Animal fat

[jsolomon]

Joseph Mercola, to put it politely, is a crank.

←

I have to concur.

Dude's received warning letters from the FDA.

Edit to add: more stuff from quackwatch.org

Edited March 31, 2005 by jsolomon (log)

[Mabelline]

Gary, you have my sympathy. People seem to have a nearly pathological fear of fat. I can just suggest one thing past divorce and disowning. If you've got the bucks, get your wife's cholesterol done. She might be surprised.

Ingestion of fats are just as necessary as ingestion of fibers, minerals, the dreaded carb word, and water. Those who only eat vegs, in my experience, have had no stamina, as well as low disease resistance. As well as complexions like pasteboard. Without healthy fat, as well as a balance of the other necessary foods, the nails, skin, and hair are pretty well doomed to dryness and a brittle state.

Does your wife smoke, drink coffee, etc.?

I would throw them out of the kitchen and not cook special shit till they got hungry enougfh to try something. I realize that's a hard thing to do nowadays. When I was raised, and my kids were raised, you ate the meal set out, or you went hungry. And you did not make a bowl of cereal or something not already part of the family meal.

Olive oil? Man, she is crazy!! I bet she only wants lemon juice on stuff.

[redglass]

Does your wife/wife's mom/sister, etc. have problems/concerns/mania regarding with her weight? As I'm sure many women here can back me up on, one thing that I learned at an early age (from somewhere- not mom, she would take fat off my plate and eat it) was that "ladies who are cutting calories should remove all visible fat" from basically anything.

Does it make huge sense if you choose an equally fatty item over the meat? Maybe not.

But this could just be a reflex thing on your wife's part: fat I can see= BAD! Fat I can't see= well, maybe not so bad. I know that I wouldn't eat short ribs (the horror!) because if I'm going to eat 36g of fat worth of something, I want it to be bigger than 3 or 4 oz.

[CtznCane]

Here I thought I had it tough until seeing Gary's problem. I did the short rib braise too (though used boneless short ribs) and my s.o. ate them. She doesn't like the fat allegedly due to the textrue. If she can cut around the fat though it is fine.for the most part. Believe it or not though, Rib Eye Steaks are a no-no. Since I like them I buy filet mignon and rib eye then vacuum pack them 1 of each to alleviate that problem. One of my most favorite dishes is oxtails. There I'm on my own so rarely do I get that treat at home. With chicken it is white meat only. At least for the most part it is managelable.

Fish is another picky subject. Salmon is fine. Tuna on occasion and once in awhile filet of sole or catfish but again very limited.

Vegetable wise it is not too bad though there are some but she isn't keen on rice or risotto both of which I love .

As one who is open to eating just about anything and beyond that has only a few things I don't like, any level of restriction is frustrating. In trying to figure out what the roadblocks are, I'd break them down in this order;

1. Perception

2. Visual

3. Texture

4. Taste

Perception is the one most difficult to overcome. If she is totally opposed there is no window of opportunity.

Visual, with the fat she'll eat around it, but if she doesn't like the looks, it is close to impossible.

With texture, at least there is some reason. Not a real good one when one is really picky but at least there is some rational justification.

The one valid reason to me is taste and yet when I do get her to try something, this is seldom the reason.

After seeing Gary's post I think I'm going to consider myself lucky and at least for awhile not get too torqued when something I fix gets rejected by perception alone.

[peppyre]

I have a friend that is like this. When we used to work together we would have lunch at the deli in our building. They made these fantastic sandwiches which were basically just meat. He always ordered Capicollo, everytime. And everytime, he would sit there picking his lunch apart and pulling out every last scrap of fat from his meat. It was horrifying to watch. When my girlfriend married him, I thought she was nuts, especially when she started to develop his same quirks. This man was extremely skinny, I think he was about 160 lbs and 6'2", very pale and had developed alot of allergies over the years.

I truly feel for you. It's hard to cook a well-balanced meal that tastes good when you have so many irrational objections. I would be more concerned about your daughter though. Children should not be afraid of fat let alone their food and at the age that she is, these are the kind of fears that will stick with her as a teenager.

