High End in San Francisco

[Mnehrling]

Fifth Floor (Melissa Perello is getting raves at her new post here)

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Some people here told me not to hit the 5th because Melissa was new, but I was very pleased with what came out, literally zero complaints (and my wife will attest I am a major food snob)..

I was staying at the Palamor so I also had the opportunity to run in twice for their Port sampling and cheese platter near closing... all brilliant.. great service, and the friendliest staff I met in SF...

Edited June 24, 2005 by Mnehrling (log)

[fiftydollars]

...anything at Clementine (stellar French value btwn 2nd and 3rd)...

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I love Chapeau!

[robyn]

But La Folie is also excellent. Roland Passot is one of San Francisco's absolute best.

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No reason I can't do both La Folie and Michael Mina. Remember - I'll have both an anniversary *and* a birthday in San Francisco . And 3 other nights too . Also 4 lunches. I can't eat huge amounts of food - so I'll have to pace the eating. But there are few meals I like better than a plain grilled fish - or some nicely done shellfish - with a salad or some veggies. And meals like that are light. Any recommendations along those lines?

What kinds of local fish and shellfish do all of you recommend in San Francisco (I'm sure that since I live in Florida - they'll be totally different than our local favorites - also - I won't eat local oysters and the like these days due to pollution problems with local beds - is that a problem in your part of the world?). What kinds of seasonal produce should I be looking for in September? I suspect you have a traditional summer/early fall growing season - whereas in Florida our growing seasons are basically late fall/winter and spring (not much grows here in the summer - which is how we wound up with so many okra dishes ).

Note that we were very impressed by Aqua at the Bellagio. Not at all what we expected from a hotel restaurant - especially in Las Vegas (this was about the time when eating in Las Vegas was just starting to become a "big thing"). So you've pushed me into the "have to go to Michael Mina" camp again. Everyone should be so lucky to have the problem of deciding whether to dine at Michael Mina. Robyn

[robyn]

Ingrid - how are the neighborhoods you mentioned in terms of topography (big hills - little hills - flat?). My husband wears a clunky knee brace - and I don't want him to accuse me of trying to hasten the surgery he'll probably need one day. Note that one reason I'm asking this is that the tourist guide "Let's Go" has a very neat map of the topography of San Francisco. Unfortunately - it doesn't seem to be published annually (it mentions in the current edition that the Ferry Building will be reopened next year). So I couldn't see buying the book. Robyn

[Hest88]

Re: design stores. The area around William Stout Books is where all the design firms are. It's a pleasant area in which to stroll, with pleasant brick buildings. There's a number of antique stores, though I remember when I was last there they seemed more like Louis XIV sort of antiques. However, I'm not sure if I would say it's full of design stores. They really are all scattered around the shopping neighborhoods.

FWIW, I was actually pleasantly surprised by the food at Michael Mina. I wouldn't say it was incredible, but it was definitely solid. Plus, if you go looking to be charmed by the presentation as well I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[amytraverso]

Ingrid - how are the neighborhoods you mentioned in terms of topography (big hills - little hills - flat?).  My husband wears a clunky knee brace - and I don't want him to accuse me of trying to hasten the surgery he'll probably need one day.  Note that one reason I'm asking this is that the tourist guide "Let's Go" has a very neat map of the topography of San Francisco.  Unfortunately - it doesn't seem to be published annually (it mentions in the current edition that the Ferry Building will be reopened next year).  So I couldn't see buying the book.  Robyn

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Robyn-

There's a great biker's map of San Francisco that you can buy at most bookstores. It grades each street in the city by its incline: dark red is very steep, pink is hilly, white is flat. It's really handy, even for planning your walking route. If you'd like I could find out the actual name when I get home tonight...

Amy

[lizard]

Ingrid - how are the neighborhoods you mentioned in terms of topography (big hills - little hills - flat?).  My husband wears a clunky knee brace - and I don't want him to accuse me of trying to hasten the surgery he'll probably need one day.  Note that one reason I'm asking this is that the tourist guide "Let's Go" has a very neat map of the topography of San Francisco.  Unfortunately - it doesn't seem to be published annually (it mentions in the current edition that the Ferry Building will be reopened next year).  So I couldn't see buying the book.  Robyn

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A helpful note with regard to transit - take the F - Market streetcar to The Ferry building from the Union Square area (4th & Market) or beyond to Fisherman's Wharf. It's an enjoyable ride on the vintage streetcars, and it's only $1.25 per ride, with a 2-hour transfer window. You can also get weeklong passes for just $12.

