eG and Vancouver Restaurants

[Keith Talent]

[ Pluis everyone above keeps consistently saying "Vancouver is awesome, Vancouver is great, easily on par with any great food city." And I don't think that's fair.

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No it's not. Almost any city in Europe is better than Vancouver. New York and Las Vegas are better. Los Angeles is probably better. San Francisco is still better. Montreal is definately still better. But, really all the praise heaped on Vancouver is really just subtext for one thing; We're finally better than Toronto. And honestly, that all we as Vancouverites give a shit about. Once you recognize that all the hyperbole is really just an elaborate way for saying we're better than TO, it'll all make sense.

[dillybravo]

I agree Keith. It is very likely that Toronto sucks more. And costs more. So you can take some pride in that! It's better in the west!

The Montreal thing really gets my cheese. You can go eat something awesome in Montreal for $3.99. Or less! Here you're lucky to get day-old rice and some funky beef and brocolli.

[Andrew Morrison]

Hmm, our self-gratifying pats also have a lot to do with the speed of acceleration our food/wine scene has experienced over the last few years. In the short time I've lived in Vancouver, I've seen the pulse quicken significantly. We all have. That's what the excitement is all about. No comparisons to Toronto are necessary (though I agree that it was only a matter of time before we surpassed them). In the end it's about expectations, and you've set yours so incredibly high that you may be in danger of never getting them fulfillled. A hyper-critical bent will almost always defeat the purpose of dining out, and it's pretty wasteful when you drop $100 a head on an exercise in improbability.

It's plain you've had some phenomenal dining experiences, dillybravo, and you've made it clear that those reference points are seldom exceeded in Vancouver. But it's self-defeating to walk into a restaurant with the Ark of the Covenant in one pocket and the Holy Grail in the other and expect to be blown away. While it's difficult to surrender all past experiences when you critique a restaurant, if you can say that a "hole in the wall" can still get you excited about food and that $3.99 in Montreal can get you orgasmic, then you're not totally irredeemable. If I gave in to my critical urges all the time, I'd have to take my meals through a straw whille strapped down in a psych ward.

Edited June 13, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[butter]

I want remind everyone that this discussion is about whether or not Vancouver diners, and eGullet members in particular, are too lenient when reviewing restaurants in forum.

I want to remind everyone that some of us Vancouverites participating in this forum are not as well dined as Auberge de la Charme or Mugaritz (heck, as soon as I finish here I need to go look these places up to see where they are and why they are so great), not as articulate as Jaimie Maw, nor as witty as Keith Talent, and that is why I (we) can not describe some of our dining experiences other than saying "I didn't like it." If this means I am to be muzzled...well, its just not going to happen. Unfortunately, others on this forum don't have the same armour and choose not to post negatively because of the backlash that may come as a result. It's not that they are lenient necessarily, just more puppies, flowers, and softer armour.

Having a more sophisticated tongue is, of course, a kiss of death. Makes me want to stay in my small world of Vancouver restaurants so I can keep enjoying them.

Food criticism = personality, no?

[dillybravo]

OK, last time I swear... Then I'm going to try to leave you all alone again, for a while at least, since I'm such a forum hog and all.

editor@waiterblog I hear you. And I agree. But I still think that the marketing, the hype, the websites, the food media, the tourism publications, all pimp it like it's going out of style. They make it sound like it's the best. They themselves talk about the euro-trained chef, the incredible wine list, blah blah. And everyone charges like that's the truth.

I enjoy my food plenty fine. I keep my expectations in check, I don't think it's fair to suggest I've set them too high, although I have probably made the impression quite fine on my own. I've been a little over-blown above but I don't feel like the critiques being lodged have actually understood and considered what I've said. Read it all again if you care to. This isn't about expectations; it's about value and facade and being at least a little critical and not just accepting it because it's good enough. For $300 you should be blown away, period. You should never have a downright bad dish. There are plenty of places here where you can go waste $300 on a meal that's not even worth $60. I think I do a pretty good job of adjusting for context, and things still aren't right. Yeah it's not fair to compare as I did, I'm sorry. But I'm not the one charging the same price and tooting the same horns. This is my point: expectations and all considered, it's just not as good. You're saying that yourself; but you think it's OK for some reason. Plus many others are content to insist that it is, and slag anyone who disagrees. Well, this is my last (and first) stand. I think it's bullshit.

