Need advice on French Burgundy

[davidbdesilva]

I have really begun to discover and enjoy the world of French Burgundy but feel quite overwhelmed by the different types but especially by the prices! My education so far has been limited to reds such as Marsannay (Domaine Bertagna, Jadot), Santenay (Nicolas Potel 1er), Gevry-Chambertin (Drouhin), Nuits St. George (Roden) and whites such as Pouilly-Fuisse (Au-baine, Drouhin) and Grand Cru Chablis (Chablisienne?). I have thorougly enjoyed these wines and I want to continue to explore and discover these wines.

So, can a knowledgeable person help me with what are good, inexpensive burgundies? Or have a done fairly well so far? Tell me about Beaune, Volnay, Chamboise, Chambertin and Corton if you can (and I've probably misspelled all of these!). I realize this topic is a lifetime of study but I need a quick condensed version if possible (and maybe a few good references to read). Thank you very much to anyone who can help out this burgundy lover and relative newby!

Edited February 4, 2005 by davidbdesilva (log)

[Busboy]

The most edifying wisdom on Burgundies I ever heard was this (updated to reflect current prices): A good bottle of Burgundy costs $250. $50 for the good bottle, and $200 for the other four that sucked.

I'm no expert (can't afford it) but you appear to have done a good job nibbling around the edges at the lower-priced villages. Given the equation above, putting yourself in the hands of a good sommeliere as you push on into Chambertin and Corton, might save you some disappointment.

For what it's worth, the most consistent mid-priced purveyors I have found is Mongeard-Mugneret. Their Eschezeaux has been particularly good.

[Brad Ballinger]

When you figure out Burgundy, let the rest of us know.

Burgundy has often been praised and derided. Sometimes in the same breath, such as "the best wine I've ever had was a Burgundy; so was the worst." You can get some guidance here (such as for Volnay, I love the wines of Montille), but you'll find a wealth of resources at the Burghound Web Site.

Beaune is a village in the southern part of Burgundy's Cote d'Or (the wines with historically higher status are in the northern part of the Cote d'Or, called the Cote de Nuits). A wine labeled "Beaune" means it's a village wine.

Volnay is also a village in the Cote de Beaune (southern part of the Cote d'Or). But it has a higher "status" than Beaune.

Chambertin is a grand cru vineyard associated with the village of Gevrey-Chambertin in the Cote de Nuits. It's been called a quintessential coq au vin wine.

Corton is a grand cru associated with the village of Aloxe-Corton in the Cote de Beaune that produces both red and white wines (although only about 2% are white).

I have no idea what Chamboise is meant to be (it's not a part of Burgundy, and I don't know what you meant instead).

[2roost]

Try to stay with some good general coverage houses to begin, Jadot, Bouchard Pere, Faively and Jayer are among my faves plus Brocard and Fevre for Chablis.

Go to as many tastings as you can, talk to your retailer as much as you can. Try to enlist 9 friends in a tasting circle, meet once a month tossing in $20 each to taste example of specific AC's or vintages thus lowering the chances of spending $50 on something you hate. Vintages are often more important in Burgundy than in other areas so keep that in mind (99's are superb right now in Red, 2000 in white and '02 is great for both).

As to books try Anthony Hanson's Burgundy (out of print so try second hand stores), Matt Kramer's Making Sense of Burgundy or Cotes D'or by Clive Coates.

Before going forward please realize that once begun in earnest the journey through Burgundy is a long, painful and expensive one - but I have enjoyed it for over 25 years.

Good Luck

[wkl]

Perhaps you meant Chambolle?

[Florida Jim]

David,

First, I suggest you read "Cote d'Or" by Clive Coates. It will give you a good bit of background (albeit somewhat dated) and will orient you to the appellations and the overall atmosphere of the region. It is a long read but a rewarding one.

Second, taste. Go to every tasting you can.

Third, if you buy, buy very little - no more than 1-3 bottles of anything. Enough so that you can try it several times with several different meals over time. But not enough so that you have too much of it if you find its not your thing.

IMO, Burgundy is one of thiose regions where producer is more important than the appellation or the vintage. Jadot and Drouhin make wine from a great number of appellations so they are a good starting point. Also, they usually cost a bit less than others. My favorite "can't miss" producer in all of the Burgundy is Robert Chevillon; he makes wines in Nuits-St.-George.

Knowing Burgundy takes a lifetime; knowing it well, takes two. So don't get frustrated - you are not alone.

