Is Tipping Big the New Black?

[JimH]

...I loved that I had a great relationship with my customers

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You hit the nail on the head HBK, it's a relationship. It's the way it's done here, good servers make more money the the lackluster servers. In a way they are "self-employed", their wage determined by how hard they work and their attentiveness to their clients. (Sadly that's not always true, great service can still result in getting stiffed) Prior to my exposure to the food industry I followed the 15% rule but having experienced the server's world - the service would have to be really bad to leave less than 15%.

I've also picked up on the habit of tipping the maid when I stay at a hotel. Do they do that in Europe?

[Poffertjes]

I never tip.

I am unlikely to return, and being European I am used to not tipping.  I do not care what the server thinks of me after they have served the meal.

I fail to see why the restaurant should advertise prices 20% below the actual price, nor collude in a tax evasion, nor make the server beg or prostitute themselves.

I am not trying to make a relationship with the servers. Their role is to take my order and bring the plates, wine etc. Their pay and quality standards are  a matter for the restaurant management, not me.

If I want to praise and reward exceptional food or service above the norm I would write to the restaurant's managment, next day or next week.

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I think we should give Jackal10 the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't understand how restaurant workers are paid in the US, which is very unlike the European system.

There is a sub-minimum wage by law in the US for restaurant workers because it is assumed that they make tips. I do not know the laws in all states, but in Pennsylvania, where I last worked in the States, the legal wage was 2.01$ per hour and waiters had to claim either a fixed percentage of their sales or the total of their credit card tips, which ever is higher, as taxable wage. Restaurants can get in a lot of trouble if servers do not declare their tips and where I last worked, servers paid their taxes on a weekly basis, which meant that we owed the restaurant money since our pay did not cover our taxes owed.

And so, fear not, the American server is indeed paying taxes on the amount of every bill, regardless of whether they are tipped or not.

This is the system, like it or not ,and so it seems that if someone knowingly doesn't tip at all for good service, it's a little like saying to anyone you might hire to perform a service, after he's finished the job, 'I just don't feel like paying for this service', which doesn't appear all that fair.

It has nothing to do with making a relationship; it is about paying for a service you have asked for by sitting down. Now, if someone doesn't know that servers only work for tips in the US, that is a different story.

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It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that Jackal10 understands the system, to an extent, but doesn't agree with it, and therefore, is unwilling to participate in it.

If that is the case I encourage like minded non-tippers-because-the-system-is-bad not to participate in the entire system. Why eat in restaurants in the United States if you do no agree with the system, with some exceptions, encompasses almost all restaurants in the United States?

[JimH]

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that Jackal10 understands the system, to an extent, but doesn't agree with it, and therefore, is unwilling to participate in it.

If that is the case I encourage like minded non-tippers-because-the-system-is-bad not to participate in the entire system. Why eat in restaurants in the United States if you do no agree with the system, with some exceptions, encompasses almost all restaurants in the United States?

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He understands it and outlines his case on page 3 or 4. If you want to avoid tipping, then you can eat at cafeterias. Every large city here seems to have one or two stand alone cafeterias that sell really good food. Not upscale cuisine but usually really good versions of local dishes at a reasonable price.

[Felice]

I've also picked up on the habit of tipping the maid when I stay at a hotel.  Do they do that in Europe?

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I don't know about Europe in general but at least in France the minimum wage is higher than in the States and includes health care, pension, 5 weeks vacation pay and other benefits and everyone is entitled to this. However, it is not an enormous amount and so I always leave a little extra but at least you know people can live off of what they make, which is not always the case with the US minimum wage.

[JimH]

I've also picked up on the habit of tipping the maid when I stay at a hotel.  Do they do that in Europe?

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I don't know about Europe in general but at least in France the minimum wage is higher than in the States and includes health care, pension, 5 weeks vacation pay and other benefits and everyone is entitled to this. However, it is not an enormous amount and so I always leave a little extra but at least you know people can live off of what they make, which is not always the case with the US minimum wage.

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I was just curious in a non-political way. I picked this up from Japanese businessmen visiting Houston. I can appreciate how hard those ladies work to earn a living and have no problem leaving a couple of dollars under a pillow.

I apologize for going off topic but the differences in culture made me curious.

[jackal10]

There are a few high end restaurants and private clubs in the US that pay their staff properly, charge correctly and do not expect tips.

The problem is the majority of management continues to exploit the staff with such an unfair system. It means the majority of staff costs are variable costs, so that if the restaurant, through no fault of the staff has a poor night or two, then the staff take the hit. Yes running a restaurant is tough, but not that long ago the standard tip was 10%. Where will it stop?

