the chicken liver question

[CHARCUTIER]

In or out?

I have a pot of ragu in the oven at the moment. I used chicken livers for the first time. It's been cooking for about 2 hours now, and I have just given it an initial taste. It tastes....livery!

A good thing? Frankly, I'm a little concerned...

[slkinsey]

Chicken livers aren't a traditional component of ragu Bolognese, and I wouldn't include them in a ragu Bolognese. That said, if you like chicken livers, chicken liver ragu can be delicious. I very much enjoy the Marchegiano dish vincigrassi, which is more or less a very rich lasagne al forno made with a chicken liver, chicken gizzard and mushroom ragu.

As for your observation that it tastes livery. . . dude, it's made with liver!

[markk]

Chicken livers are indeed a traditional ingredient in Bolognese ragu, and add an important dimension, although it would seem that you may have used too many.

I had a friend who had spent a lot of time in the region (as I have) and who used to ask me to make the sauce - but as he used to tell me, he hated chicken livers (livers of any kind) - so he'd ask me to leave them out. Then, he noticed that the sauce "wasn't quite the same" as he had it 'over there'. One day I made a batch, and included just a few chicken livers, without telling him, and when he tasted it he said "now that tastes like the real thing" and figured out that there was a little bit of liver in it. (He's also the person who used to make me leave the anchovies out of things, and then finally realized that things like liver and anchovies add essential "background notes" and that things you leave them out of don't taste as interesting.")

I learned how to make Bolognese sauce in Bologna - after hanging out for a few days at the hotel and restaurant Tre Vecchi in Bologna, the chef invited me downstairs to watch them make it, and I learned a lot of things I'd otherwise not have known.

Hope this helps.

[Avumede]

I learned how to make Bolognese sauce in Bologna - after hanging out for a few days at the hotel and restaurant Tre Vecchi in Bologna, the chef invited me downstairs to watch them make it, and I learned a lot of things I'd otherwise not have known.

Now you've piqued my curiousity. Care to share some of your discoveries?

[SuzySushi]

It tastes....livery!

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Depends on how many chicken livers you're using.

In making homemade pate de campagne a few weeks ago, I made the mistake of using all the chicken livers in the package, instead of just the 1/2 pound called for (I like chicken liver and chicken liver pate, so figured it wouldn't be a problem). The result, to me, tasted awful... the liver flavor completely overpowered the seasoned pork. But my husband liked it (go figure!).

[markk]

I learned how to make Bolognese sauce in Bologna - after hanging out for a few days at the hotel and restaurant Tre Vecchi in Bologna, the chef invited me downstairs to watch them make it, and I learned a lot of things I'd otherwise not have known.

Now you've piqued my curiousity. Care to share some of your discoveries?

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Well, just in the making of it, and the consistency. When it sits in the kitchens, it does 'separate', in that it's largely a soupy thing - they've got to take the ladle and stir it up a while to get it to the consistency you think of as Bolognese sauce. I've learned to concentrate on the stock, and the stewing, or fricasseing of the chicken parts - lots of necks, giblets, some liver, and the other meats, and then simmering those in the stock and eventually working my way towards adding the cream. There's some soupy stuff that floats around, and some butter or oil that floats around, and actually, this is exactly what it does in the vats of it that they make. I used to think that this is wrong, and that I had to work towards a homogenized sauce, which is clearly not the case. I also think that I'm not explaining it right and can't - it's something I can make lots better than I can explain.

[slkinsey]

markk, I have to say. . . what you're talking about sounds delicious, but doesn't sound like the classic ragu Bolognese, which is traditionally made with beef and pork (and no chicken of which I am aware). I've spend time in Bologna with friends a number of times, and have never heard of this as a common accepted practice. I'm also not aware that adding stock to the sauce is traditional. I'm not saying that people aren't doing it -- because your experience is that they are. It's just interestingly radically different from my own experience.

[markk]

markk, I have to say. . . what you're talking about sounds delicious, but doesn't sound like the classic ragu Bolognese, which is traditionally made with beef and pork (and no chicken of which I am aware).  I've spend time in Bologna with friends a number of times, and have never heard of this as a common accepted practice.  I'm also not aware that adding stock to the sauce is traditional.  I'm not saying that people aren't doing it -- because your experience is that they are.  It's just interestingly radically different from my own experience.

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How are YOU making/envisioning/thinking of Bolognese sauce? Are you not browning meats, with carrots and celery and bay leaves, evaporating wine over them, adding stock (or broth, I may be using the wrong word), and some tomato, simmering, and adding cream? Incidentally, I just looked in a few cookbooks, including the Ada Boni, and they do indeed call for all these things.

The thing I took away from the region (that wasn't the only kitchen I was in) was that it was the stock thickened with the cream that was the sauce, with the meat pieces sort of floating around in that. If you're not using stock, what is making up the volume of your sauce (may I ask)?

Edited May 19, 2005 by markk (log)

[chefzadi]

The Bolognese I know of does contain liver. But then again I'm a French chef not an Italian one.