Avoid BART & the underground MUNI trains if you can, as the stations have lots of stairs, and the escalator/elevator situation is always in flux. I have a bad knee and it always seems the BART/MUNI station escalators go in the exact OPPOSITE direction in which I need to go.

Basically, the entire area from Union Square South to South of market (SoMa), and East to the Ferry Building & the water is flat. If you try to go North from Union Square, take a cab or a cable car. Nob Hill is so steep, the sidewalks are terraced.

[MaxH]

SF high-end dining seems to be a popular question now (on numerous online fora).

Many people with depth of SF experience cite the Ritz-Carlton, Fleur de Lys, Masa's, sometimes Rubicon, and lately the reborn Campton Place. I've eaten at all of them at times in recent years, though not all lately. (Some people report good meals at Danko's restaurant in SF; some with considerable experience publicly or privately dismiss it as tourist trade; I have not tried it and likely won't.)

Regarding Fleur de Lys, Hubert Keller from Alsace, chef-owner (previously at Sutter 500, in the 1980s), is the Bay Area's original "Keller" (before Thomas) and has deep traditionalistic talent. Not too long ago we had one of those black-tie SF's-greatest-chef cook-off dinners at the Ritz-Carlton, for one of the US food societies; Keller was the popular favorite (though the award was given to the local chef at the Ritz-Carlton, as a customary courtesy).

Regarding Masa's, though the original chef Masa was a great loss when murdered in 1985, a series of creditable professionals followed him, and extraordinary wine directors; Alan Murray there, from Australia, whom I've seen pull some finesses of wine knowledge, recently passed the final Master Sommelier exam. One group of wine enthusiasts from the Bay Area met at Masa's yearly for an exuberant holiday dinner. (With Siegel's cooking; he's now at the Ritz.)

[ingridsf]

Ingrid - how are the neighborhoods you mentioned in terms of topography (big hills - little hills - flat?).  My husband wears a clunky knee brace - and I don't want him to accuse me of trying to hasten the surgery he'll probably need one day.  Note that one reason I'm asking this is that the tourist guide "Let's Go" has a very neat map of the topography of San Francisco.  Unfortunately - it doesn't seem to be published annually (it mentions in the current edition that the Ferry Building will be reopened next year).  So I couldn't see buying the book.  Robyn

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Well, well, what a coincidence. I wear orthotics and use a cane. I live on the west side of SF (where these neighborhoods are) precisely because they're comparatively flat.

About Chapeau -- it IS a lovely restaurant. The chef/owner used to cook at La Folie, I believe. He is so warm and friendly. My only faults w/ the restaurant are that it's very crowded and loud. I had trouble maneuvering and being heard. That's why I prefer Clementine.

[robyn]

SF high-end dining seems to be a popular question now (on numerous online fora)...

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Catching up on lots of messages. One last one before I hit the sack.

What about Quince? I know it doesn't have the reputation a lot of other places have - but it looks interesting.

Is the question I asked popular because a lot of people are being disappointed? If so - it wouldn't surprise me. Seems that it's happening in a lot of high-end restaurants in lots of cities. Let's face it - if people are more interested in taking pictures of food than eating it - why should chefs knock themselves out to make stuff taste really good? I think I am on the verge of becoming a foodie Luddite when it comes to restaurants. (Now that I reread this message - it seems like I've written pretty much the same thing before.) Robyn

[robyn]

Was doing some reading today - and perhaps one reason there's a lot of talk about high-end dining in San Francisco is that a lot of chefs seem to playing the restaurant equivalent of musical chairs. Seems there aren't many high-end restaurants where the chef who was there 2 years ago is the chef who's there today.

By the way Max - why would you not even try Gary Danko (a lot of people on food sites I've read all seem compelled to try it)? My impression is that perhaps it's ok - but there's nothing about it that spells "San Francisco" to me. Robyn

[robyn]

Re: design stores. The area around William Stout Books is where all the design firms are. It's a pleasant area in which to stroll, with pleasant brick buildings. There's a number of antique stores, though I remember when I was last there they seemed more like Louis XIV sort of antiques. However, I'm not sure if I would say it's full of design stores. They really are all scattered around the shopping neighborhoods.

FWIW, I was actually pleasantly surprised by the food at Michael Mina. I wouldn't say it was incredible, but it was definitely solid. Plus, if you go looking to be charmed by the presentation as well I don't think you'll be disappointed.

