Rational Combi Ovens

[ducphat30]

I have a large rational combi oven in my kitchen, and during a deep cleaning last night, the glass on the inside shattered.

The person cleaning it said that when he opened the door, he heard a pop and then it shattered into a ton of pieces. Normally, I'd become more gestapo-esque in the questioning, but he is not the first person it has happened to. The person who services our equipment had the same thing happen to him maybe a year ago.

My question is had anyone else had any experiences like this with their rationals?

Other aspects I am exploring are:

Is the oven truly level? although it does have adjustable gaskets.

Is it in the seal?

Was it a case of abuse?

Any feedback you have I would appreciate it, this piece of equipment is a workhorse for us and I want to get it back on track as soon as possible without any future episodes.

ducphat30

[nathanm]

I have a pair of these ovens for several years, and I know some other people who have them but I have not heard of this.

The innermost glass is hinged and unclips from the door so you can clean it. I assume that this is the piece you mean, rather than the outer glass that is part of the door. I believe it is made of tempered glass. When tempered glass breaks it always shatters into tiny pieces.

When you say deep cleaning, do you mean with the self-cleaning program, or by hand?

My guess, and only that, is that the glass was banged or damaged at one point and that lead to a problem where it finally let go. I have had that happen with tempered glass before in other contexts - all of sudden, with little or no provocation it shatters.

It should be easy to fix - because the glass is hinged it is is easy to replace.

Nathan

[rooftop1000]

I have only had this happen to a Gas BBQ grill. The window shattered while rehating some ribs...thankfully wrapped in alot of aluminum foil

t

[ducphat30]

It should be easy to fix - because the glass is hinged it is is easy to replace.

$2000 easy. It was just over a $1000 for the glass plus "labor" from an "authorized service dealer".

We use the self cleaning program daily, but for deep cleaning we do remove the glass (tempered) and clean the whole piece. The gents that I have working on it are rather diligent and very careful. We are not using the oven more/less over the past 4 years, if anything we have eliminated the elements that were more abusive (read apethetic cooks), and our "baby" is much better taken care of now. I just found it very wierd.

I am in contact with Rational and they are going to send their people to take a look to make sure that nothing is faulty and everything is properly assembled because it has also been taken apart a couple of times to be completely de-limed.

I'll keep you informed about the results.

ducphat30

[nathanm]

Wow, that is a pretty expensive piece of glass. Which size oven, and what model?

I have two of the Combi Plus CPC-61E. I am thinking about upgrading to the new SCC-61E.

It is ashame that there isn't more information about Rational ovens. There is quite a bit you can do with programming etc. The documentation only scratches the surface. The trouble is Rational does not seem to have a bulletin board on its site, and I don't think there are enough people on eGullet that have them.

[andiesenji]

I lost one of the inner windows in my Blodgett soon after it was installed. The technician said that it was probably from a tiny scratch on the surface from the doors closing against something that was not all the way inside the oven - for instance the rough edge on a crockery baking dish which will scratch glass (and the surface of ceramic tile).

He found a couple of tiny scratches on the remaining window so I had both replaced.

This is a steam oven and after the new windows were installed he place the scratched window on a rack, fired up the oven to 500, set the steam for 20 seconds. 5 minutes after the cycle ended he opened the door abruptly and the glass popped and crumbled into a pile of small pieces on the bottom of the oven.

He said that any break in the integrity of the surface, including scratches from scrubbing with an abrasive, will weaken the surface tension of tempered glass.

He said to use only non abrasive cleansers. The glass in the doors now has survived for 10 years with no problems.

[jsolomon]

From what you're saying, this sounds to me like it was thermal stress or thermal shock that caused the glass to break.

The kicker is, if your glass is stressed, it could be stressed for a long time without you knowing it. Then, it just takes one insult and... glass confetti. It's possible the person opened the door too quickly, or someone bashed a corner of the door and the glass couldn't take it any more.

But, I'm relatively certain that it was just a question of when. At the time it happened, your glass likely wasn't long for this world.

I'm definitely with andiesenji on the non-abrasive cleaners. Not insulting your glass when you clean it is definitely something to keep in mind. Although, with how much it cost to replace, I'm certain that you take due care.

