the price goes down with the volume of bbls purchased. Container loads lower the price quite a bit.

These guys give used car salesmen and carnival barkers a bad name.

[Rebel Rose]

Yes, and all barrels may be charred inside, French, American, Baltic, whatever. A winemaker can order light, medium, or heavy toast, and with or without toasted heads. Furthermore the "winery workers" do not "jump in the barrels" and burn them. The cooperage firms that produce the barrels carefully and evenly char them over an open flame.

And what's with all these claims of "chemicals" in American wines? What chemicals, oh wise ones? Sulphur? I thought that was a mineral. Copper? A mineral. And the U.S. has arguably the tightest controls on wine additions. Australians can include four times as much copper sulfate in their wines as American producers.

These guys are really doing a disservice to their customers, aside from the 4x price gouging. (Thanks for looking up those prices, Brad!) Their newly "educated" customers are going to speak up at a business dinner and embarrass themselves royally.

[Craig Camp]

It is rather ironic that the great State of Texas, which makes wine producers jump through all sorts of hoops and paperwork to sell wine in their state in order to protect consumers, can turn a blind eye to such out-and-out fraud.

[JohnL]

My first response to this was YEOW!

These folks ought to be jailed!

However the more I think about this, and being the curmudgeonly iconoclast that I am:

(I have given up in my attempt to be an "International raconteur and Bon Vivant")

what these guys are doing is a bit of ole snake oil sellin.

take the deep roots claim--I believe a lot of enologists would hold that the depth of the vine root system can often be a factor in the quality of the grapes in producing wine.

so ok--Tony's is jess stretchin it a mite.

as for the headaches claim--well there is a lot of confusion among the experts out there just what is the problem--additives, sulphites, mercaptains and on and on--and Tony is just clearin things up a bit -- for us good ole church (or synagogue) goin folks.

see where i am goin?!

Just before I got on line with all you good people--i deleted perhaps fifty or so emails from real fine folks just like Tony--tryin to make my life a bit better.

all sorts of creams, lotions and other items (if y'all catch my drift).

Last night i watched a commercial about how'n this here cologne will guarantee that some real purty girls will be wantin me to take em to dinner!

Yes Tony's is a particularly egregious example--but again--he's not really selling wine. he is selling Tony--security (yes a false security--but we are talking about wine not an automobile).

He's selling good old time wine religion.

Don't we all attribute some pretty amazing attributes to wine?

Look at some of the tasting notes out there!

A California cabernet was once described as "liquid viagra." and how often do we see "Feminine or masculine" used to describe what is in essence an non gendered item.

High markups?

outrageous profit margins--well there are wines on the internet right now that were released just last year at original prices one tenth of what they are offered for now.

Isn't it true that an objects real worth is what people are willing to pay for it?

Look at what the current price for say--Romanee Conti or Screaming Eagle is.

(it's not just wine--try shopping for a Van Gogh--better yet i saw a painting in a gallery that was a pure white canvass-- yours (certainly not mine) for a few thousand dollars.)

How many times have we seen wine describes as "art in a bottle?"

so in the end--if Tony sells hapiness and a belief that one is getting a good deal--so ok maybe he exagerates--but just how bad is he?

what exactly is the crime and how much time should we give him?

and before we answerlet's take an inventory:

how many have bought or were tempted to buy a:

Ginsu Knife set or a Bamboo steamer?

or why we own or want to own an expensive exotic car (that breaks down a lot and costs a ton to repair)?

Edited November 18, 2005 by JohnL (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

John,

A couple of brief comments.

Tony's stretches everything, and more than a mite. That's the "crime" in it. As for the headaches thing, what causes most wine-induced headaches (other than overconsumption is histamines, which occure naturally).

And with respect to the pricing, no one is saying they can't charge what they want. Heck, I'm a big "whatever the market will bear" guy. The issue is with how they choose to defend their comparatively high prices -- which leads back to the s t r e t c h i n g. Deep roots, first run, limited supply of old (i.e. over the hill) vintage, etc.