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Re a place like Michael Mina - I have to tell you that the more I read - the more confused I get. Because - quite frankly - I think there are a lot of people on food web sites who are trying to do things other than simply tell other people what they thought about the food in a particular place. Like scoring some kind of psychological points - particularly when they're discussing places that people who aren't exactly their friends have also discussed. I used to take what people write with a few grains of salt - but now I am thinking of throwing away the salt shaker .

If I had to guess - I suspect if we eat in Michael Mina - it will be like our dinner at Angela Hartnett at the Connaught in London. A beautiful space - with food that - while not world class - is - like you say - solid.

One question about Michael Mina. Our anniversary (our 34th) is 9/10 - a Saturday - a bad night to eat out (and we usually don't eat out - or make a big deal of eating out - on a Saturday). I would like to have a nice meal - but - what is equally important is having a good experience. Not one of these deals where we arrive for a 7:30 reservation - and are told to wait in a crowded noisy bar for an hour while the first seating clears out. For lack of a better phrase - a gracious evening. Do you think Michael Mina is a place where we can find that? Robyn

[melkor]

For your anniversary, hire a car service and have them drive you the hour and change each way to either the French Laundry or Manresa - honestly nothing in the city comes close. Michael Mina is far more trendy than it is delicious, and while you won't be shepherded off to a noisy bar you will likely end up sitting in a hotel lobby waiting for your table. Given the price tag of a high-end meal is going to run $400 to $1000+ for two and that it is a special occasion, the extra cost of car service will be well worth the improved experience you’ll find either in Yountville or Los Gatos.

[robyn]

For your anniversary, hire a car service and have them drive you the hour and change each way to either the French Laundry or Manresa - honestly nothing in the city comes close.  Michael Mina is far more trendy than it is delicious, and while you won't be shepherded off to a noisy bar you will likely end up sitting in a hotel lobby waiting for your table.  Given the price tag of a high-end meal is going to run $400 to $1000+ for two and that it is a special occasion, the extra cost of car service will be well worth the improved experience you’ll find either in Yountville or Los Gatos.

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How long a drive is it to French Laundry and Manresa? If any of you have any experiences with it - can a good hotel concierge be helpful with the reservations? I'm not sure we want to do this - but I'd like to get the relevant information - and decide what to do. Robyn

[ludja]

For your anniversary, hire a car service and have them drive you the hour and change each way to either the French Laundry or Manresa - honestly nothing in the city comes close.  Michael Mina is far more trendy than it is delicious, and while you won't be shepherded off to a noisy bar you will likely end up sitting in a hotel lobby waiting for your table.  Given the price tag of a high-end meal is going to run $400 to $1000+ for two and that it is a special occasion, the extra cost of car service will be well worth the improved experience you’ll find either in Yountville or Los Gatos.

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How long a drive is it to French Laundry and Manresa? If any of you have any experiences with it - can a good hotel concierge be helpful with the reservations? I'm not sure we want to do this - but I'd like to get the relevant information - and decide what to do. Robyn

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Both are ~ 45-60 min away from SF, depending on traffic.

[robyn]

For your anniversary, hire a car service and have them drive you the hour and change each way to either the French Laundry or Manresa - honestly nothing in the city comes close.  Michael Mina is far more trendy than it is delicious, and while you won't be shepherded off to a noisy bar you will likely end up sitting in a hotel lobby waiting for your table.  Given the price tag of a high-end meal is going to run $400 to $1000+ for two and that it is a special occasion, the extra cost of car service will be well worth the improved experience you’ll find either in Yountville or Los Gatos.

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How long a drive is it to French Laundry and Manresa? If any of you have any experiences with it - can a good hotel concierge be helpful with the reservations? I'm not sure we want to do this - but I'd like to get the relevant information - and decide what to do. Robyn

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Both are ~ 45-60 min away from SF, depending on traffic.

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I spoke with my husband at dinner (quick dinner - we're both exhausted from gardening) - and he said if we can't get 4 days of "good eats" in San Francisco - then the world as he knows it has disappeared. So we will just try to "muddle through" in San Francisco . From what I hear some of you saying - we may be happier with the smaller chef-in-the-kitchen places like La Folie - and the ethnic places (I can't emphasize enough that where we live - the Chinese food is - for the most part - inedible - and cuisines like Korean - Vietnamese - Mexican - etc. are non-existent).

FWIW - we ate at Per Se on our last trip to New York last year - and - although it was excellent - it wasn't our favorite NY restaurant on that trip.