And Auberge de la Charme I think is a perfect comparison for West. Same price points, not too well known, young chefs on the way up. And honestly West comes close sometimes. But Auberge is better. And cheaper. It's also in Burgundy though, so...maybe that explains something.

The right thing to do would be to admit the bad and the good, and to charge what you're worth instead of the most possible. And to allow people to critique and encourage it instead of insisting everything is a-ok-awesome. Maybe it's just the city and the cost of living in general, but I am mystified as to why a great chicken sandwich at Coco Rico in Mtl is $2.00 or something, and here I can get a cold, greasy, poorly sauced and surly-served beef brisket at Memphis Blues for $8.99 or 10.99 or 12.99 or whatever it is. And on and on and on and on at all levels.

butter...you're a saint. And I don't think it makes a whit of differnce how well dined you are. You deserve to know that you can get better than you've been getting, and that you're paying much more for it than you should be. You deserve to know that if you save your pennies and stay away from Bin 942 and maybe don't go to Lumiere this year and instead fly off to Montreal you can go to the same kind of places and spend 1/2 or 2/3, and you will have an awesome time and be totally amazed like you wouldn't believe. But instead many people are suggesting no critique and lowered expectations. You should be pissed off.

Edited June 13, 2005 by dillybravo (log)

[Brenda]

dillybravo

It's called discussion. That means some of us here will disagree with you occasionally. It doesn't mean that people don't understand your posts or are trying to shut you down.

And as I said before, I think it's healthy to read all these viewpoints. Readers can go and taste for themselves and see if they agree or disagree.

I think there are quite a few educated palates on this board: that's what I like about it. But I also appreciate EVERYONE'S viewpoints.

[dillybravo]

Totally. I'm all for it. But some of the remarks seem to suggest that people didn't actually read or understand what I wrote, that's all. Arguing to the side so to speak. Address me head on, rebut, confront, that's all I ask. Don't argue with me about something I didn't say.

I too apprecate all the viewpoints and feedback, as I think I am pretty effusive in demonstrating? I've said I agree with almost eveything everyone's said! What's the prob? Sorry I offended you, I didn't mean to give the impression you got at all.

Now I'm going to turn off the computer since I just...can't...help myself.

Edit: Also not saying people are trying to shut me down, or talking about this thread on that count. Look at the churros thread again, partic. Sam and Daddy-A. That's what I mean. Or read the responses to Foodie Girl. Daddy, Jamie. Totally harshing on it. It happens all the time. Go through the threads here and read 'em. You can slag on me all you want, I can take it. That's all I meant.

Edited June 13, 2005 by dillybravo (log)

[butter]

[seanw]

Brenda,

I have to confess that i do not appreciate everyone's opinion! I appreciate that everyone has the right to their own opinion.

The general drift has been that too many people seem to believe all the hype about Vancouver, the dissenting voices(who are not just whiners) would like to see/aid changes that would improve their food experiences in the city & are just venting(with perhaps a more worldly viewpoint...the irony should not be lost that Vancouver's world class status has generally been questioned by people from other places or who have travelled, who may/may not know what the fuck they are talking about).I wish people could understand that what is being promoted here is improvement(with critique being an essential component)......I for one am not satisfied with what is available.....I want more. This society is full of excesses so why not demand more when more could be done!

I find the subjective taste opinion interesting, it seems some people believe that this negates in depth coverage of dining- cus everybody has different tastes. Is this the same logic that applies to restaurant reviews in this city??? Of course taste can vary but surely their are 'truths'.....When i consider a meal, i want the elemental components to assert their value & meaning, separately & combined, depth of flavour is also paramount(consider how long a flavour{aroma, texture, balanceetc.} remains on the palette) as it provides the proof of the skill/experience/passion of those that have contributed to the final product.