Best, Jim

[davidbdesilva]

Thanks to you all for your input and wine wisdom. As I thought, this region appears to be more fickle, expensive, but potentially rewarding than any other in the world. The beginner wines I have had so far have been a revelation to me so I cannot fathom what the grand cru's are like (someday, someday). Thanks for the references and the great idea about tastings. My forte is more in Italian wines and experiencing the French more and more creates a very interesting comparison. With a limited budget, I always strive to find the best and most interesting representative wines of regions at the best price, but then again, don't we all? Thanks again and yes, I did mean Chambolle

[robinlhunter]

I agree with you that this is a formidable topic and I'm reluctant to tackle it in an email, but here's an attempt -- Red and white burgundies are my favorite category of wine, and yes, like the other posts, I've had the same experience of greatness coupled with devastating disapppointment -- not necessarily with a strong price correlation.

Reference books (and detailed maps, especially) help, but tasting is better, and visiting is by far the best way to get to know these wines, in my opinion. I went on a 7-day biking tour based around Beaune that was incredibly fun and informative (and not that physically-demanding, either).

There are many tour operators for the region -- I went with www.duvine.com and can vouch for its very high quality in all respects (the founder started out with one of the top high-end cycling tour operators). We even spent a morning cycling with a sommelier from a Michelin-starred restaurant. It was an unforgettable experience. The food was also really great, and we stayed in places with a lot of character, like a 16th-century hunting lodge outside Savigny-les-Beaune.

Here are a few personal recommendations of wine, mostly in the $30-$75 range. You may also want to look up the vintage ratings as well -- it does really make a difference in taste and price:

White: Montagny (my favorite value-based choice), Auxey-Duresse, Corton-Charlemagne, and Mersault Gottes d'Or (Bouchard is a pretty good, consistent producer) -- try one of these with more age than you'd expect was advisable for a white and you might be pleasantly surprised...

Red: Givry-Chambertin, Chambolle Musigny (Andre Ziltener is a reliably good producer of both of these), and Bonnes Mare.

Other notable Burgundy winemakers (anything they produce seems to be pretty good to excellent): Alex Gambal (small) and Joseph Drouhin (larger).

Enjoy.

[Brad Ballinger]

My favorite "can't miss" producer in all of the Burgundy is Robert Chevillon; he makes wines in Nuits-St.-George.

←

Truer words were never written.

[DTBarton]

I will also preface by saying I'm no expert. Burgundy is a tricky mistress. I was once in a tony wine store in North Atlanta that had a huge selection of Burgundy That my brother and I were poking around in. The guy working there, older, looked like he'd sampled a few in his day, came over and muttered "Burgundy, the last refuge".

As mentioned above, one of the tough things about Burgundy is it can't be solved reliably by throwing money at it. red burgundy can be very unpredictable in the bottle as far as aging. I've kept a few and had them change pretty dramatically over the course of a few years, both getting better and worse.

A couple of producers that I like for reasonably priced Burgundy (an oxymoron, I know):

Red: Vincent Girardin. Most of his are in a light, fruity style, I've had many that had some of the best nose I've ever smelt (?), tons of raspberries and strawberries and such.

White: J. M. Boillot. Nice, consistent chardonnay with minimal oak and mineral elements. Not as rich as the big boys, but mostly in the $20 - $30 range.

[jgould]

terrific topic!

love the above quotes: "A good bottle of Burgundy costs $250. $50 for the good bottle, and $200 for the other four that sucked"; & "When you figure out Burgundy, let the rest of us know".

almost seems "as if" one needs to start with a very expensive & well-regarded red burgundy from the côte de nuits, a la, vosne-romanee, to begin to understand why pinot noirs from this area, cause joys of rapture. then, at least, one will have established a "benchmark".

to begin with the low-end first, does not provide that same benchmark, & therefore, one does not really know what is in store re:appreciation, at the beginning of their quest.

just 1 opinion/way of approaching a subject; but "unfortunately" worked for me & is the basis of my attraction to this very difficult grape.

Edited February 5, 2005 by jgould (log)

[winebabe]

One of the most important things I am learning about Burgundy is "who is making the wine".

Clive Coates and Burghound are great resources, and as someone said earlier, Coates is a bit dated but it gives a great overview of the region. Burghound is getting some good accolades and of the other major wine writers, Stephen Tanzer seems to be the most knowledgeable. Parker is no longer welcome in Burgundy.

The tasting group idea with everyone pitching in $20 bucks is a great one. I will propose it to my group so we can start tasting some of the more expensive bottles that we all talk about.