[JohnL]

John,

A couple of brief comments.

Tony's stretches everything, and more than a mite.  That's the "crime" in it.  As for the headaches thing, what causes most wine-induced headaches (other than overconsumption is histamines, which occure naturally).

And with respect to the pricing, no one is saying they can't charge what they want.  Heck, I'm a big "whatever the market will bear" guy.  The issue is with how they choose to defend their comparatively high prices -- which leads back to the s t r e t c h i n g.  Deep roots, first run, limited supply of old (i.e. over the hill) vintage, etc.

←

Well I am funnin ya a bit!

Really though--

while I do agree with you--you are certainly reasonable IMOP--you have to admit

that wine is certainly an "ethereal" product.

there's "stretching" going on all the time. the sizzle is sold at all levels by lots of people in the business.

Tony's is crossing the line--I have no doubt about that.

but what we would call deceptive advertising claims etc usually take an element of truth--like

wine can age well--"no drop is sold before its time"--and exagerate from there. tony is just using that conventional wisdom and using it to move some old inventory etc.

we could have an endless thread debating ageing of wine and what differentiates well aged wine from over the hill stuff.

as for the headaches issue--there is even a lot of debate here.

Marion Burros once did a piece I have somewhere that quotes a doctor Freitag of the Diamond headache clinic in Chicago: "no one really knows what causes this type (red wine) headache."

a number of possibilities are discussed.

"stuff" is sometimes put into wine--and isn't Tony taking a point of view held by the promoters of organic wines?

aren't they also trying to sell inventory?

Isn't Nicholas Joly often spoken of as a crusader or a fanatic or a visionary for organic winemaking? (kinda religious terms).

There's a lot of gray area here. Sure--I believe that Joly is "honest" (he may wacky or brilliant) and tony is intentionally being deceptive--that's the difference as I see it.

It may be that Tony is over the line in the area of intent--that is he knows better but.....

Intent is awful hard to prove in a court of law though.

I can imagine the trial--Tony represented by one of those lawyers from one of those expert panels we see on cable news all the time.

OJ and MJ got off--I wouldn't bet against Tony!

[FoodMan]

John-

Even the reporter said that what Tony's is doing might not be "illegal". Unless the store names specific wines as having Asbestos in them, then those wines cannot sue. If it does though, I am sure it can be held liable.

What it boils down is to this

and tony is intentionally being deceptive--that's the difference as I see it.

Just like a used car saleman will tell you almost anything to sell a car. Unless you have a very good case, you really cannot sue in a court of law. Tony's sells people plain old table wine for very high prices. The customers believe they are getting a good deal apparently. Then the owner claims that he is not responsible for the hogwash sales pitch that his "instructors" are giving.

[davebr]

When I travel to Dallas there is an appartment I stay in that is 2 blocks from Tony's. We drink ALOT of wine when we travel. The first time I went to Tony's, they had a section of wines that were only "restaurant allocated" wines(Silver Oak, Shafer, Dominus,ect...). Needless to say, the prices were absurd! The guy behind the counter told me, these wines were only to be sold to restaurants--according to the state liquor law. Since they have a small cafe, they could sell the wine for retail but to keep from getting in trouble with the liquor board, they had to sell them at "restaurant" prices.

I laughed in his face and I have never returned.

5 or 6 bottles into the day we get desperate for more wine, but we still travel across town to Pogos instead of going to Tony's.

[Brad Ballinger]

The first time I went to Tony's, they had a section of wines that were only "restaurant allocated" wines(Silver Oak, Shafer, Dominus,ect...).  Needless to say, the prices were absurd!  The guy behind the counter told me, these wines were only to be sold to restaurants--according to the state liquor law.

←

Well, I claim ignorance when it comes to Texas distribution laws, but that sounds like hooey to me. You can get Dominus at Costco, and many retailers have Silver Oak on their shelves nowadays. And with some effort, Shafer can also be found.

[Rebel Rose]

I would just love to attend one of those classes and be a problem child. Wouldn't you?