[MikeMac]

On looking at higher end home ovens and comparing them to Rational combi oven yes the Rational is more money but you seem to get so much more for your money.

Anyone have any Experence in this area ?

How big of a steam hood do I need?

[Judy Wilson]

Hi Mikemac,

We go over this in Modernist Cuisine at Home. Here's a snippet from that section:

"Consumer-grade combi ovens differ from their professional counterparts in a few ways: they are less precise and powerful, and they have narrower temperature ranges, so they can't do high-temperature roasting or oven frying. But these modern ovens still vastly out-perform conventional ovens in both accuracy and versatility."

So, that's something to think about when shopping around!

Judy

[MikeMac]

thank you very much Judy.

We are getting a Rational but we can only put in the 61E 240 volt single phase - the Rational web site to be polite is "challenging"

http://www.rational-online.com/en_ca/company/index.html

Very difficult to get information out of they want you to go through their dealer base.

Another great resource is the local Rational reps are real chefs who have actually used the units and have great advice.

We would not be making this investment in time and money if it was not for Modernist Cuisine !!!

The big problem is 3 phase power in a residential environment very expensive to get into an existing house and hard to get to the site. I checked both with my insurance company and the building inspector insurance company said no issue and the building inspector only said we had to maintain the manufactures recommended clearances. Their are different standards for ovens and stoves with a commercial stove we would need a engineered make up air and exhaust lot more money and confusion.

Getting enough gas and venting into a residential kitchen to handle the gas version is another problem. Plus I believe that Gas will require more maintenance long term.

Now if I could only figure out how to calculate the operating costs on the Rational Vs a regular oven.

[Anonymous Modernist 10376]

Hi I sell commercial catering equipment and have asked Rational on a number of occasions about a domestic version... but they simply don't seem interested..... A real shame because this is the ultimate in cooking machines! So totally different from anything else in the t Commercial catering field. It is being able to create an oven "enviroment" dry or steam or any combiantion of the two which is so difficult to re create at home. Unless you have a very large home enviroment .... because of the size of even the smallest ovens.... some method of extracting steam...... the previous comments re three phase is not strictly true the smaller 6 grid rational is available as a single phase unit. Much more a possibility with similar features is the MKN Junior

Thanks

Martin Lee

Cater-Data

www.cater-data.co.uk

sales@cater-data.co.uk

[MikeMac]

Martin you are right on the money at first I thought the 61 was too small hence started looking at the 3 phase route. But the 3 phase route is just too expensive and too invasive for a home.

So we settled on a 61 electric now we are looking into the correct hood. And I know my next question will be if we already have a hood what would happen if we went to a 101 Gas? the larger ovens are just too deep to fit in a non commercial kitchen the was not designed for it from the ground up - and the price gets insane.

I think electric would be easyier to maintain long term but the gas has more horse power and may be cheaper to run?

[Anonymous Modernist 10720]

We have the model 61. It is wonderful. Better than any other home equipment purchase we have ever made. I don't think you could ever need a bigger oven for the home. Made 12 dozen cookies, six trays at a time. All perfect in the self cooking mode. Pay the extra money and get the sous vide setup. The hood that they sell for the oven is the way to go. I hope this encourages you to move forward with your cooking!

[MikeMac]

Thank you for the advice on the Sous Vide set up we were not going to get that option last after your comments I think we well

[Anonymous Modernist 11980]

Yeah thanks for all the info, that's helped me greatly.

[Anonymous Modernist 11980]

Yeah thanks for all the info, that's helped me greatly.

[MikeMac]

Ok we have gone through the electric thing and it looks good now they are suggesting the bit larger gas unit . twice the interior volume but gas not electric powered .

I always felt electric was simpler and less long term problems but I am now told gas is better long term.

Comments please!!

[MikeMac]

HAPPY DAYS

Looks like we are going ahead with a gas 101 very frustrating experience its now down to the size of the hood needed and the CFM Needed to exhaust

[MikeMac]

We have torn out our kitchen and are doing the prep for the rational oven we have a gas 101 sitting in the garage waiting for the rest of the kitchen. We've had great support the local rational chef rep our biggest issue has been figuring out the ventilation as putting a commercial oven in a home doesn't seem to fit in any codebook. What makes it worse is it a modern oven that does not produce anywhere near the BTUs or hot surfaces as a conventional commercial oven.

