Chicken Shish Kabob or Shishlik

[Pam R]

I know that there is a thread that discusses chunks of chicken on skewers, known to me in North America as a Shish Kabob. If my memory is correct (and it may not be) in Israel that's shishlik - and shish kabobs are made from ground meat.

Whether I'm correct or not, I'm testing recipes today and want to try for a minced meat on a skewer recipe, similar to those that I enjoyed in Jerusalem about 15 years ago (I believe it was called 'Off the Square').

Anybody making these? Is there a way to get the ground chicken (thighs) to stay together and not crumble? I want to grill (bbq) them, so they need to hold together.

I'm thinking of seasoning with Paprika, lemon, cumin, s&p and garlic.

any thoughts?

[gus_tatory]

I'm testing recipes today and want to try for a minced meat on a skewer recipe...

any thoughts?

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hi Pam R--

in Persian cuisine, these are called kubideh, and it is almost certainly the same thing. savoury spiced ground meat and grated onion on skewers. a tiny bit of baking powder (!) helps for lightness.

here are google links to recipes: click here... good luck!!!

[Pam R]

Thanks so much - I've looked at a couple and will look through more. I also found a link to an Israeli website that says calls these 'little hamburgers'.

So far (in the last 10 minutes) I've decided to add some finely diced onion. Part of the problem is that I've only found recipes for lamb or beef - and I just think the texture of the chicken may cause problems. Do I add bread crumbs and egg or just do the meat with seasonings?

I'm off to the grocery store in a few minutes and will be trying some of these later today (as well as some homemade pita). Can't wait!

Thanks again.

[gus_tatory]

the only time i've ever seen someone make these, they are shaped tightly to the skewers (squeezed) and then refrigerated on saran wrap to get them really firm before grilling. my main concern would be crumbling on the grill.

the chicken is certainly less fatty than beef or lamb. i don't see how an egg white and a few tsp of breadcrumbs could hurt...

and ooh, ooh! can you post your ingredients/method for home made pita? pleeease?

:-)

[Pam R]

and ooh, ooh! can you post your ingredients/method for home made pita? pleeease?

:-)

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I'll be happy to - as soon as I figure them out

I may even add some pics

[Grub]

Sish Kebab is of marinated chunks of lamb grilled on a round skewer, whereas Seekh Kebab is ground lamb, and generally much spicier than Sish -- and grilled on a wide, flat skewer. Marinated chicken chunks are grilled on the same skewers as Sish Kebab, but are known as Chicken Tikka Kebab.

As far as keeping the minced meat on the skewer -- it's pretty tricky... But if you get some wide skewer, pack the meat on very hard, avoid too much liquid in the mixture -- and chill the kebabs before grilling them, it'll help. Also, make sure to let the grill heat up properly, AND to oil it, before putting the kebabs down.

[FoodMan]

Let's not get caught up with semantics. As it has been demonstarted numerous times, the same dish could be called different things in different countries or even regions.

The ground chicken skewers are pretty common in persian restaurants but I am not sure how they get them to not fall apart. My suggestion would be to add a minimal amount of bread crumbs. I do that when I make my chicken burgers, maybe a couple of Tbsps. per pound, and you can hardly know they are there. I tried making it without the bread crumbs once and it was one big mess.

Elie

[Almass]

Sish Kebab is of marinated chunks of lamb grilled on a round skewer, whereas Seekh Kebab is ground lamb, and generally much spicier than Sish -- and grilled on a wide, flat skewer. Marinated chicken chunks are grilled on the same skewers as Sish Kebab, but are known as Chicken Tikka Kebab.

As far as keeping the minced meat on the skewer -- it's pretty tricky... But if you get some wide skewer, pack the meat on very hard, avoid too much liquid in the mixture -- and chill the kebabs before grilling them, it'll help. Also, make sure to let the grill heat up properly, AND to oil it, before putting the kebabs down.

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Now where in the name of the Big Kebab and how did you come up with such explanation???

Shish or Sheesh or Sish mean skewer in Turkish.

