Is Tipping Big the New Black?

[rjwong]

Others act as if they have a license to abuse the staff by virtue of sitting their ass in the dining room. One friend actually said to a runner who had the misfortune of bringing his appetizer with the entrees "That just cost you your tip." The server rushed over to see what was the matter and when I pointed out that that could easily have been a kitchen error, he said to the server  "Well, then you tell the kitchen they just cost you your tip." I thought she was going to burst into tears. And I was mortified.

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monkey2000, I'm still mortified. That really presses my button when a "friend" acts so nasty in public. Bother!!

Most people I know are in the habit of doubling the G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax which is 7%) and then rounding up to the nearest $1 or $5; this is for good, not great service.  Tips for great service run, on average, in the 20% to 25% range.

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Just after Christmas, I went with a couple of friends to this nice restaurant in downtown LA. The service was excellent. What got my attention was when my napkin was refolded and properly placed after I returned from the restroom! I definitely tipped well for that dinner.

Mooshmouse, in Los Angeles area, the state sales tax is 8.25%. Normally for me, I start tipping at over 15% by doubling the 8.25% tax portion of the bill. For great service, I go 20% or just over that. Also, I tip in cash, not on the credit card. Oh boy! Compared to the rest of you guys, I'm really chintzy! My tipping needs to be kicked up a notch, ehh??

[fiftydollars]

Is 25% a more appropriate rule-of-thumb percentage on restaurant tips? More? At what point should I feel comfortable that the staff has been adequately compensated for providing high quality service? By which I mean in most situations. Of course if the staff goes above and beyond (food or drink not reflected in the bill, the Heimlich maneuver) there really is no limit. But for your average situation where you go to a great restaurant and get a good meal and service. What is a good rule-of-thumb percentage?

[Irishgirl]

All of this "Tipping" business is really difficult. A lot of people are implying that they tip well, or are possibly overtipping....

My question is: Are you basing your tip on the before tax total or the final total?

Being an industry person, i always tip on the final total. But friends that are well travelled and quite well off tell me that it is incorrect to tip on the tax. They always tip on the before tax total and think that they are tipping well.

All the waitstaff I know base their calculations on final total....and 15% is the MINIMUM that they are happy with.

so what is the right protocol?

I do not tip well for bad service.

[jackal10]

We have debated this on other threads. IMO Tipping is a foul demeaning practice to be avoided. Restaurants should pay their staff properly.

I am a very occasional traveller I am unlikley to return to the same restaurant or be served by the same staff.

If I have to tip, I'd do it before service rather than after.

[tokyogurumegal]

I think in general in Canada people tip around 15%. I travel to US cities on business often and was advised by the bean counting department head it is "okay" to tip 20% in the US because that is what is expected.

My question is, when you calculate tip do you base it on the tax inclusive or exclusive figure? I usually put 20% on the final total just to be safe. I've lived in outside of Japan for a long time now but I still don't get this part of the culture! My last trip home, I was blown away how much cheaper it is to dine in Tokyo because of the no tipping thing.

[Tepee]

Coming from a no-tipping culture, I found it incomprehensible that, after a lousy service from a smart-talking and rude waitress, our host friend in D.C. added 20% to the check at one swanky sushi restaurant when we visited him in '97. Major culture shock.

[Taboni]

I too am curious about the policy of tipping on the pretax or total. Which do you do? I tip on the total amount but I am wondering if I should be tipping pretax?

I know there are probably tons of people reading this thread who may be afraid to speak up but I really am not that bothered generally about what people think so I will step forward and say that I think 20% is a fair tip and 25% is a good tip. I wish I were as rich as everyone else who posted here saying they tip a minimum of 20% all the time and frequently 30% or more. When my wife and I can rarely get away with a meal for under $50 per person I really have a tough time adding more than 20% to the bill. Call me cheap if you wish, as I really don't care. I firmly believe that there are 2 types of people who should tip excessively: the very rich, because a little to them means a whole lot to the waitstaff, and those who are dining on business since it isn't coming out of your pocket anyway. Honestly if I were to adopt a more generous tipping policy as is the subject of this thread (30%+) we would not be able to eat out as often as we do. What would the waitstaff prefer? 20% 3 or 4 times a month or 30%+ once a month. I think I know what I would choose.

[TheFoodTutor]

Also, I cannot stand it when a waiter/waitress illustrates a strong sense of entitlement to receive a certain tip regardless of whether or not they make any effort to do their job.  Providing service to the customer is their job, and if they do not do their job, I don't think they should feel entitled to be paid for it.  Plain and simple.  While I have never worked in the food business, I have worked.  I don't see anything special about the food business that should set it apart from any other kind of business.  For a person to be entitled to be paid, I think they ought to be doing their job.  For me, it's that simple.