You can certainly eat healthy while still ingesting certain animal fats and it's all about moderation. I think that the suggestion of trying a nutritionist is a good one. Other than that, lock them out of the kitchen and try and get your wife to actually read the nutrition information on the frozen packaged food that she's eating.

Good luck!!!

[jsolomon]

You could sell your wife's car and buy her a bicycle, "because you're worried about how much exercise she's getting" Her increased caloric needs might make her CRAVE those short-ribs

[touaregsand]

fat I can see= BAD! Fat I can't see= well, maybe not so bad.

I think that this attitude is a huge part of the chronic diet struggle that some people go through. A huge part of feeling satiated and not overeating is satisfying the palate. Fat that is visible is fat that is much more satisfying in the mouth than hidden fat. Another problem is the delusion that hidden fat "maybe not so bad". It's worse because not only is it not as satisfying to "the fat tooth" but it's also very easy to eat more than intended all the while deluding oneselfs that "it's not so bad."

I've read some posts regarding dieting and trying to lose weight and it makes me a little sad when I read things like "I was bad today, I ate "X"" It's okay to indulge just not too much, inhale, enjoy, relish, savor, swallow...

[Viola da gamba]

My wife trims every spec of fat off the edge of pork chops too.  Only a perfectly lean cut will make it in her mouth.  A pile of trimmings are left on the plate.

I feel like Jack Sprat... in reverse. 

←

I feel your pain - I adore the fat on properly barbecued pork chops - particularly if marinated first in olive oil, soy & maple syrup - mmmmm I'm fortunate - part Chinese J will eat anything - except for pizza crusts, which he feeds to the dogs. And I'd walk over broken glass to have decent pork crackling.

I have to admit, though - I'm not that keen on animal fat cold. Ham, roast beef, lamb, bacon, etc., etc. - love the fat hot, really not that keen on it cold - and I've never been a fan of aspic.

I always thought it was, in part, at least, the fat that gives the flavour.

[Gary]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. 2005 was supposed to be my year to develop my cooking skills. It was my one and only New Year's resolution. So far I've done marshmallows, tarts, lemon curd, braising and some other stuff. 99% of the efforts have been met with "you are cooking stuff that will make me fat".

My wife has a decent interest in health. She shops at Whole Foods. She takes yoga classes. Her favorite foods are Middle Eastern (ie. Hummous, baba, pita, shawarma, etc).

I'm fighting a battle here. My side is based on Julia Child's principle that you can eat anything you want in moderation. My wife says she wants low calorie and low fat stuff... and NO visible fat on meats.

I do 75% of the cooking and grocery shopping. I've got a big sweet tooth too so most of my "fun" cooking is biased toward dessert.

In the spirit of marital bliss, I will try to alter my menus to meet her demands. The problem comes in trying to avoid boiled boneless skinless chicken breasts every day. Maybe I'll try an Asian theme and serve steamed fish for 2 weeks and see what kind of reaction I get.

I guess that I'll have to injest animal fat secretly while on business trips.

I'm open to suggestions from the forum on how to revise my menus. Any ideas that have worked for you?

[SobaAddict70]

My advice is to take it slow and show her that living well isn't about being an ascetic monk, no offense to ascetic monks and their fans.

Hummus and babaghannouj are not necessarily low fat or low calorie. I make a version on occasion that can make even a cardiologist sit up and take notice.

I think your wife's perception about what constitutes good food is largely in part due to misperceptions spread by the media and most people's general unwillingness to take good care of themselves. A little education often goes a long way.

I feel your pain and good luck.

Soba

ps. by the way, I've recently begun (in the past year and a half) a bodybuilding program and radically changed my diet. I can say that it's nowhere near as exciting or as fattening as it used to be. However, I think I would go crazy if I didn't have at least one cheat meal in moderation every once in a while. I can only ingest so many bowls of 2% cottage cheese before my taste buds scream in protest.

[winesonoma]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies.  2005 was supposed to be my year to develop my cooking skills.  It was my one and only New Year's resolution.  So far I've done marshmallows, tarts, lemon curd, braising and some other stuff.  99% of the efforts have been met with "you are cooking stuff that will make me fat".

My wife has a decent interest in health.  She shops at Whole Foods. She takes yoga classes.  Her favorite foods are Middle Eastern (ie. Hummous, baba, pita, shawarma, etc).