This is pretty amazing the reads of this topic are over 5000 now so I believe what I've been telling the manufacturer and the supporting companies is that there is a big market for this in homes.

The proof is in the pudding and we hope to have the oven up and running within a few weeks

[Anonymous Modernist 310]

Thank you for the update Mike,

Keep us informed how it work out. I'll contnue to dream about my next oven! ;-)

[MikeMac]

The purchase of the oven is just where it starts I'm very impressed with the customized "Gastronorm" which I assume is German for the customized pans suggested for use with the oven.

Commercial pan sizing actually make sense a standard one GN pan is 12 inches by 20 inches which just happens to be the largest pan but sits on one rack of the oven.

When I compare the prices of the rational hands and racks to what I would normally pay for pots and pans I think they're good value.

In purchasing the oven it was strongly suggested that I also purchase the rational base for the oven. I'm very happy that I did the quality of the base is amazing and really completes the oven.

I went for the base on wheels, not because I plan on moving around much but simply to save kitchen space so we could pull it out to service it.

[Anonymous Modernist 310]

Thanks for the update Mike,

Good to see some interesting posts on this forum. Show us some pictures of your baby once you're finished!

Louis-Frederic

[MikeMac]

We have the Rational Oven installed and I could not be happier the oven is so good it's scary. It cooks really fast and it does a great job. The Rational Company itself does not recommend the use of the oven in a home environment but once you get over that hurdle the service supplied by the company is exceptional.

Despite the great food it turns out the oven reduced my wife to tears.

She saw it during the self-cleaning process that has it look more like a washing machine than an oven. Seriously during the cleaning process it blows suds all around the inside in the oven comes out perfectly clean looking new. Then the display start showing little sparkles. Amazing.

Maybe we should call it kitchen TV.

[MikeMac]

Rational a month all in.

I could not be happier with the Oven I do not use my stove top at all.

I get consistently great results and its easy.

Rational is an amazing company to deal with they answer all my silly questions with out making me feel silly. I don't think the Rational would come together without the professionalism and handholding from the area rep Kevin. And the nice thing is now that they got my money the service is still first-class on shows no signs of changing.

The CaptiveAire Vent system (Josh) is amazing quiet and automatic it works off two separate thermostats and if the one in the hood is 6 degrees higher than the outside ceiling it turns on. It came in cheaper than a high end residential version and the only negative is we have a huge fan on the side of the house. - but its quieter than the DCS vent we have on the stovetop.

The local (Calgary) trades have been first class as well Modern Metal (Brad) for the stainless, sinks etc Hendrix (Anton) for the Rational and CapitiveAire if you ever talk to Anton ask him about his license plate. Stat Climate Control (Sean) for installing the CapitiveAire and the necessary ducting. Old Country Hardwood Flooring ( Dave) for the hardwood and Polstar Contracting for the tile work. Byron's Plumbing (Byron) for the gas and plumbing work. And Calgary Interior Systems Led (Ralph) for the drywall work.

Our General was a guy named Matthew Kane who just started BMC Builder's he was great to work with and fast - I think he did the Demo in one day cost effective and kept the job moving along.

Amazing Trades

Our kitchen designer was great Erin McPherson from Ekko Cabinetry Ltd. not only is she a great person she kept peace between my self and my dear wife during the whole process and her husband (boy toy) is a professional chef with his own highly recommended restaurant here in Calgary Bistro 2210. Rob runs the install side of Ekko and he put one of his installers Stan on our job could not have turned out better. They really care and they get it right.

Its busy in Calgary and all these trades went out of their way to ensure things were done and done well. I

The only fly in the ointment was the solid surface - we dealt with a firm called Fine Lines they held our job up for 12 weeks due to poor planning and their idea of compensation was $400.00 they had no understanding of what it was like to not have a kitchen for and extra 12 weeks. But I guess we can not have everything perfect.

I have paid all the trades other than a few holdbacks, I have no financial interest in any of the firms mentioned nor am I being paid by them in any way whatsoever. But with the local firms if you're looking to do something different and nice these guys are all first-class. Hendrix, Rational and CaptiveAire are all national/international firms.

[MikeMac]

Pictures of install