BTW - does your price estimate at Michael Mina include liquor/wine at the high end? My husband doesn't drink at all - and I'm not much of a drinker. Robyn

[Rebel Rose]

Here is a link to the Michael Mina three course and tasting course menus, including price, with wine pairing prices.

As a forum host, I would like to remind everyone that this topic centers on high end dining in San Francisco. Once a question is posed, it becomes a culinary discussion open to all members, and it may be referred to by other members planning to travel and dine in California. Therefore, please stay on topic, everyone.

While a certain amount of peripheral conversation is welcome, our culinary threads should not be derailed into personal travel, distance, and driving arrangements. For this kind of information, please contact your hotel, call the restaurant, PM local members, or use your laptop or the hotel computers to look up driving distances.

The accessibility issue is interesting, particularly for a city as steep and hilly as San Francisco. Perhaps a new restaurant thread?

[melkor]

BTW - does your price estimate at Michael Mina include liquor/wine at the high end?  My husband doesn't drink at all - and I'm not much of a drinker.  Robyn

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With tax and a 20% tip, two tasting menus with no beverage will run you $311. My price estimates always include wine

[moosnsqrl]

I ate at Quince last Saturday, Aqua last Monday. I would recommend both without hesitation. If you want details, send me an email offline. While they change menus frequently, I could give you a pretty close approximation of what to expect.

[MaxH]

Incidentally the reason I was seeing a lot of queries about SF restaurants on far-flung online fora is I think just because people were traveling there.

... By the way Max - why would you not even try Gary Danko (a lot of people on food sites I've read all seem compelled to try it)?  My impression is that perhaps it's ok - but there's nothing about it that spells "San Francisco" to me.

I don't think he wants my business. At another restaurant where G. D. was involved, there was a debacle in the handling of an event, through a manager's behavior that most people would judge outrageous, I think. (Or anyway, obnoxious.) Judge, that is, based on evidence, which was sent to G. D. with a complaint. There was no response, hence my reasoned inference above. Also, the same person was, at one point, reported working at G. D.'s current restaurant. I haven't confirmed that, but I (and some others) will likely avoid doing future business with that specific employee even if we have to go out of our way to do so. (That is a non-Michelin sense of “mérite un détour.”)

[Jason Perlow]

For what its worth, I very much enjoyed my recent meal at Gary Danko, be it "San Francisco" food or not.

While I think that its typical of the type of cuisine that you might call "CIA food" I thought it was very well executed and the service at the restaurant was excellent.

I also liked Cortez restaurant ( http://www.cortezrestaurant.com/ ) a lot in The Adagio hotel. Very innovative, small-plates concept with eclectic flavors. Lots of nice cocktails too with a very relaxed vibe for a high-end place, and great for dining alone.

[robyn]

I ate at Quince last Saturday, Aqua last Monday.  I would recommend both without hesitation.  If you want details, send me an email offline.  While they change menus frequently, I could give you a pretty close approximation of what to expect.

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I assume you were on a trip (or have a birthday/anniversary back to back ). Which did you prefer? Or are they simply so different that comparing them head to head doesn't make sense? Robyn

[robyn]

For what its worth, I very much enjoyed my recent meal at Gary Danko, be it "San Francisco" food or not.

While I think that its typical of the type of cuisine that you might call "CIA food" I thought it was very well executed and the service at the restaurant was excellent.

I also liked Cortez restaurant ( http://www.cortezrestaurant.com/ ) a lot in The Adagio hotel. Very innovative, small-plates concept with eclectic flavors. Lots of nice cocktails too with a very relaxed vibe for a high-end place, and great for dining alone.

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I'm not sure what "CIA food" is - because a CIA grad just opened a new restaurant here in Jacksonville Beach (Eleven South). It's good for Jacksonville Beach - but I'm sure it bears scant resemblance to Gary Danko .

What dishes did you like best? Which were clunkers (if any)?

Same question with respect to your meal at Cortez. Robyn

[BigboyDan]

"CIA food"

Infecting all parts of the country.

[Jason Perlow]

"CIA food"

Infecting all parts of the country.

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I like this sort of modern American, pan-everything food though. I mean, if every major town in the US gets a CIA graduate opening a restaurant, at least you can say there will be one really consistently good restaurant in every major town in the US. CIA "cuisine" (if you want to call it that) at least has some pretty high standards.

It might not be the most exciting restaurant in any particular town, but if the grads are applying the skills they've learned you can at least expect a very good meal.