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I don't think it should be set apart from any other type of business, either. If you work in non-tipped professions, and you inevitably come in hung over one day, or it's the first day of your menstrual cycle and you have bad cramps, or you have a mild case of food poisoning, or your mother just called and grilled you for something, your job will probably suffer somewhat, and of course on other days you'll do your job perfectly well. But on that day that you suffered a little, you still make the same money you always make. If you earn $8 an hour, you still get paid that $8 an hour, even if you took somewhat fewer phone calls that day because you had a headache. Or if you earn $30K a year, you still make that $30K per year, even if, on that one day, you were a littler slower at filling out your regular paperwork.

For servers who rely on tips, however, this is not so. See? They are set apart, even though you don't think they should be.

I'd have to say that observing restaurant customer behavior does have a high correlation with tipping well. Just looking at the things that people write on credit card slips, while amusing, can give you a glimpse into some really nasty aspects of the human psyche. Recently, I saw (on another server's tab) a note that circled the tip amount with big arrows that said "10% for NO TO GO CUPS OF WATER. Get cups of water to go, TIP ------->20%!" Now, that's just silly. The restaurant's policy is to not carry to go cups, and the server has no decision in that matter. So reducing the tip for that complaint is just ignorant.

I tip 20% pretty much all of the time, and usually overtip if I get comped for something or if I receive special service. For bad service, I tip 18%, and if I feel that it will help to point out to management the specific aspects of my service that went wrong, I do. The last time I dropped a tip for bad service was because my server forgot to ring my check in, and he chose to handle it by telling me that the cooks lost our ticket. As I was sitting with my boyfriend, who happens to be, ahem, a line cook, I didn't appreciate that.

[Busboy]

I am an ex-waiter and have no problem going well below 20% if the service warrants it which happens -- I don't know, twice a year. I find it logically inconsistent to overtip, or to be expected to overtip, in the case of excellent service, and yet to not have the right to undertip in the case of terrible service.

I once worked in a swank French joint where, as is the case in many top-end restaurants, menues were not brought out until guests have an opportunity to sip their drinks, take a deep breath, and shift gears in preparation for a (more often than not) relaxing and delightful evening. One night we had a table of eight, hosted by the scion of a very (VERY) wealthy and reclusive local family. He was clearly a little out of his element all night but, when we read the lengthy, handwritten note he left instead of a tip on a $1000+ tab, we found that the one thing that had clearly pissed him off was not getting the menu the moment he sat down.

C'est la vie, I guess.

[tammylc]

Thought I'd ask a question that might add a different perspective to this discussion.  What's the difference in minimum and average wages for FOH staff in the U.S. versus Canada?  Could this account for the difference in tipping habits between Americans and Canadians?

Most people I know are in the habit of doubling the G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax which is 7%) and then rounding up to the nearest $1 or $5; this is for good, not great service.  Tips for great service run, on average, in the 20% to 25% range.

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Servers in Canada earn at least the standard minimum wage per hour. In the US, there is a lower minimum wage for people who are expected to get tips - it can be as low as just a couple dollars per hour. Which is why my tipping almost always starts at 20% in the US. I will leave as low as 10% for appallingly bad or rude service.

Someone said that they start at 15% for diners and 20% for more upscale restaurants. I do the opposite - it's not uncommon for me to tip 30% or 40% on a cheap diner lunch - I always leave at least $1, and when I go to a diner where I can get a hamburger, fries and coleslaw for $2.65, that only seems fair.

[emmapeel]

Someone said that they start at 15% for diners and 20% for more upscale restaurants.  I do the opposite - it's not uncommon for me to tip 30% or 40% on a cheap diner lunch - I always leave at least $1, and when I go to a diner where I can get a hamburger, fries and coleslaw for $2.65, that only seems fair.

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Good point, and taken! But a burger deluxe here is $10.00, and I never leave less than $2.00 at a diner, even if it's tea and toast, which might be $2.65. So I stand corrected.

[kurl]

I always calculate tip on the post-tax amount. I'll generally tip 15% at diners and places like that which are not fancy and at which the waiters are generally responsible for a relatively large number of tables. At nicer places, I generally tip 20%; if the service is particularly good, I'll often tip more -- 30%ish maybe -- and if it's bad (and that badness can be attributed to the waiters, not to dishes taking too long from the kitchen), I'll tip as low as 15% (again, post-tax). Still, it's relatively rare (a couple of times a year) that I receieve service I feel is truly bad at a decent place.