I'm fighting a battle here.  My side is based on Julia Child's principle that you can eat anything you want in moderation.  My wife says she wants low calorie and low fat stuff... and NO visible fat on meats.

I do 75% of the cooking and grocery shopping.  I've got a big sweet tooth too so most of my "fun" cooking is biased toward dessert.

In the spirit of marital bliss, I will try to alter my menus to meet her demands.  The problem comes in trying to avoid boiled boneless skinless chicken breasts every day.  Maybe I'll try an Asian theme and serve steamed fish for 2 weeks and see what kind of reaction I get.

I guess that I'll have to injest animal fat secretly while on business trips. 

I'm open to suggestions from the forum on how to revise my menus.  Any ideas that have worked for you?

←

Make what you want for yourself and give her the chicken breast every nite. I lived with a vegitarian/almost vegan. I ate what ever I wanted and let her fend for herself as I eat meat and lots of it.

[Jensen]

I'm open to suggestions from the forum on how to revise my menus.  Any ideas that have worked for you?

←

Low calorie, low fat does not have to be boring...

click

Edited to add that each point listed on my site is roughly equivalent to 50 calories.

Edited March 31, 2005 by Jensen (log)

[mizducky]

Complicating matters further is a general aversion to all spices and sauces by the kids, as well as a wife who says she likes lots of vegetables (except tomatoes, carrots, eggplant, cauliflower, peas, cucumber, celery and beans).

←

Y'know, somehow this has me even a little more concerned that your wife's apparently illogical reactions against fats. For the typical person who's deep into the low-fat eating thing, vegetables are usually their best friends and allies. Are there any vegetables she really *does* like to eat? Frankly, it's beginning to sound like it's not just an issue of wanting to eat "healthy," however we might question the logic behind that, but of some more complex issues about food altogether.

I've had some friends with very specific food aversions--they're typically deep-seated, usually learned really early, and not really subject to logic. With most it's just one or two foods that are deeply loathed, though I do have at least one friend for whom it's easier to list the foods she will eat as opposed to the ones she won't.

I even have one such aversion myself--I, who have been known to eat just about anything. I loathe canned tomato soup. I dunno why. Hated it since I was a kid. Color, smell, texture, all make me want to go *ick*. I love tomato anything else. Fresh, cooked, salsa, name it. I even love home-made tomato-based soups. But get that Campbell's out of my face and back on the wall where it belongs.

But the thing is, I'm not likely to starve or get beri-beri due to a lack of Campbell's in my life. Your wife may be making you crazy with her non-logical reaction to fats, but as she's eating sour cream and such her diet isn't lacking in them (though there's still some question there about your wife's concept of what's a healthy vs. unhealthy fat, with her rejection of olive oil and such). Not getting enough of the nutrition offered by vegetables, though, is a bit more troubling. As is leaning on pre-packaged foods, even if they came from the health food store (as others have already pointed out). Especially when one is dieting, shortchanging oneself on good nutrition is a recipe for getting oneself very very sick. I know, I've also been through some extremely kooky diets, and I can tell you it is Not Pretty.

I really do feel your wife might benefit from a consultation with a *good* nutritionist. Said nutritionist may wind up saying a lot of the same things you're trying to get through to her, but y'know, it's like the "consultant as witchdoctor" effect: sometime it takes an outsider with a fancy credential to lend credibility to the (already-existing) message.

[jsolomon]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies.  2005 was supposed to be my year to develop my cooking skills.  It was my one and only New Year's resolution.  So far I've done marshmallows, tarts, lemon curd, braising and some other stuff.  99% of the efforts have been met with "you are cooking stuff that will make me fat".

My wife has a decent interest in health.  She shops at Whole Foods. She takes yoga classes.  Her favorite foods are Middle Eastern (ie. Hummous, baba, pita, shawarma, etc).

...

I'm open to suggestions from the forum on how to revise my menus.  Any ideas that have worked for you?

←

Ouch. That's hard to come back from. I don't understand your wife's concept of what "will make me fat". But you could try things like stir frys which are relatively easy and high flavor with no visible fat. Brining the boneless skinless chicken breasts and roasting them as Barbara Kafka recommends at 500F for 20-25 minutes will also assist in making them edible.

