Fine Dining in Texas

[joiei]

In another thread, we had a brief and helpful discussion on fine dining. Here is some of the questions I had posed.

what do you look for when your dining out that is not done correctly? Just curious so we (American Fine Dining Chefs) can try to meet your expectations. What do you look for in a restaurant? Who are you comparing the American chefs to?? I really am curious.

BigboyDan had some very positive answers for me, but I was curious what other guidelines people use when dining out, especially in Texas. HOw do you define fine dining? What do fine dining chefs need to consider when planning a menu? Is fine dining in Texas different than fine dining in say Chicago, or Paris? Should regional differences be considered or should they all be held to the same level. What should that level be and how do you decide that? Is fine dining in DFW different that fine dining in Houston or San Antonio? Would it be possible or unimaginable to find fine dining in say Odessa or Wichita Falls or Corpus Christi?

Edited June 29, 2005 by joiei (log)

[Mnehrling]

  Would it be possible or unimaginable to find fine dining in say Odessa or Wichita Falls or Corpus Christi?

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Some smaller towns here in Texas have little gems of what I would consider fine dining. (My rule is if it reminds me of top of the line Nawlins or San Fran then it is fine dining..) Ususally these small to mid size town restaurants are a labor of love. One of my favorites that has been featured in Southern Living twice so far is Cafe Barons in Longview. This is a small bistro style restaurant tucked in the back of a bookstore that produces some amazing high end food that reminds me of Bacco in Nawlins.

I've found similar gems in Lubbock, Lufkin, Waco.. heck, even the tiny towns like Gladewater and Jefferson.

Just like large cities though, you should always watch out for 'self proclaimed' fine dining. The two worst restaurants I've even eaten at were 'highly rated' fine dining.. The worst has to be The Mansion on the Hill in Tyler. I believe the only reason they are rated high is that it is only visited by people with no palate but judge food by how much they spend. They figure, if they pop down $150 for a meal for two, it must be fine dining...

::Ramble Off::

[SuperLuckyCat]

We feel like it is fine dining if the setting is elegant, not filled with loud families or parties (esp. if the place makes one think twice before bringing children).

I can't feel like I am in a restaurant that is being tested for a chain or about to be bought by Landrys (with a couple of exceptions).

The service has to be unobtrusive, not folksy, but can read the customers to vary level of interaction.

The menu has to have some dishes that I can't make at home. Uncreative cliched dishes like creme brulee or fried calamari makes me feel like it is not a treat.

Picky stuff: The menu can't be laminated. No containers of sweetners on the table.

The wine list has to have many options that make me feel like I am trying something new for me. Sommelier that makes me comfortable to ask lots of questions (like Da Marco). Custom (not neon-colored) cocktails (like T'Afia). Good wine glasses. No glassware can ever be hot.

I love the food at Hugos and it is very different from a lot of places in Houston. Once they started having larger parties there, lots of kids, and now a buffet on Sundays, I don't consider it fine dining. I go there for the food, no longer the experience.

No tables full of loud consultants or business people in town who are drunk off Opus One or Jordan and being allowed to be disturbing because they are spending a lot of money (and I say this as a consultant who is guilty of this on numerous ocassions). (So not Cafe Annie, not Flemings or most chain high-end steak restaurants).

In the last 12 months I have felt like we are experiencing truly fine dining at Charivari, Da Marco, Chez Nous, Brenners, and Marks (although Marks sometimes gets away with it being loud and feeling like a machine if you are there at a prime time but the menu makes it all OK).

Excellent and (sometimes) expensive food that I crave and we go eat but I do not consider fine dining because of elements I wrote above: Pesce (too many expense account people being rude and wine list not as interesting as could be), Hugos, and Churrascos.

I lived in Dallas for a few years and felt like the fine dining was more flashy (crowd, hostesses, valet keeping Ferraris in front, etc). The finest dining I remember was Lola.

How's that for a ramble? (I am killing time before a meeting.....)

[joiei]

great responses. another question to add, are expensive chain steak houses fine dining. or are they just another steak house with well dressed waiters?

[Mnehrling]

I believe they can be 'fine' dining. I wouldn't say they are the top level.

One that comes to mind is Texas deBrazil steakhouse. Yes it is a chain, but (for Texas) what you get is so unique, and of such high quality that I would raise that to the level of some of the independent owned 'steakhouses'... Hell, I would almost consider their salad bar alone fine dining..

Now, if you are talking about Outback, Texas Roadhouse, or the ilk.. then hell no..

Edited June 30, 2005 by Mnehrling (log)

[SuperLuckyCat]

I would say that high end steak chains are usually not fine dining. That's a fine line, though, since they are expensive (therefore a little more exclusive), usually have excellent service (with career servers who bring pride to their job and seem to make a lot of money doing it), and don't last long if they don't have great food.

Usually they are loud and always predictable, but sometimes this is what you want. When my husband and I want steak, a guaranteed excellent martini, excellent wine list, and something with a lot of blue cheese, we'll go to one, but really the only one in Houston I have been to that I think is fine dining is Brenners and I have to ignore the location (highway hell) and the owner (Landrys). They have a very knowledgeable sommelier who has steered us to some unusual wines we have started pursuing elsewhere.

I have never been to Texas de Brasil. Doesn't it have a salad bar? Or am I thinking of Fogo de Chao? I think a salad bar, no matter how extravagant, eliminates the fine dining categorization.