Seekh or Sikh mean skewer in Arabic.

Kebab is grilled meat in Turkish originally and now Arabic.

There is no such thing as Sheesh Kebab or Sikh Kebab different from each other.

Sheesh Kebabk or Kebak al Sikh or Sikh Kebab is one and the same and means meat on a skewer. It can be chunks of meat or pounded/minced meat. And Sheesh Taouk is chicken chunks on a skewer.

I repeat Sheesh or Sikh means skewer and the skewers can be flat or rounded or square. Originally all Kebab was on rounded skewers which did not represent any problem for chunks of meat. The Kefta to be able to stick on a round skewer had to fulfill two rules:

- To balance correctly the meat v meat fat proportion in the mix and to reduce the meat fat if parsley-mint-onions...etc is added to the mix.

- To pound the meat in a meat mortar.

Nowadays, the meat is minced in a food processor and people at large use lean lamb cuts which does not adhere properly on a thin round skewer and the flat skewers were born.

It goes without saying that here is a world of difference between Kofta made with lean meat and Kofta made with a mix of meat white fat as the flavor is heavenly. In certain parts of Lebanon and Syria, they would grill slivers of fat (Lyeh) and eat it directly from the grill. Very nice but you need to check with your health insurance before hand.

If you ask for Sheesh Kebab (in whatever spelling), depending on the country and the restaurant you are in, you will get whatever the restaurant understanding of Sheesh Kebab is. It can be lamb chunks or pounded/minced meat.

However if you ask for Kebak Shekaf or Kebab Mashoui then you are sure to get meat Chunks. If you ask for Kebab Orfali or Kebab KhashKhash...etc then you will get a particular pounded/mince meat recipe cooked on a skewer/grill.

If you ask for Mashaoui or Tashkilet Mashaoui, you will get a mix grill. (unless you are in the Maghreb as a Mashoui is Roasted Lamb) (Mashoui is a cooking process of roasting on open fire/grill).

Finally, if you want to make sure to get lamb chunks on a skewer grilled on a bed of charcoal grill, then you ask for:

Kabab Shekaf al Sikh al Fahhm.

or

Sheesh Kebab Shekaf al Fahm.

[Pam R]

Hmmmm... as I said in the original post, it doesn't really matter what they call them where. I just have this memory of them from a lovely little restuarant off a square in Jerusalem and wanted to try making them.... and they are ready to go on the grill so we'll see what I end up with.

Thanks for all of the info tho - next time I get to a middle-eastern restaurant I'll be prepared

The ground chicken skewers are pretty common in persian restaurants but I am not sure how they get them to not fall apart. My suggestion would be to add a minimal amount of bread crumbs. I do that when I make my chicken burgers, maybe a couple of Tbsps. per pound, and you can hardly know they are there. I tried making it without the bread crumbs once and it was one big mess.

Elie

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Ruh Roh. Well, they are mixed I didn't add any bread crumbs. They are also formed and skewered and ready for the grill which I'm about to go preheat. we make a lot of chicken burgers that are just ground dark meat - no additives and they hold together, so that's what I was going for. I'll let you know if they're a big mess - and if they are I'll try it again your way

[Grub]

Oh dear. Well I'll that as good advice and avoid the semantics of it... (Maybe I missed something in the posting guidelines -- no religion, no politics, and no absolutely kebab terminology!~ Hehehe.)

Let us know how it turned on -- and what kind of skewers you're using -- flat or round ones. Would very much like to know what recipe you're using.

[chefzadi]

I like the different names of dishes in Africa and the Middle East it helps to understand regional differences. As long as we don't argue about how a dish should be correctly named or how it should be transliterated according to standard Arabic, which I never have. Imposing standard Arabic to the Magrheb is a hot issue, I suggest it be avoided here.

Language sometimes helps us trace the history of dishes so if we can't talk about it at all we lose alot of valuable information.

Back on topic

I would use the flat skewers for this and not skimp on the chicken fat.

[Pam R]

I know the topic is chicken shishkawhatever, but I'm starting with pita pics anyway.