Granted, my girlfriend has pulled the "you're going to make me fat" concept several times on me, and my only response is: "Great! Fat is happy!" and I continue to cook what I want to cook, and she can eat however much or little she wants. Unfortunately, this is a little more difficult when you've been in a relationship with someone for a while and there are pre-made comforts and habits.

When you made this resolution, what was your wife's response? I'm not suggesting tossing it back in her face, but you can always use the "crawl, walk, run" type of argument that you have to do some of these "higher fat" but "less advanced" types of cooking to be able to get the experience to cook things more like what she wants...

[Gary]

To give you a sense of my wife's diet, I offer up here a list of Good -vs- Bad foods in her book:

WILL EAT:

Hummus

Baba

Pita bread

Falafel (baked, not fried)

Pesto sauce (canned)

Pasta

Cream sauce

Rice (brown, white)

Risotto

Salmon, tilapia, whitefish

Broccoli

Spinach (salad)

Yogurt

Guacamole

Mashed potatoes

WILL NOT EAT:

Tomatoes (fresh, canned, chopped, sliced, etc... all are bad). May occasionally eat tomato sauce on pasta. Pesto sauce would be preferred.

Peas (too smelly)

Carrots (bad texture) Will drink carrot/apple juice out of the juicer.

Eggplant (OK only in baba gannougj)

Cauliflower (no nutritional value. tastes bad)

Beans (Navy, black, kidney, lima, etc... tastes bad)

Green beans (tastes bad)

Zucchini (except when made into bread)

Fatty meats (see multiple descriptions previously listed)

Catfish (weird psychological aversion)

Greens (collard, mustard, etc... tastes only of vinegar)

Pears (weird texture)

Peaches (too fuzzy)

Squash (needs too much butter/sugar before it tastes good... defeating nutritional value).

My wife's eating habits are affecting the kids. They love all the starchy foods (so do I) and are avoiding most green vegetables (except broccoli which gets served 4 times a week).

I don't want to turn my kids into a super-carnivore like their grandpa (3 eggs + 4 slices of bacon every day). I just want them to try a lot of stuff... including animal fat once in a while. It's not like I sit around and eat pork rinds all day. I've got some sense in me that tries to offer a well rounded meal. I come to eGullet and get humbled every day when I see what others served for dinner. My stuff looks like crap and is pretty basic. I'm hoping to elevate my skills this year and 2 out of my 3 guests for dinner each night are finicky (God bless my 3 year old boy... He will eat most anything!!).

I'm not buying a preconceived aversion to spices either. Lots of kids in India eat curry every day. Why can't mine eat pepper?

Harrumph.

[jhlurie]

I am not at all afraid of fat, however I don't like to eat very fatty meat - I just don't like the texture of the fat. I will leave it on to cook because it gives flavor, and then I'll eat the not so fatty bits (and let my husband steal the fatty bits from my plate  )

←

Isn't the key that the fat should be IN the meat (as in... marbled) rather than simply on or around it? Trimming is a good thing. But so is marbling.

[SobaAddict70]

I smell control issues, or perhaps not very good experiences during childhood.

I concur with most posters above -- time to get professional help before things get worse.

Soba

[rjwong]

Maybe it's time to see a nutritionist ...

Gary, beware! Anybody can call themselves a "nutritionist." Instead, find a Registered Dietitian (RD).

The following is from the American Dietetic Association website:

What is a Registered Dietitian?

A registered dietitian is a highly trained food and nutrition expert who has met stringent academic and professional requirements ...

.

[robyn]

Yep, those are short ribs, all right, though the onces I buy are a little less short.

A loooong braise, which is what you get in most FDR's, probably knocks 80% of the fat off, though. When I make them at home, it all but disappears from the meat and is skimmed from brazing liquid after an overnight set.  I suspect that, for red meat, they're relatively healthy -- especially when you consider that, when cooked in wine and stock, they're so rich that the non-bone portion is relatively small.

←

Thanks for the information. Then perhaps I have eaten them. I have had some delicious braised meat dishes in various restaurants over the years. I really don't care if they're healthy or not - I put this kind of food in the "occasional treat" category. E.g., when I cook steaks at home (perhaps once or twice a month) - I use ribeyes.