The tastiest piece of beef I have had in Houston is a ribeye at Smith & Wollensky's but we haven't been back and I wouldn't consider it fine dining. It was so loud and such a scene and the salad I ordered was enough for 10 people and I was annoyed the server didn't warn me about that. Also, I think that if there is a large hoochie contingency at the bar, the fine dining category is forfeited. There goes Flemings!

Ooo, another thing, the routine at Mortons when they bring out the meat cuts and the poor half-dead lobster and the godzilla baked potato to use as visual tools.... is not fine dining.

I wish we could go on a field trip/focus group and you bring me into the steak restaurant, we check out the bar, the wine list and order a steak and say "fine dining, oui ou non?"

And just so you know, I am not some old geezer who gets upset about any noise, I just hate it when you can't have a normal conversation with your dining companion.

[Mnehrling]

I have never been to Texas de Brasil.  Doesn't it have a salad bar?  Or am I thinking of Fogo de Chao?  I think a salad bar, no matter how extravagant, eliminates the fine dining categorization.

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Normally I would completely agree, but the quality of food at their salad bar surpasses some of the best 'gourmet made to order' salads at the best places.

http://www.texasdebrazil.com/index2.php

Go to the menu link > Salad and sides..

[tetsujustin]

Well, having eaten in Chicago, SF, and NYC... it's hard to get what I perceive as "fine dining" here in Houston (haven't been much elsewhere in Texas for fine dining) but just a few things:

1. The menu must be coursed out. Multiple courses with changing of silverware, and plates in between. It must be timed. I can't count the times I've been to a high end steakhouse eating my salad when my steaks come out.

2. Service must be point on technically. Not overly friendly, I'd rather have a comfortable, very technically sound, and pleasant waiter than a bubbly person. Fine dining places just aren't the places I look for that. Decrumbing, intuitions on when a person needs something and the whole aspect of "exceeding expectations" come to mind.

3. The type of food. The menu. I've seen a place claim to be high end fine dining and have venison carpaccio on the appetizer side of the menu right next to buffalo wings. Then sushi and also pork schnitzel of all things on the entree side. It just didn't work for me. Even if the plating was pretty nice.

4. The atmosphere should make it not that you can't bring kids in, but you really wouldn't want to. Sophistication, maybe? I'm not sure how to describe it. Then again, I did see a 9 year old a Restaurant Daniel eating a piece of sauteed foie. So who knows.

I myself wouldn't consider steakhouses fine dining mostly because there isn't much passion about the food. Even if the service and food is wonderfully executed. You can have a grand ol time, but when it comes down to it for me, no matter how aged the ribeye is, no matter how delicious the potatoes au gratin is, and no matter how nice your hollandaise is on your steamed broccoli, it's just too simple. There's not much reflection of the chef in a steak dinner. The place just doesn't have the personality in it that I would consider fine dining.

But again, that's just me.

[bhoward]

Let's be very clear--a salad bar is not fine dining.

[joiei]

Let's be very clear--a salad bar is not fine dining.

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I agree, no matter how fresh everything is or how attractively it is displayed or how much your paying for the experience.

[bhoward]

To get back to the original post, are we perhaps confusing "fine" dining with "formal" dining? Justice Potter Stewart of the U.S. Supreme Court once, when deciding a pornography case, stated that he "knew it when he saw it." I think I know formal dining and I think I know fine dining. Sometimes a restaurant is both but sometimes not. I could probably take several paragraphs and explain what I mean but instead I will just give a few examples of what I mean, using restaurants in Dallas as examples.

French Room--Formal and fine dining, no doubt.

Aurora--Definitely fine dining but not quite so formal.

Lola--FINE dining (in my opinion the best in Dallas) but not formal really. Some patrons do wear ties but most do not. Still, the stemware is excellent and the service matches the quality of the food.

York St.--Fine dining but definitely not formal. Many wear shorts or other casual clothes and are not out of place. The food makes it fine dining, however.

Green Room--No one would use the word "formal" when discussing this place and some may argue that it is SO informal that it isn't fine dining. I would disagree but get the point; the noise, the art, the neighborhood are not what one thinks of when one thinks of "fine" dining. Still, given the wine list and the level of service (by no means on a par with the places mentioned above) and, mostly, the food, the place could definitely be called a place of "fine dining."

Some cities (Austin?) have great fine dining (Driskell, Vespaio, Jeffrey's) but no formal dining to my knowledge. Some neighborhoods (see, e.g., York St and Green Room) just do not seem fit for formal dining. I believe, however, that any place can spawn fine dining--Chez Panisse in Berkeley, Union Square Cafe in or near the Village in NYC, Blackbird and Avec in Chicago, etc.

Sometimes I like to wear black tie and go to a place like the French Room. Most of the time, however, I prefer a spot like Lola where I can wear a tux (and I have done so) and not feel out of place or wear jeans (I have done that, too) and feel just as welcome. The food and the wine and the service are what matters most to me and, I assume, to others who frequent this board.

Edited July 2, 2005 by bhoward (log)

[pterostyrax]

As far as I'm concerned, you have to eat at fine dining establishments in order to determine what fine dining is all about. To this end, go no further than La Reve in San Antonio. My wife and I have been on a fine dining exploration for the past 15 years of NYC, New Orleans, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, London, Paris, Singapore, Sydney, Tokyo, etc.

Nowhere have we experienced a better fine dining experience than at La Reve......by a wide margin.

[Deacon]

. . . Also, I think that if there is a large hoochie contingency at the bar, the fine dining category is forfeited.

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*thirty seconds of laughter*