[Peachpie9]

I think 20% is a fair tip and 25% is a good tip.

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I agree completely.

When my wife and I can rarely get away with a meal for under $50 per person I really have a tough time adding more than 20% to the bill.  Honestly if I were to adopt a more generous tipping policy as is the subject of this thread (30%+) we would not be able to eat out as often as we do. What would the waitstaff prefer? 20% 3 or 4 times a month or 30%+ once a month. I think I know what I would choose.

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Hi Taboni,

Your calculations do not quite hold up. If you and your wife spend $50 per person to dine out, that's $100, $120 with a 20% tip. Done four times per month, you spend a total of $480 per month on dining out.

The same dinner with a 30% tip would total $130, which you could enjoy 3.69 times per month for the $480 you are already spending. Increasing your tipping percentage from 20% to 30% would mean that you enjoyed 0.31 fewer two-person dinners out per month, or about one fewer two-person dinner out every three and a half months.

That said, I think your tipping habits are perfectly respectable as they are. That's my opinion, which counts for nothing here. What counts is what YOU feel is fair. Tipping is a personal, optional and confidential practice that should be done according to each person's conscience. If you feel you tip too low and must curtail your dining out activities in order to accomodate a fairer rate, I say that's the honorable thing to do (again, opinion).

My son is studying law and working at a nice restaurant to pay his bills. He tells me that he hates to see a family with young children come to his area because they will more likely than not require lots of his time and attention, and even more likely tip lowly.

Harking back to when my children were small, our incomes were less, and the deep pleasure of sitting with my family at a table and enjoying a nice meal was one of the few treats upon which we spent money (we tipped 15% in those days), I try to remind him of that. I tell him I hope that he will treat them like princesses and princes, because there will be plenty of people along the way who will make abundantly clear to them the "error" of their ways. In the meantime, although no monetary gain will come his way, he can be a part of a very sweet time in a young family's life. By the way, when I dine there, and a certain handsome young man attends us, I tip 100%.

As to the before tax/after tax issue, proper etiquette (at least what I have read and what I was originally taught) is to tip on the before-tax amount. One reason for this is illustrated by the fact that I live close to the line between two states, one where the tax rate is 6% and one where it's 9%. Why would I tip less because a state's tax rate is less? I don't.

The impact of pre- vs. post-tax tipping in the 9% state, on a $20 tip, is $0.36. I calculate my tip by upping the before-tax meal price to the next largest whole dollar, calculating my tip, and upping the resultant tip amount to the next largest whole dollar. I then add the whole-dollar tip to the whole-dollar meal cost and pay that. I'm pretty sure I usually add at least $0.36 over my tip percentage, and I feel it's equitable with respect to the differing tax rates in the two states.

I thought it out so I could dispatch paying for meals with ease, fairness and speed. I am an accountant and I quantify pretty much everything. When I go out on the town, though, here's what I like to think about: people first (including the wait staff), food next, and dead last, money.

Catherine

Edited March 30, 2005 by Peachpie9 (log)

[lala]

I usually start by doubling the tax, which here in Seattle (King County, where we're paying for two stadiums with this tax) is 9%. So my base tip is 18%, and better service gets a better tip.

Unfortunately, I'm innumerate, so when I travel, I have to ascertain the tax rate, so I can calculate based on that.

[tammylc]

Re. tipping and children - as the mother of an 11 month old baby who has a tendency to leave a pile of Cheerios and other food bits on the floor, when I'm out with him I tend to tip more than 20% to make up for the inconvience. Especially when I get a server who treats us well instead of acting like children shouldn't be allowed to leave the house.

[jglazer75]

Also, I cannot stand it when a waiter/waitress illustrates a strong sense of entitlement to receive a certain tip regardless of whether or not they make any effort to do their job.  Providing service to the customer is their job, and if they do not do their job, I don't think they should feel entitled to be paid for it. 

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Actually what drives me BONKERS are the places that include gratuity in the bill. What a useless thing to do, because it is NEVER the amount that I would have given them (often they charge 18% and I normally start at 20% and go from there). But, if it is included the server, even if they are the greatest server in the known universe, will NOT get an extra tip. If they have a complaint about it, they can take it up with their manager or whoever instituted that ridiculous policy. 9 times out of 10 the policy is there to snag people who don't realize that tip was included in the price. I understand that tip, for larger tables, is included because they don't want the server getting screwed on a big table, but come on, have some respect for your customers.