(Dough, water, yeast, sugar, olive oil, salt, flour - mixed, kneaded, rest for 2 hours, form into circle and roll then oven bake or stovetop cooking)

Dough before rising and dough after 2 hours:

Finished product. Some I baked in a 500 oven, the rest on the stove in a pan - I prefered the pan, it made a softer pita. Anybody know how to achieve a pocket in the center?

Then to the main event, the chicken:

Ground chicken (all dark meat), red onion, lemon zest, cumin, paprika, garlic, salt, pepper.

Then onto the skewers - I used what I had, which are the bamboo thin ones - I have some flat, wide metal ones somewere but I can't find them.

Then they were chilled and onto the grill for about 10 minutes:

And dinner (the sauce was a cucumber/garlic/soy sour cream thing - of course a yogurt sauce would work, but not in a kosher kitchen!):

I think there was a little too much cumin and next time, I'll try gus_tatory's suggestion and try some baking powder. They were a little dense. But I was amazed that they didn't fall apart! Rave reviews were offered from a group that doesn't rave if they don't like, so I'm off to a good start.

[gus_tatory]

hey Pam R--

what a lovely-looking early summer dinner! thanks for sharing your pita pics as well.

and i am impressed that you achieved no stick-to-the-grill-age! your lucky guests...

[Smithy]

Finished product.  Some I baked in a 500 oven, the rest on the stove in a pan - I prefered the pan, it made a softer pita.  Anybody know how to achieve a pocket in the center?

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All the food looks wonderful!

There's a section in FoodMan's Introduction to Lebanese Cuisine about making pita, and there's been further discussion about it elsewhere on this forum. As I understand it, you need to slap that dough onto a very hot surface with a high heat capacity - like a baking stone in a hot oven - to get the pocket. What happens is the dough starts to steam from the inside, and it puffs up. So far, the baking stone is the only way I've managed to get the pocket.

[Pam R]

Thanks folks - I'll check out Foodman's class - a couple of mine started to form pockets - while I wouldn't mind making them with the pocket, I liked what I ended up with tonight - I just folded it all up and enjoyed!

[Grub]

That looks excellent! I've made similar things, but never considered making my own bread though -- very cool.

[Almass]

Good stuff and your off to a good start.

Two considerations:

1- In case you do not have the proper oven/stone oven..etc where the oven surface is hot enough to achieve bread pockets. Try this:

a- Heat you baking sheet to max then place prompltly the dough on the baking sheet and replace in the oven.

b- Roll a thinner dough and place one pitta on top of the other while moistening with water the covered side and stick together by pushing firmly (avoid water on the edges). This will create one pitta composed of two sides with moisture in the middle thus allowing the formation of a pocket.

2- Bamboo stick are very practical but tend to burn. Soak the bamboo stick in warm water for approx 10 minutes to moisten them thoroughly and yet retain the firmness. When on the fire, the bamboo sticks will not turn into charcoal and impair the chicken/meat falvour.

On the other hand a bit of charred smell might give the rustic taste!

[Swisskaese]

Great job Pam! They look delcious.

[Pam R]

2- Bamboo stick are very practical but tend to burn. Soak the bamboo stick in warm water for approx 10 minutes to moisten them thoroughly and yet retain the firmness. When on the fire, the bamboo sticks will not turn into charcoal and impair the chicken/meat falvour.

On the other hand a bit of charred smell might give the rustic taste!

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I soaked them for a lot longer than 10 minutes - I don't understand why my bamboo always burns! they still tasted good

I will definately try different techniques with the pita when I get a chance - thanks for the ideas. (they still tasted good too though! )

[Pam R]

Update:

I tried them again last night. Less cumin and I added some baking powder. I didn't notice much of a difference in texture, though I liked this batch more. A different opinion was that the texture was better with the first batch. Same person also said that this was her new favorite meal! (yay!)

So it's making my column next week - thanks for all your help!

[Grub]

It might help stop the burning, if you wrap a little tinfoil around the ends of the bamboo sticks.