I prefer it this way.

[albiston]

I agree with Sam. No chicken or chicken liver in classical ragu Bolognese.

Although I have lived most of my adult life in Naples, coming from a family which is 3/4 from Emilia Romagna, I've had more than a share of ragu recipes and I must admit I've never heard anyone mention liver for the classic sauce. We've argued on practically every other ingredient in the recipe and their doses though, so maybe I should introduce liver as a topic of conversation for our next family meeting. That should be fun .

There actually is a coded Bolognese ragu recipe from the Italian Culinary Accademy, which calls only for beef and pancetta as meats, something which sounds quite wrong to most of the people I know in Bologna. As it is, they use two or three kinds of meats (pork, beef and even veal), apart pancetta, to make their ragu. Clearly the mere concept of coding a sauce like Bolognese is risky since such a dish is family cooking: every home in Bologna probably has a different recipe which could be called "the right one". So I'd say that Bolognese with liver is not the way most people would go but I wouldn't be surprised to find some people doing so.

Using stock sounds a bit unusual to me too, but I know it is not uncommon. I've personaly learned to cook bolognese using mainly milk instead of stock, so maybe Sam is referring to this.

[chefzadi]

I figured you'd show up here Alberto.

Bolognese with liver is what is taught in some French professional culinary schools. Of course when it comes to authentic I'm totally out of my element here.

[slkinsey]

Using stock sounds a bit unusual to me too, but I know it is not uncommon. I've personaly learned to cook bolognese using mainly milk instead of stock, so maybe Sam is referring to this.

Yes, exactly.

The method and recipe that always struck me as "classic" is: sweat medium-fine dice of onion, carrot and celery in butter/evoo; add double-ground beef, pork, pancetta and maybe veal; cook until meats lose raw color; add white wine and cook to evaporate; add milk; cook on low several hours; mount with butter just prior to service.

In terms of the standard variations of the "classic" I recall: Tomato goes in there at some point (but not always) -- sometimes in the form of paste, sometimes whole or chopped with or without liqid (canned, not fresh). Some people reverse the order of milk and wine, and do the milk first. Some people may use red wine. Some people cook Parmigiano-Reggiano rinds in the sauce. Some people may leave out the pork, pancetta and/or veal. Some people mayuse stock, but I've always been told that this is not traditional and have been encouraged to use milk (in fact, I think Marcella Hazan specifically says one shouldn't use stock). Maybe using stock is a restaurant thing? If any liquid is required to thin the sauce as it simmers, it is usually water -- sometimes milk. No chicken of any kind. No liver.

[markk]

Thanks. I guess I do the same thing, but use a rich stock instead of the milk, and then thicken it with heavy cream. And I throw a few livers and giblets in with the browning meats.

Does anybody remember DDL Foodshow in New York? (Maybe I should start a thread with this question.) They had Lasagne al Bolognese that was out of this world - and tasted just like being in Bologna. I asked the chef one day where he was from, and he said, "Bologna", and that explained it !!

I never asked for their recipe or how they made it - I just remember that everything they had was fantastic, and I miss them !!!!!

[touaregsand]

It makes sense that a chef in Bologna would do things a bit differently from a homecook.

Isn't that what chefs do?

[slkinsey]

markk, if you like chicken livers in a ragu bolognese, you should really try the Marchegiano ragu for vincigrassi. Fundamentally it's got the regular ragu bolognese ingredients and technique, only the meats are chicken livers, chicken gizzards, chicken hearts (etc.), sometimes with other meats (I like pancetta) and wild mushrooms. Very rich, and very tasty.

[albiston]

Stimulated by this discussion I leafed through an Italian cookbook on Emilia Romagna's cuisine I had bought a few months ago but did not have a chance to read yet, "La Cucina dell'Emilia Romagna" from Alessandro Molinari Pradelli edited by Newton Compton. (Newton Compton's Regional Cuisine editions are some of the best Italian sources when it comes to traditional recipes IMO.) Reading the recipe for ragu I stumbled upon this closing line:

Alcune massaie, sopratutto in campagna, lavorando di fantasia (o di necessità virtù) preparano il ragu con prosciutto, o salsiccia, o fegatini di pollo, o pezzetti di lonza; non siamo d'accordo.

Some house cooks, especially in the countryside, prepare their ragu, out of fantsy (or need) with prosciutto, or sausage, or chicken livers, or pieces of cured pork loin; I don't agree.

It should make everyone happy, I guess .

Edited May 20, 2005 by albiston (log)

[albiston]

It makes sense that a chef in Bologna would do things a bit differently from a homecook.

Isn't that what chefs do? 

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It depends on what kind of chefs they are and where they work .

BTW, if you want to read a modernized recipe for ragu Bolognese take a look at this description from chef Igles Corelli's chat in the Italy forum a while back.

[BarbaraY]

I found only two of my books that use chicken livers. I never do because I don't care for the liverish flavor that it gives the sauce.