The logistical operation of bringing food to the plate is wholly underappreciated by many- How can i say that??Look at how much you have to pay. Really is the market price for Wild Salmon respective of the effort & resources available??? Look at how much wine is charged for,& paid for, in restaurants- checks & balances but who really benefits?? I would like throw in a polemic on social justice here- but i know it is all about one group doing better at the expense of another, i'm biased too so my opinion may only be respected by Brenda. Anyway i hope people can see that change is required, now i should go & deposit the check i received from former employer, after mediation at employment standards.....restaurant biz, you got love it!

[jamiemaw]

[ Pluis everyone above keeps consistently saying "Vancouver is awesome, Vancouver is great, easily on par with any great food city." And I don't think that's fair.

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No it's not. Almost any city in Europe is better than Vancouver. New York and Las Vegas are better. Los Angeles is probably better. San Francisco is still better. Montreal is definately still better. But, really all the praise heaped on Vancouver is really just subtext for one thing; We're finally better than Toronto. And honestly, that all we as Vancouverites give a shit about. Once you recognize that all the hyperbole is really just an elaborate way for saying we're better than TO, it'll all make sense.

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Although you're wrong (hard-won experience tells me that Vancouver is more interesting and less expensive to eat out in--and certainly more diverse--than many cities its size in Europe), it’s a zero sum game. Anybody reasonably intrepid (or with a decent concierge) can eat well in virtually any city in the world, yes, even Toronto. But I did take a perverse joy in what James Chatto of Toronto Life said when I asked him (for The Globe) about our differences: ‘“I’m not surprised at the vibrancy of the Vancouver restaurant scene,” he said, “There’s an eager, concentrated population and a thriving sense of civic pride that stops just short of the smugness of Montreal and the nail-biting angst of Toronto.”’

But back on topic: Is this forum too lenient? Certainly it occasionally wants for detail and specifics. Just like death and taxes, detail and specifics (as opposed to generalities, banalities, proselytizing, blather and pontificating) focus the mind and actually force their author to be accurate. The rest—i.e. the subjective bits (i.e. “I prefer my foir gras flash-seared with fruit compôte)—can then be fairly discussed. I thought Food-Girl's opinions and criticisms interesting and thoughtfully expressed. But even if I didn’t I’d certainly defend her right to state them.

Without those well-researched details, any review (here or elsewhere) lacks credibility, whether lenient or thrown down from the bully pulpit. They swiftly descend into the culinary equivalent of those painfully self-aware ‘reviews’ on Amazon.com or Travelocity: anonymous, quasi-experiential but with little authorial or analytic context. Instant armchair experts, after all, are a dime a dozen, which also explains the explosion of blogs, which are too.

But the central power of these forums is to gather and collate information. Where it goes off the rails its when there’s a swarming effect, either because we’re being too kind (benefit of the doubt) or because we begin to rant. Again, sound, dispassionate criticism lies in the details: full, plain and true disclosure speed and improve cogent discussion.

We use a very defined protocol when we review restaurants in print, and before writing a feature review, try to visit several times and at different times of the week. That develops a fully-dimensioned illustration instead of a snapshot, and it's done out of respect for the business at stake. You would likely think it unfair, I’m sure, to have somebody visit your own business for a couple of hours, chat up your assistant, go through your files and then write a very public review.

I will say something about cost inequities. Montreal is relatively less expensive because its real estate values (the highest fixed cost of running a restaurant) have lagged far behind many other cities. That’s passed onto the consumer. Conversely, London has become one of the most expensive a dining cities in the world due to its terrible transportation infrastructure, high pound syndrome and withering rents. A $300 disappointment here can translate can translate into much, much more in London. Or Las Vegas, for that matter.

I've had some disappointing meals at big name restaurants in France, England, the US and elsewhere. It happens. I suspect that if I returned though, my experience might even out. Except for that disaster at Spago . . .

Bringing these thoughts together, perhaps a good protocol for future threads would be to post:

• The dish

• The ingredients, sauce etc.

• The price

• The tastes and textures

• The effect/how you would compare it to comparable restaurants

• The service

• A few words about wine expertise, décor, crowd, ambiance etc.

• And then, finally, your opinion of how successful the restaurant was in achieving its mission, and satisfying both needs and expectations.