[Susan G]

9 times out of 10 the policy is there to snag people who don't realize that tip was included in the price. I understand that tip, for larger tables, is included because they don't want the server getting screwed on a big table, but come on, have some respect for your customers.

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Edited March 30, 2005 by Susan G (log)

[TheFoodTutor]

Actually what drives me BONKERS are the places that include gratuity in the bill. What a useless thing to do, because it is NEVER the amount that I would have given them (often they charge 18% and I normally start at 20% and go from there). But, if it is included the server, even if they are the greatest server in the known universe, will NOT get an extra tip. If they have a complaint about it, they can take it up with their manager or whoever instituted that ridiculous policy. 9 times out of 10 the policy is there to snag people who don't realize that tip was included in the price. I understand that tip, for larger tables, is included because they don't want the server getting screwed on a big table, but come on, have some respect for your customers.

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Actually, I work at a restaurant that autograts all parties of 5 or more, adding 18% to the bill. I can tell you with absolute certainty that we don't do it to try to cheat people into paying an extra tip because a) we actually are forced by the company to write in the 18% amount on the slip and total it out b) we mark in bright, red ink stamp that 18% is included on every copy of every bill and every credit card slip and c) while some rare people choose to change the tip to 20%, and a few people choose to scratch it out and change it to 15% (even if the difference is sometimes as little as 30 cents), I have never seen an incident where even a single person unknowingly left more as a result of the autograt.

We do it, unfortunately, because the incidence of people who would otherwise leave a tip far less than 18% is simply so great at this particular restaurant that we can't take the gamble of not adding it on large parties. I wish that I could take you there and show you what I mean for just one day so that you would understand.

But once you've made the decision to autograt large parties, you must do it for all of them. You cannot choose to grat English people but not Scottish people, or young people but not old people, or purple people but not blue people, because the risk of lawsuits will be strong.

[SWISS_CHEF]

Ten years ago I was a chef in Vermont and during leaf-peeping season we got slammed every day by huge bus loads of tourists. Chefs are paid by the hour and we got the same pay even if we served 200 people an hour, at the same time the wait-staff came in howling about one fifty dollar tip after the other. It wouldn't piss me off if just once in a while a customer would come in the kitchen and say thanks to a chef too. Before tipping, I ALWAYS go to the kitchen first and say thank you to the chefs.

Edited March 30, 2005 by SWISS_CHEF (log)

[NulloModo]

Well, first off, I always tip on the pre-tax part of the bill, but then again, I live in a state with no sales-tax, and feel it is my duty to rebel against the concept of sales-tax in general. Infact, every time I go to Canada I am quite upset that I am charged not one, but two types of sales tax on dinner checks, this is becoming even more painful with the declining dollar.

I also recall when 15% we considered the norm, and from what I understand from other folks, 10% used to be the norm, so it worries me that what is expected keeps going up.

I also don't have pity that the waitstaff is paid mostly in tips. They got into that profession knowing how it was from the start. Waitstaff aren't the only people paid purely on job performance, there are legions of salespeople paid on commission on only what they do in their day at work, I used to be one of them, and honestly, I like the system, a lot. If you are good enough you can make a ton even on a bad day, but it takes drive, dedication, and the ability to put personal concerns out of your head and put on your work-face. It isn't for everyone, but for those cut out for it, sales or service, it can be a gold-mine.

Now, that being said, these days I tend to tip at least 20%, mainly because it is easier mental math than 15%. I also have this odd misgiving about leaving the check at something other than a whole dollar amount, so I add extra cents to my tip to bring it up, but that is more of an OCD thing. I also seem to tip higher because the main time I go out to restaurants is when I am on dates, and I understand girls look at that sorta thing now, oh well. Then again, my crowd and I tend to prefer places that are anything but fine dining, so a 20$ tip is often just $5 or less, so no biggie.

I do often tip a lot more for exceptional service when out with friends. Pretty much our rule is that no matter what we split tip equally, no matter what we each had, so flirty/personable waitstaff have often gotten 100% tips. Then again, around here the kneeling down and drawing smiley faces on checks things tends to draw ire instead of admiration, oh well, I like it.

[tammylc]

I also don't have pity that the waitstaff is paid mostly in tips.  They got into that profession knowing how it was from the start.  Waitstaff aren't the only people paid purely on job performance, there are legions of salespeople paid on commission on only what they do in their day at work, I used to be one of them, and honestly, I like the system, a lot.  If you are good enough you can make a ton even on a bad day, but it takes drive, dedication, and the ability to put personal concerns out of your head and put on your work-face.  It isn't for everyone, but for those cut out for it, sales or service, it can be a gold-mine.