If I tip the server, the what about the busboy, the cleaners, the water boy, the sommelier, bribe the greeter for a decent table, to say nothing of the line chefs, the garde manger, the plongeurs who also work hard and do tough jobs for poor money? Typical wage costs are about 33% - should that all come from tips?

Even more ridiculous I am expected to tip if the service was sub-standard or the food poor. It means the prices are 20% over those advertised. Why does the restaurant lie about the price? Who do they think they are kidding?

The system causes (at least it did the last time I was there) horrors like the server (whom I do not know from Adam) writing cutsy saccharine personal messages on the check. Since this is done for everyone the insincerity is appaling. There are handbooks on how to flirt wih your customer to maximise the tip. Ugh!

Maybe I should negotiate the cost of service beforehand, or even better specify the optional parts (no bread or water thanks, and I'll pour my own wine). Self service? Or the one time Russian system where the wait staff buy the food from the kitchen and re-sell it to the customer.

I am amazed the corrupt and corrupting tipping system continues, where everyone, not least the staff, loses.

Edited February 13, 2008 by jackal10 (log)

[Amyl]

Oooookay, Mr. Pink.

You are smart not to make return visits. Waitrons have amazing long memories because the management often forgets to run a full system wipe on a regular basis.

[hummingbirdkiss]

There are a few high end restaurants and private clubs in the US that pay their staff properly, charge correctly and do not expect tips.

The problem is  the majority of management continues to exploit the staff with such an unfair system.  It means the majority of staff costs are variable costs, so that if the restaurant, through no fault of the staff has a poor night or two, then the staff take the hit. Yes running a restaurant is tough, but not that long ago the standard tip was 10%. Where will it stop?

If I tip the server, the what about the busboy, the cleaners, the water boy, the sommelier,  bribe the greeter for a decent table, to say nothing of the line chefs, the garde manger, the plongeurs who also work hard and do tough jobs for poor money? Typical wage costs are about 33% - should that all come from tips?

Even more ridiculous I am expected to tip if the service was sub-standard or the food poor.  It means the prices are 20% over those advertised. Why does the restaurant lie about the price? Who do they think they are kidding?

The system causes (at least it did the last time I was there) horrors like the server (whom I do not know from Adam) writing cutsy saccharine personal messages on the check.  Since this is done for everyone the insincerity is appaling. There are handbooks on how to flirt wih your customer to maximise the tip. Ugh!

Maybe I should negotiate the cost of service beforehand, or even better specify the optional parts (no bread or water thanks, and I'll pour my own wine). Self service? Or the one time Russian system where the wait staff buy the food from the kitchen and re-sell it to the customer.

I am amazed the corrupt and corrupting tipping system continues, where everyone, not least the staff, loses.

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I am sure you think you understand this system but obviously you don't ...yes in every field there is exploitation and abuse ..but I can honestly say I think you underestimate servers ability to fend for themselves in the industry! I was in a Union for most of my career and we were given healthcare, vacation and sick leave...I considered myself a private contractor for the most part and worked hard for those tips..they paid my bills and helped me achieve my goals ..and honestly if I did not want so badly to become a nurse then I would not have felt any less pride in remaining a server..feeding people is a labor of love!!! ..I never felt used or abused..if I had I would have quit my job and moved on ..there are a lot of positions for people out there....I do not feel our system is currupt (well any system is to some extent but)

and have to say ..when you come here and boycott it because you misunderstand and do not like it ..well you are hurting and individuals daily wage...not changing what you percieve to be a "currupt" system... I appreciate your opinion Jackel but we do have this as part of our culture in the US and it is like anything else when you travel you should respect that..I would respect your culture and not tip if you like.(although I do tip when I travel and it has never been handed back to me as an insult) ..we have the right to work and earn money ...if someone can hustle and make more money by working harder and being better at their jobs I think it is a good thing!

we tip in the US and I am glad we do!

and yes I tip the cleaning staff of hotels ...delivery folks...anyone who earns it ..gets one from me...

[Busboy]

There are a few high end restaurants and private clubs in the US that pay their staff properly, charge correctly and do not expect tips.

The problem is  the majority of management continues to exploit the staff with such an unfair system.  It means the majority of staff costs are variable costs, so that if the restaurant, through no fault of the staff has a poor night or two, then the staff take the hit. Yes running a restaurant is tough, but not that long ago the standard tip was 10%. Where will it stop?

If I tip the server, the what about the busboy, the cleaners, the water boy, the sommelier,  bribe the greeter for a decent table, to say nothing of the line chefs, the garde manger, the plongeurs who also work hard and do tough jobs for poor money? Typical wage costs are about 33% - should that all come from tips?

Even more ridiculous I am expected to tip if the service was sub-standard or the food poor.  It means the prices are 20% over those advertised. Why does the restaurant lie about the price? Who do they think they are kidding?