Edited June 14, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[seanw]

Could you explain to me what James Chatto was talking about when he mentions the vibrancy of Vancouver restaurants ,how often does he eat here? & does he know of place where i can get great veg. in Vancouver yet, i see Myers Farms is providing Capers with some stuff now & i know the Islands are great! The point being that their should not be this paucity of produce, which there must be as apparently we would be hooped in days if something bad should happen(Please No).I am visiting New York & Montreal, should be interesting i have my shopping list. Actually Jamie I would love to hear about the route du saveurs thing you did as a possible rec. I would swop many average restaurants for one great one!...actually more the merrier.

[jamiemaw]

Could you explain to me what James Chatto was talking about when he mentions the vibrancy of Vancouver restaurants ,how often does he eat here? & does he know of place where i can get great veg. in Vancouver yet, i see Myers Farms is providing Capers with some stuff now & i know the Islands are great! The point being that their should not be this paucity of produce, which there must be as apparently we would be hooped in days if something bad should happen(Please No).I am visiting New York & Montreal, should be interesting i have my shopping list. Actually Jamie I would love to hear about the route du saveurs thing you did as a possible rec. I would swop many average restaurants for one great one!...actually more the merrier.

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James Chatto's article on Vancouver dining will be published next month in Toronto Life.

Here's the Charlevoix portion of the R de S. Tourism Quebec should be able to furnish you with the Montreal/Eastern Townships/Laurentions portion. Well worthwhile.

I'm surprised that you have difficulty sourcing vegetables in Vancouver, although I doubt that asking a Torontonian for advice would serve you well.

Edited June 14, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[jcsaucey]

You know what, leave the detailed criteria to the professionals like Mr. Maw.The rest of us: Did you enjoy the meal? Did you feel good about shelling out hard earned cash at the end of the night? Did you have a nice time? Really after that it is just case studies in subjectivity which have absolutely no end.

[butter]

You know what, leave the detailed criteria to the  professionals like Mr. Maw.The rest of us: Did you enjoy the meal? Did you feel good about shelling out hard earned cash at the end of the night? Did you have a nice time? Really after that it is just case studies in subjectivity which have absolutely no end.

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I agree completely. Like I said before, I won't be muzzled for not having the ability to describe a dish like a food writing pro.

[jamiemaw]

I agree completely. Like I said before, I won't be muzzled for not having the ability to describe a dish like a food writing pro.

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No-one has suggested that anyone be muzzled. Quite the contrary, in fact. The simple protocol I mentioned upthread could allow for more objectively-based opinions to be shared. It might also disabuse us of those 'hanging in midair' declarations--the incomplete rants that fail to answer the what and why questions. Think of it as the mise en place of posting a restaurant experience.

Further, in your case, the additional benefit to us would be to hear from a professional chef whose expertise is both important and credible.

Jamie

[cubilularis]

It may be as simple as it is time for the industry to change. It is time that the industry deliveries a product and experience that cannot be delivered 'at home'. Vancouver has grown to the point that great food and decor should be the norm and mediocre is not tolerated.

Who drives this? eGullet? Consumer? ...or does the industry need to become more proactive and open to criticism?

I hope this (VANCOUVER!!! {Look to NY)) becomes less clique and more constructive. Time for all of us, me mostly, to use scientific fact in our posts. This could be a very powerful board and the acid test will be how the mainstream media perceives us all, as a group!

Cubie.

[seanw]

Thanks Jamie, as far as the veg. thing is concerned i believe it is an issue. An extended growing season would be appreciated is it not possible to grow more than toms & peppers in the hothouses!

[edm]

I'm surprised that you have difficulty sourcing vegetables in Vancouver, although I doubt that asking a Torontonian for advice would serve you well. 

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Jamie, sourcing quality vegetable locally is a major issue. Especially in the winter.

Unless, of course, Sysco, Allied, Koo & Co do it for you.

Farmers (organic famers, i'm talking about) in the lower mainland need more support and feedback from both professionals and the public. It is an ESSENTIAL step to help improve the overall quality of food in Vancouver. Generally speaking, few chefs here understand the importance of this issue. THERE IS NO GOOD FOOD WITHOUT GOOD PRODUCE. But i know you care, i saw you at Vista d'Oro last saturday...