I guess now that I think a bit about it - I just don't like the texture of hunks of braised (i.e., non-crispy) fat. But I'm ready to shoot anyone who takes the crispy skin off of one of my turkeys and handles it in any manner which would make it soggy. Robyn

[robyn]

To give you a sense of my wife's diet, I offer up here a list of Good -vs- Bad foods in her book:

WILL EAT:

Hummus

Baba

Pita bread

Falafel (baked, not fried)

Pesto sauce (canned)

Pasta

Cream sauce

Rice (brown, white)

Risotto

Salmon, tilapia, whitefish

Broccoli

Spinach (salad)

Yogurt

Guacamole

Mashed potatoes

WILL NOT EAT:

Tomatoes (fresh, canned, chopped, sliced, etc... all are bad).  May occasionally eat tomato sauce on pasta.  Pesto sauce would be preferred.

Peas (too smelly)

Carrots (bad texture)  Will drink carrot/apple juice out of the juicer.

Eggplant (OK only in baba gannougj)

Cauliflower (no nutritional value.  tastes bad)

Beans (Navy, black, kidney, lima, etc... tastes bad)

Green beans (tastes bad)

Zucchini (except when made into bread)

Fatty meats (see multiple descriptions previously listed)

Catfish (weird psychological aversion)

Greens (collard, mustard, etc... tastes only of vinegar)

Pears (weird texture)

Peaches (too fuzzy)

Squash (needs too much butter/sugar before it tastes good... defeating nutritional value).

My wife's eating habits are affecting the kids.  They love all the starchy foods (so do I) and are avoiding most green vegetables (except broccoli which gets served 4 times a week).

I don't want to turn my kids into a super-carnivore like their grandpa (3 eggs + 4 slices of bacon every day).  I just want them to try a lot of stuff... including animal fat once in a while.  It's not like I sit around and eat pork rinds all day. I've got some sense in me that tries to offer a well rounded meal.  I come to eGullet and get humbled every day when I see what others served for dinner.  My stuff looks like crap and is pretty basic.  I'm hoping to elevate my skills this year and 2 out of my 3 guests for dinner each night are finicky (God bless my 3 year old boy... He will eat most anything!!).

I'm not buying a preconceived aversion to spices either.  Lots of kids in India eat curry every day.  Why can't mine eat pepper? 

Harrumph.

←

I have 2 thoughts. First - what does your wife look like - and what does she want to look like. There are some women I know who started out thin in life and want to stay that way. It gets harder and harder to do as you age - because your metabolism slows. I have one cousin who still looks like a model at almost 60 - but the only way she can do it is by eating next to nothing. Then there are people like me - kind of in the middle - or perhaps with a few extra pounds - but if we don't watch it - especially as we age - we'll wind up buying all our clothes in the "women's department" (2X-3X). I don't want to do that. And I'm sure I have lots of company. So I have to watch it. I once put on about 15 extra pounds (quite a few years ago) - and it took a year of almost nothing but grilled chicken breasts to get it off.

I note that it helps if the other people in your household share your metabolism. My husband is just like me. If he doesn't watch it - he'll be shopping in the "portly" department. So we're pretty careful about our diets a lot of the time - and we pick our indulgences carefully (and they're not always the same indulgences). My brother and his wife do not share metabolisms (he's prone to pack on pounds and she isn't). She's the main cook. He used to be thin - and I'd say he's now at least 40 pounds overweight.

If your wife is obese - well that's the subject of a whole 'nother thread (or threads). Or personal sessions with professionals. Brings up lots of psychological issues. By the way - you don't have to answer these questions. Just think about them.