The system causes (at least it did the last time I was there) horrors like the server (whom I do not know from Adam) writing cutsy saccharine personal messages on the check.  Since this is done for everyone the insincerity is appaling. There are handbooks on how to flirt wih your customer to maximise the tip. Ugh!

Maybe I should negotiate the cost of service beforehand, or even better specify the optional parts (no bread or water thanks, and I'll pour my own wine). Self service? Or the one time Russian system where the wait staff buy the food from the kitchen and re-sell it to the customer.

I am amazed the corrupt and corrupting tipping system continues, where everyone, not least the staff, loses.

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I'm touched by your concern for the staff, too bad it doesn't extend to paying the portion of their livelihood that you have informally contracted to pay when you sat down to eat. In fact, for all your feigned outrage -- or do you really care about waitress notes? -- you do nothing to change the traditional arrangement that doesn't benefit yourself and only yourself.

Again, a crass rationalization for boorish (at best) behavior.

[jackal10]

Thats the point. I have not contracted to pay the staff formally or informally. A tip is a reward for exceptional service, not a way of subsidising the restaurant allowing it to pay poor wages.

Since I am legally contracted to pay nothing, I will.

[Busboy]

Thats the point. I have not contracted to pay the staff formally or informally. A tip is a reward for exceptional service, not a way of subsidising the restaurant  allowing it to pay poor wages.

Since I am legally contracted to pay nothing, I will.

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You construct a straw man and blow it down.

As you well know, a tip, in America, today, is part of the price of doing business, however much you may pretend otherwise. Not legally binding, but assumed. You are committing a scam on a person who delivers a service to you on the good faith that he or she will be compensated appropriately.

Had you real convictions, you would tell the server up front that you do not tip (it's for their own good, after all, right?), and then let the meal play out as it will. Instead, you slink away after, confident that the mark will never see you again. Not so much a jackal as a weasel.

[Poffertjes]

Thats the point. I have not contracted to pay the staff formally or informally. A tip is a reward for exceptional service, not a way of subsidising the restaurant  allowing it to pay poor wages.

Since I am legally contracted to pay nothing, I will.

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If that is the case, why don't you keep your culinary experiences in the United States limited to food service locations where a tip is not expected or required. McDonald's and the like would surely accept your business.

[jackal10]

If the restaurant states that a service charge is added, then I will pay that.

I am happy to explain to the server that I do not tip and why. I expect I will still be served (I always have been so far, but it is a few years since I was in the US), since that is the contract with the restaurant.

On your argument I should pay the chef beforehand, or let it be known I will pay the kitchen 20% to get the best food.

Even you must admit the US system is both crazy and bad.

Edited February 13, 2008 by jackal10 (log)

[Busboy]

If the restaurant states that a service charge is added, then I will pay that.

I am happy to explain to the server that I do not tip and why. I expect I will still be served (I always have been so far, but it is a few years since I was in the US), since that is the contract with the restaurant.

On your argument I should pay the chef beforehand, or let it be known I will pay the kitchen 20% to get the best food.

Even you must admit the US system is both crazy and bad.

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You have actually told your server, before service, that you don't tip?

[jackal10]

Yes, naturally. This was, maybe 10 years ago.

They shrug, sigh, tell me how hard their life is, but I still get served.

After all that is what the restaurant pays them for, and I am a rareity. What they going to do, throw me out? Who is running the restaurant?

If service is, as you claim, seperately contracted, perhaps I should bring my own waiter, or have a beauty parade of the available options. It makes no sense

Edited February 13, 2008 by jackal10 (log)

[cathrynapple]

The minimum wage for a server in most states is well, well below the minimum wage for other kinds of work. This is because tipping is an official means of income for servers.

At $2.30 and hour, servers are working for tips. Their hourly wage is negligible. By refusing to tip, you're not in any way helping to change the system. You may be making a spiteful, self-righteous "point," but the result hurts only your server.

I think most people here would agree that a server can make or break a restaurant experience.

[Darcie B]

I never tip.

I am unlikely to return, and being European I am used to not tipping.  I do not care what the server thinks of me after they have served the meal.

I fail to see why the restaurant should advertise prices 20% below the actual price, nor collude in a tax evasion, nor make the server beg or prostitute themselves.

I am not trying to make a relationship with the servers. Their role is to take my order and bring the plates, wine etc. Their pay and quality standards are  a matter for the restaurant management, not me.

If I want to praise and reward exceptional food or service above the norm I would write to the restaurant's managment, next day or next week.

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Yes, in most of the U.S., servers are paid much less than the standard minimum wage so their "tips" really are their wages. Maybe it should be changed but until then, it is inconsiderate to ignore it. Tax evasion - are you serious?