I, for one, plan on solving this issue by having a farmer to work almost exclusively for me and to grow heirloom varities successfully.

But i'd also like to see the creation of an organization (a co-op?) that brings together farmers and chefs, with maybe a warehouse at the heart of it where interactions will be made easier & faster. The island seems more succesful at doing such a job.

[nwyles]

I'm surprised that you have difficulty sourcing vegetables in Vancouver, although I doubt that asking a Torontonian for advice would serve you well. 

←

Jamie, sourcing quality vegetable locally is a major issue. Especially in the winter.

Unless, of course, Sysco, Allied, Koo & Co do it for you.

Farmers (organic famers, i'm talking about) in the lower mainland need more support and feedback from both professionals and the public. It is an ESSENTIAL step to help improve the overall quality of food in Vancouver. Generally speaking, few chefs here understand the importance of this issue. THERE IS NO GOOD FOOD WITHOUT GOOD PRODUCE. But i know you care, i saw you at Vista d'Oro last saturday...

I, for one, plan on solving this issue by having a farmer to work almost exclusively for me and to grow heirloom varities successfully.

But i'd also like to see the creation of an organization (a co-op?) that brings together farmers and chefs, with maybe a warehouse at the heart of it where interactions will be made easier & faster. The island seems more succesful at doing such a job.

←

Eddy, you have hit the nail right on the head. It is not all that easy to get your hands on all of the good bit and pieces without a bit of legwork and / or driving around. Supply lines are inconsistant and sporadic at best. I am guilty of doing lots of vegetable purchasing from the larger suppliers for the ease and consistancy in delivery times and always having what I need. I admire your passion for this and hope your idea of an organization / centralized "warehouse" come to reality one day.

[Daddy-A]

Thanks Jamie, as far as the veg. thing is concerned i believe it is an issue. An extended growing season would be appreciated is it not possible to grow more than toms & peppers in the hothouses!

Jamie, sourcing quality vegetable locally is a major issue. Especially in the winter.

We're getting off-topic big time here folks. I know sustainability/seasonality is an important issue, but it's not pertinent to the topic at hand.

If you want to continue discussing the seasonal/sustainable issue, here are a couple threads in General Foods:

Seasonal & Sustainable

Seasonal Treats

Admittedly, these threads are more about home-cooks than the restaurant business ... which means there's an opportunity for you guys to start a new thread in General Foods! Yippee!

A.

[transfattyacid]

just to throw a wrench in the works again .

the opposite of this thread would be an interesting one .

Vancouver restaurants are we to soft on egullet ?

do you, or should you give any stock to an internet chatroom ?

as there is a balance between industry and non industry types on here what is the general consensus about the website ?

could it be said that the owners of restaurants that participate on egullet organise special dinners for all to attend, so they can get it over with. get the best table prepared , ply these geeks with fine food and wine throw them all in limos and off they go to the strip club after for hookers and blow ( or what ever the female equivalent is ). hope fully to never see these people again .

( a magnetic device by the door that could wipe out the memory of digital camera`s hmmmmm i wonder if thats legal ? )

should restaurants start banning those ( a`la sean heather ) for not agreeing with them online ?

the more this place gets over the top the less restaurants and owners will take you seriously .

any comments or am i just stirring it again ?

[nwyles]

ACID,

As always, an interesting view.

It certainly has been a fun ride for the last year or so. Egulleters have beat a path to my door and many others. I have a party of 25 people coming from New York later this month for hanger steak, every couple of days, strangers ask me "are you him ? " I just chuckle and say yes. I think they just want to know what the monkey in the cage looks like.

Are the restaurants too soft on the egulleters? Not really. I think that everybody has to take a deep breath and sit back and reflect on what exactly they are trying to do or say. We live in a very small town with an incredible amount of restaurants. I find that the Vancouver is both incredibly hard and soft on their restauranteurs. Look at the raging debate about Feenie. An excellent chef who quite often takes a beating. Or the Kolachy, a simple product that sometimes is touted as the "next coming".