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The flaw with your sales argument is that customers aren't the ones deciding if your commission should be 3%, 6% or 15%.

[Busboy]

I think 20% is a fair tip and 25% is a good tip.

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I agree completely.

When my wife and I can rarely get away with a meal for under $50 per person I really have a tough time adding more than 20% to the bill.  Honestly if I were to adopt a more generous tipping policy as is the subject of this thread (30%+) we would not be able to eat out as often as we do. What would the waitstaff prefer? 20% 3 or 4 times a month or 30%+ once a month. I think I know what I would choose.

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That said, I think your tipping habits are perfectly respectable as they are. That's my opinion, which counts for nothing here. What counts is what YOU feel is fair. Tipping is a personal, optional and confidential practice that should be done according to each person's conscience.

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Not true, really. In the US, tipping is obligatory, in a social contract kind of way, and the rate is 15-20%. Outside of extreme circumstances, whether or not the person leaving the tip feels it is fair is a secondary consideration, at best.

[nwyles]

In general, I find that I am a good tipper. I have tipped up to 100 % for excellent service in an enviroment that perhaps would not attract people with that caliber of skill. I never really worry about pre or post tax figures - I just take into account how I was treated and if anyone ever had to go the extra mile. I always add an extra $5 to $10 if I am dining with kids and some extra cleanup is involved.

I get annoyed at people who say they do not believe in tipping, or that the industry should just pay better etc. That is the custom in North America. We all live with it. I think it is just a catch-all phrase for really saying you are a cheap prick. Do you think that my making your little stand that you are going to change the industry. Bear in mind that you benefit from the sometimes low wages in the form of low prices. Try saying " I do not believe in taxes " and refuse to pay them. See how far you get with that. This is the dining custom that has evolved here. Deal with it. If you do not believe in tips, do not dine out. Make your stand at home.

[Susan G]

"I will step forward and say that I think 20% is a fair tip and 25% is a good tip.

Honestly if I were to adopt a more generous tipping policy as is the subject of this thread (30%+) we would not be able to eat out as often as we do. What would the waitstaff prefer? 20% 3 or 4 times a month or 30%+ once a month. I think I know what I would choose."

I agree with your first statement.

I ran the numbers on the second one. The difference between a 20% tip and a 30% tip on a $50 bill is five dollars. You're saying you're willing to pay a monthy total of $30-40 in tips, but a single, generous tip of $15 strikes you as unreasonable?

[halloweencat]

I also don't have pity that the waitstaff is paid mostly in tips.  They got into that profession knowing how it was from the start.  Waitstaff aren't the only people paid purely on job performance, there are legions of salespeople paid on commission on only what they do in their day at work, I used to be one of them, and honestly, I like the system, a lot.  If you are good enough you can make a ton even on a bad day, but it takes drive, dedication, and the ability to put personal concerns out of your head and put on your work-face.  It isn't for everyone, but for those cut out for it, sales or service, it can be a gold-mine.

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The flaw with your sales argument is that customers aren't the ones deciding if your commission should be 3%, 6% or 15%.

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true, but it's also worth noting that there are plenty of jobs that are purely commission-based in which people are entirely clueless about the system, leading to much anguish for the salesfolks.

as an anecdote, i worked for a short time at a purely/only commission sales job. i +only+ got paid when people bought from me, and then i only received my money when the items were delivered (sometimes months and months later...it was furniture). and sometimes the items were returned -- which meant the company would take that money/comission out of my paycheck +that they had already paid me+ (and which i might have spent -- and customers could return items for up to three months).

there were many occasions for many of the sales folk who worked patiently with customers to set up a sale...only to discover that they wound up disregarding the fact that you helped them (which prevented you from earning money with other customers) and placed the order with someone else or another store. that was really heartbreaking. they didn't think. or it wasn't convenient for them. or they didn't know. and it's +very+ tough to try to communicate what "we work on commission here" really means to someone who doesn't know.

i can appreciate why those who have been in (or are) in the food service industry take care with tipping or are extra-considerate of the servers. when i go into a store, i'm careful to ask if the staff works on commission, for similar reasons. while i learned important things from my short experience, i know i never want to be in that position again. and i have much sympathy for those who are.

some of these jobs can have advantages compared to others, and in another situation, that advantage may be reversed.

commission work, be it sales or service, is a tough gig.

cheers :)

hc

edited to add: my commission was 6%, which was considered generous.

Edited March 30, 2005 by halloweencat (log)