What I find surprising is the variation in the amount of tomato that is used.

[touaregsand]

I think the idea is to add just a bit, not enough to actually be able to taste the liver. Just a touch to add another dimension to the flavor profile.

[Really Nice!]

In or out?

I have a pot of ragu in the oven at the moment. I used chicken livers for the first time. It's been cooking for about 2 hours now, and I have just given it an initial taste. It tastes....livery!

A good thing? Frankly, I'm a little concerned...

←

Here's a recipe I got from an Italian cookbook when I was in Italy (1997) that includes chicken livers. The book was written in Italian so I had to buy some translation software to translate it, which was an adventure all by itself as you will see. Here's the original recipe.

Spaghetti con ragù alla bolognese

400 gm di spaghetti

sale

1 piccola cipolla

1 pezzo di carota

1 pezzo di gambo di sedano

100 gm di carne di manzo

100 gm di pancetta

2 fegatini di pollo

2 pomodori maturi

50 gm di burro

1/2 tazza di vino bianco

pepe

noce moscata

1 tazza di brodo di carne

Il ragù alla bolognese vanta una fama e una diffusione internazionali e non ha certo bisogno di grandi presentazioni: è sicuramente uno dei classici condimenti per la pasta in genere e per gli spaghetti in particolare. Per essere all'altezza della sua fama richiede un certo impegno, ma non occorre comunque essere maestri di cucina per ottenere un soddisfacente risultato.

Pulite la cipolla e tritatela; fate lo stesso con la carota lavata e asciugata e con il pezzo di gambo di sedano. Poi tagliate la pancetta in fetine sottili, lavate e tritate i fegatini, tritate anche la carne di manzo. Sbollentate i pomodori per qualche istante in modo da poter facilmente pelarli, privateli dei semi e passateli al setaccio. Mettete il burro in una casseruola, rosolatevi lentamente gli ortaggi tritati, la pancetta, i fegatini e la carne di manzo, rimestate bene e spruzzate con il vino bianco. Aggiungete quindi il pomodoro passato al setaccio, condite con sale, pepe e noce moscata, unite anche il brodo di carne e lasciate cuocere a fuoco moderato per circa 1 ora, rimestando di tanto in tanto. La cottura della pasta sarà la solita: mettete sul fuoco una pentola con abbondante acqua, portatela bollore, salatela e versatevi in una zuppiera e conditeli con il ragù. Se vi sembra il caso, prima di portare in tavola aggiungete una spolverata finale di parmigiano grattugiato. Tenete conto che una versione semplificata della ricetta non prevede l'utilizzo dei fegatini di pollo e, se vi sembra il caso, orientatevi di conseguenza.

Here's the translated recipe:

SPAGHETTI WITH RAGÙ BOLOGNESE

400 gm (1 lb) spaghetti

salt

1 small onion

1 carrot

1 celery rib

100 gm (1/4 lb) meat

100 gm (1/4 lb) bacon

2 chicken livers

2 ripe tomatoes

50 gm (3 tbsp) butter

1/2 cup white wine

pepper

nutmeg

1 cup beef broth

The ragù to the Bolognese boasts of a fame and an international diffusion and it doesn't need a big presentation: it is surely one of the classical seasonings for pasta and for spaghetti particularly. Clean the onion and mince; do the same with carrot and celery. Cut the bacon in thin pieces, wash and mince the liver; mince the meat. Boil the tomatoes for a moment so you can skin them easily, remove the seeds and pass through a sieve.

Butter a casserole dish, slowly brown the minced vegetables, bacon, liver and meat. Stir well and sprinkle with white wine. Add the tomato, season with salt, pepper, nutmeg, and beef broth. Cook under a moderate fire for around 1 minute, stirring every now and again.

The cooking of pasta will be the usual one: put a pot with abundant water on the fire, bring to a boil, add salt and boil pasta til al dente. Before bringing it to the table add a final dusting of grated parmigiano.

** Of course, translation software doesn't always translate well. Here are some phrases I needed to reword from the translation above.

Preparing the onion, carrot and celery:

You clean the onion and you mince her; fairies the same with the washed carrot and dried and with the piece of stem of celery.

Boiling and straining the tomatoes:

Boil the tomatoes for some instant in a way to be able to shave them easily, deprive you them of the seeds and pass them to you to the sieve.

Cooking the pasta:

The cooking of pasta will be the usual one: you put on the fire a pot with abundant water, bring her to excitement, salt her and pour in a tureen and season them with the ragù.

If this is the usual way to cook pasta in Italy I know where I want to live!

[SuzySushi]

** Of course, translation software doesn't always translate well. Here are some phrases I needed to reword from the translation above.

Cooking the pasta:

The cooking of pasta will be the usual one: you put on the fire a pot with abundant water, bring her to excitement, salt her and pour in a tureen and season them with the ragù.

If this is the usual way to cook pasta in Italy I know where I want to live!

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I like the original Italian wording better than the "proper" English translation!