The micro cruitiquing of the Heather : man, there is something that got a little crazy.

I imagine that this forum would be quite different is our city was a bit more spread out and not so accessable. We are ten minutes away from everything and that certainly has made quick meet and greets all the rage. It does not take too much effort to find a quick lunch mate. Most of us know who the others are and certainly know many of the Chefs in this town. With all of the TV shows, media agents and interviews that go on, I do not think that a person in this city does not know what Hawksworth, Feenie, Vij or Tojo look like. With everybody somewhat familiar with each other, it is hard to really get the knives out and lay into someone.

As for egulleters, they are great consumers who beat a path to the fav rave's door in flocks. As a man who is just trying to make a living, I do not see this as a bad thing. There is also an air of familiarity with most of them as they have a sense of who they are dealing / talking to.

I see the "reviews" here as long form comment cards. You can either agree or disagree, but at the end of the day, the doors will still open and everybody has to go back to work. What restauranteurs do with comment cards is up to them : they can react in a positive fashion and use the information to improve, or throw them in the garbage. It is somewhat similar here, just they tend to stay in your face a little longer.

It is so often a matter of taste but people treat them as absolutes. Too much salt, too little salt etc. I found this lacked flavour , I noticed the sublty that the chef was going for etc.

Take a big breath.

It is just dinner, Not the "Last Supper".

[Andrew Morrison]

Interesting point, TFA.

I'd argue that every one of the mid to big restaurants in Vancouver have someone on their staff who lurks these boards and every positive/negative comment about their restaurant makes it to the attention of the mmanager/owner lickety split. That's a good thing. An excellent thing.

As Neil points out, eG reviews are like comment cards, but with one major difference: they're not kept in a box at the front desk. They can be accessed by anyone, anywhere (as long as they're a bit geeky and have a computer) and are therefore taken more seriously. Also, consider who are on these boards and measure the weight of their opinions against the anonymous hit and run screeds that fill a comment box. If a restauranteur or chef pipes up or down about a restaurant, a restaurant practice, or anything regarding ethics, criticism, et cetera...what an invaluable place this is for those being criticized!

Some might scoff at eGullet, but I have a feeling that soon you'll see more lurkers outing themselves, and being a member will be something that (believe it or not) a busser drops in a job interview. Again, it ain't the Last Supper, as Neil notes, but it nonetheless carries some weight in my world.

In the end, anything that can spark improvement or awareness is a wonderful thing. The restaurant business in Vancouver needs to be pushed and be held accountable otherwise only those with the drive and inspiration already in place will advance.

Edited June 15, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[Daddy-A]

You may or may not realize this ... but the Vancouver/Western Canada forum has a very large percentage of participating members from the industry compared to the rest of the board. We're not just talking FOH & BOH, but owners, PR people, etc. etc. So it's not surprising that there would be a large response from that community in this forum. Hell, if there was a designers' version of eGullet, and people I had never met started putting down my work you can bet I'd have something to say about it!

Where am I going with this? Nowhere really, except to say I agree with Neil's comment ... this isn't The Last Supper. This is a web site, where we talk about food and eating. Is the Irish Heather still busy? Is Lumiere still R&C? Will the Pink Tea Triad still be able to get a table this Saturday? Yep.

And so it goes ...

A.

[Zucchini Mama]

TFA,

When you ask if you're being too soft on eGullet-I'm not sure what you mean.

Do you mean that you want the pros to be more critical of posts made by egulleters?

Do you think it's up to the pros to provide more of a critical context for posts? For some reason I can't quite wrap my head around what you're asking.

I like Neil's analogy of the comment cards, that's a good one.

I don't know, I like a mixed salad. I think posts by a variety of personalities with a variety of views makes for interesting reading. We all talk about the weather in spite of the fact we're not all meteorologists. I value everyone's contributions, and I'm just so fascinated by how passionate people are about things like dough fried in oil.

If we can tolerate one another's differences and accept where they're coming from, the forum will grow into a community that's effectively proactive about the quality of the food we eat here.

Peace, Love, and One World on this fabulous sunny day.

Zuke