Second - in terms of going over your list - the pasta with pesto thing stuck out. My husband and I love pasta - and we love pesto. I make it fresh during the summer. Eaten in moderation and without gobs of heavy cream sauces - pasta is great. And you can throw veggies into pasta - serve salads with it - etc. Learn to make it fresh if you have the time - get your wife and children involved in the process. If you don't have the time - buy it in the store. There are literally a zillion sauces for pasta - everything from olive oil and garlic to complex meat ragus. And that's just on the Italian side. There are Asian noodle dishes as well. So maybe this is an area you can explore - have fun with - and make everyone happy. Robyn

Edited March 31, 2005 by robyn (log)

[mizducky]

Hmmm ... I've got to say, those "WILL EAT/WON'T EAT" lists do strike me as much more about idiosyncratic food aversions than any kind of nutritional rules. She's avoiding fat, but wants to eat pesto, cream sauce, and avocados?!? And most recipes for hummus and baba gannouj I've ever seen contain a goodly amount of olive oil, and it's kind of hard to make a risotto without butter or oil.

And what's this business about her thinking cauliflower has no nutritional value?!? It's actually high in vitamin C, a fair source of iron, and one of those cruciferous vegetables touted by health authorities as helping to prevent cancer.

Also, I can't help noticing that a lot of the vegetables she rejects as having bad taste, smell, and/or texture are those that are legitimately nasty in their canned versions, and that often become nasty when overcooked to death as still happens in many American households. Did your wife grow up in a family that served such abused vegetables? That might have a lot to do with her aversions.

I'm not buying a preconceived aversion to spices either.  Lots of kids in India eat curry every day.  Why can't mine eat pepper? 

←

This at least is actually a bit more understandable. Lots of kids have still-developing digestive systems that are more highly sensitive to spices and strong flavors than adults. And it also has to do with exposure--kids in places like India with highly-spiced cuisines not only grew up with such food from the git-go, but experienced spices through their mothers during pregnancy and nursing, so their digestive systems are primed to handle them.

[Gary]

My wife wears a size 10 (or an 8 sometimes). She has never been "obese" even after 10 years of marriage (and my cooking).

I think Mizducky has it right. These are idiosyncracies. I'm no nutrition expert so the news has to come from an "expert".

I resolve to make some adjustments in my menus. No more braised short ribs. I'll substitute a brisket instead and shred it up and serve it on buns (sloppy joe style).

[touaregsand]

I resolve to make some adjustments in my menus. No more braised short ribs. I'll substitute a brisket instead and shred it up and serve it on buns (sloppy joe style).

That's a great step for you to take. Hopefully your wife will join you in taking steps toward eachother.

In our household we have to deal with and are enriched by food cultures from 4 continents. It took us 8 years to achieve some sort of balance. But I still complain that my husband doesn't like enough variety. To which he replies, "I'm almost 40 years old, you think I'm gonna change now?" or "Of course my love anything for you!" Depends on his mood and mine.

[petite tête de chou]

Gary,

When I met my husband about seven years ago he wouldn't eat any type of meat except skinless, boneless chicken breast, deli cut meats, ground turkey breast, only the turkey breast on Thanksgiving (still true) and an occassional grilled steak.

What can I say? He is a wonderful gent even if his taste in food was less than stellar. He wasn't raised by folks who knew how to cook and his past girlfriends were, obviously, not up to the task.

That said, when he met me I had an eating disorder for about 12 years and was, alternately, vegan and vegetarian (absolutely no animal meat or seafood). So. We were quite the pair. Instead of damning us BOTH to hell I stopped the bulimia/anorexia and have loosened (considerably so) my past restrictions on food. Especially meat.

I eat and cook all of the aforementioned meats. And it has been a slow process for both of us to eat a very fine cut of meat. By "very fine" I mean FATTY!! I've made slow braises with turkey legs and thighs. Steaks and chops with a ring of fat and truth be told I will nibble at the charred bits of fat before cutting most of it off and serving it to him. But he, and I, are coming along quite nicely.

I love and know how to cook meat. I prefer it on the rarer side. He, of course, does not. "Cook it allll the way through, babe." -sigh- I have taken to including a bit of the fat on a chop or steak, the skin on a breast and he actually eats it. Cool.

That said, I can't give you much insight on what to do in regards to cooking for yourself (the chef must be joyful in his/her endeavors) and your family. Try out lots of new spices or marinades. But this will only pacify you, the chef, and allow your family to taste only a wee bit of what is out there in terms of cuisine.

Best of luck.

[jsolomon]

If she's a beer drinker, to help her let her hair down, she could always see if there is a kennel of the Hash House Harriers close to assist her in loosening up