I don't understand not respecting customs of other countries. If I have the chance to travel to another country, I will observe the customs whether I agree with them or not. To do otherwise is rude.

[jackal10]

OK.

Lets say I take 2 hours for a meal

Lets say the server is serving 20 people (10 x 2 top or more likely 5 x 4 top)

Lets say a reasonable hourly wage is $100/hour or $200 for the 2 hours

Thats $10 per person

Not sure what the average restaurant meal is including wine, but if anything like here my guess is something like $100/head for reasonable standard, and double or more in a high end place.

Thats 5% to 10%, not 20%

Your argument that 20% tip represents a fair wage is clearly false.

Edited February 13, 2008 by jackal10 (log)

[Darcie B]

OK.

Lets say I take 2 hours for a meal

Lets say the server is serving 20 people (10 x 2 top or more likely 5 x 4 top)

Lets say a reasonable hourly wage is $100/hour or $200 for the 2 hours

Thats $10 per person

Not sure what the average restaurant meal is including wine, but if anything like here my guess is something like $100/head for reasonable standard, and double or more in a high end place.

Thats 5% to 10%, not 20%

Your argument that 20% tip represents a fair wage is clearly false.

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I guess you are only eating at posh establishments. For the vast majority of servers a per person cost is more likely to be between $20 and $50 per person. And how many hours per shift do you think a server will get 10 people per hour? I'd say 2-3. No server is getting that kind of turnover for the duration of an 8-hour shift.

Most servers I know make under $30,000 per year, most well below that. They are not exactly rolling in the dough. I'm sure there are some making more, but only at a few establishments.

If being a server in the U.S. were lucrative, I would have remained a waitress well beyond college, believe me.

[cathrynapple]

Servers make very little money.

Tax evasion? Having worked as a server, I can tell you that though I took my tips home each day, they were recorded accurately by our accountant, and the withheld tax from the tips was removed from my biweekly check. Tips are taxed HEAVILY.

[hummingbirdkiss]

Good grief Jackel and they talk about "ugly Americans"!!!

well I am curious and may have missed this but if the tip is already applied to your check do you ask to have it removed?

I can not imagine telling a whole country thier system is wrong just because you dont like it! but it is a free country and if you dont care that you hurt an individuals wage or feelings then so beit ...

just remember that you are not in your country and that it is our culture..as I said before you are hurting individuals not a system with your actions..we are not going to change because you do not like it! ...and no I dont feel our system is wrong ..personally I love the fact we have the ability to make tips for hard work ...not a flawed system ..but a distorted view from a person who has a bias..flawed argument.. and resentment for something they really are not wanting to do in the first place ...

[Synergy]

I don't think arguing with jackal10 is going to make a difference.

He gets his rocks off by stiffing servers under the guise of a "statement against corruption".

If he were truly concerned about exploitation he wouldn't be exploiting the system by having servers provide him with service for the least amount of money out of his pocket possible.

Cheapness does not a political statement make.

[hummingbirdkiss]

you are right Synergy I am going to bow out of this now I keep saying the same thing over and over just using differing words

[markk]

I never tip.

I am unlikely to return, and being European I am used to not tipping.  I do not care what the server thinks of me after they have served the meal.

I fail to see why the restaurant should advertise prices 20% below the actual price, nor collude in a tax evasion, nor make the server beg or prostitute themselves.

I am not trying to make a relationship with the servers. Their role is to take my order and bring the plates, wine etc. Their pay and quality standards are  a matter for the restaurant management, not me.

If I want to praise and reward exceptional food or service above the norm I would write to the restaurant's managment, next day or next week.

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I wasn't going to get involved here, but I feel I have to.

Notwithstanding that your arguments about the "system" may be correct, I would agree wholeheartedly with those who have told you that since you know how the system works, and don't tip anyway, you're not making any kind of useful statement that works to change the system - you're giving rationalizations that make you feel better about saving yourself some money; and whether or not the system is right, if you know how it works in this country (as opposed to a foreigner who just may not know, somehow), you're committing a fraud when you dine in a restaurant here and don't tip, and you're penalizing the server needlessly.

And I'm sure that you realize all of that. So you get-off on stiffing the server, and your trips to America cost you a little less. It's not something to be proud of.

[Carlovski]

If the restaurant states that a service charge is added, then I will pay that.

I am happy to explain to the server that I do not tip and why. I expect I will still be served (I always have been so far, but it is a few years since I was in the US), since that is the contract with the restaurant.

On your argument I should pay the chef beforehand, or let it be known I will pay the kitchen 20% to get the best food.

Even you must admit the US system is both crazy and bad.

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Jack - just out of interest (And not a leading question, I'm staying well out of this debate!), what was the policy at Midsummer house, when you were involved?