I recently tasted a 2002 Santenay 1er cru "Les Gravieres" by A. Marie et J. Marc Vincent and I found info about this producer on a British site:

"A domaine which has “arrived”. Wines of great distinction and finesse made by the radical and immensely talented Jean-Marc Vincent. This is fast becoming one of the really great domaines and still great value for the terrific quality. The young, dynamic Jean-Marc took over this family domaine of 4.5 hectares from his grandfather in 1997. We were told by a good friend in London to check out the progress at this estate and were also told that Kermit Lynch, the famous American importer, had recently started importing these wines to the USA! Jean-Marc is now fully “bio-dynamic” and has some innovative ideas about how he wants to make his wines. Having said that, the work in the vineyards is very natural and great pains are taken to ensure that he has the highest quality of fruit. There are a high proportion of old vines and the yields are kept under control. Selection is paramount and only the highest quality fruit is used for these wines. He uses a very high proportion of new oak. He also uses a high proportion of stems in the fermentations, which can last over a month. For Jean-Marc, having long, slow fermentations results in wines with better tannins and suppleness but without sacrificing structure. When tasting these wines it is hard to believe that some of these wines have up to 100% stems and 100% new oak, as the fruit is very silky and fine and the oak is discrete and superbly integrated. A domaine to follow. "

This is just an example of the kind of producer I look for so it does take a bit of research. The wine is available in the US through Kermit Lynch. It shouldn't be more than $25-$30 a bottle.

[winebabe]

While looking for info on the Santenay, I found this link:

http://www.burgundy-talent.com/

[jgould]

While looking for info on the Santenay, I found this link:

http://www.burgundy-talent.com/

←

"HOLY S__T, BATMAN" WHAT A FANTASTIC WEBSITE!!! merci beaucoup!!

are u aware of similar sites like this re: bordeaux, alsace, rhône, loire?

[jgould]

While looking for info on the Santenay, I found this link:

http://www.burgundy-talent.com/

←

"HOLY S__T, BATMAN" WHAT A FANTASTIC WEBSITE!!! merci beaucoup!!

are u aware of similar sites like this re: bordeaux, alsace, rhône, loire?

←

DARN!!!! i really hate to see this excellent string slide back into egullet oblivion sometimes a string can become so interesting, it promotes a lot of good discussion & information exchanges.

so much more to bring into this discussion. for ex. florida jim stated above the vigernons de bourgogne are more important than either the vintage or the appellation; would be interesting to explore this in further detail, n'est-ce pas???????

Edited February 12, 2005 by jgould (log)

[jgould]

While looking for info on the Santenay, I found this link:

http://www.burgundy-talent.com/

←

"HOLY S__T, BATMAN" WHAT A FANTASTIC WEBSITE!!! merci beaucoup!!

are u aware of similar sites like this re: bordeaux, alsace, rhône, loire?

←

DARN!!!! i really hate to see this excellent string slide back into egullet oblivion sometimes a string can become so interesting, it promotes a lot of good discussion & information exchanges.

so much more to bring into this discussion. for ex. florida jim stated above the vigernons de bourgogne are more important than either the vintage or the appellation; would be interesting to explore this in further detail, n'est-ce pas???????

←

i cannot believe there are so few that are participating

[jgould]

While looking for info on the Santenay, I found this link:

http://www.burgundy-talent.com/

←

"HOLY S__T, BATMAN" WHAT A FANTASTIC WEBSITE!!! merci beaucoup!!

are u aware of similar sites like this re: bordeaux, alsace, rhône, loire?

←

DARN!!!! i really hate to see this excellent string slide back into egullet oblivion sometimes a string can become so interesting, it promotes a lot of good discussion & information exchanges.

so much more to bring into this discussion. for ex. florida jim stated above the vigernons de bourgogne are more important than either the vintage or the appellation; would be interesting to explore this in further detail, n'est-ce pas???????

←

i cannot believe there are so few that are participating

←

ok, to continue the string: anyone care to compare a Chambolle-Musigny vs. a Volnay &/or a Pommard?

[TarteTatin]

I'm sorry not to continue the string to compare the two wines...

What I can say, is what helps me with these wines are to actually see the terroir.

Having been to Burgundy twice, it helps to really see the vineyards, the towns, to wander the streets of the city of Beaune, to drive through Mersault, Pommard, etc.

Having a bottle of Savigny Les Beaune in that town square, or Vosnee Romanee, that's what makes the wines of Burgundy even better for me, and helps me appreciate it more. Looking at the land itself and breathing the air!

[jgould]

I'm sorry not to continue the string to compare the two wines...

What I can say, is what helps me with these wines are to actually see the terroir.

Having been to Burgundy twice, it helps to really see the vineyards, the towns, to wander the streets of the city of Beaune, to drive through Mersault, Pommard, etc.

Having a bottle of Savigny Les Beaune in that town square, or Vosnee Romanee, that's what makes the wines of Burgundy even better for me, and helps me appreciate it more. Looking at the land itself and breathing the air!

←

thx 4 continuing the string

[winebabe]

O.K. - I'll bite and and my .02:

The comparison between Chambolle-Musigny and Volnay can be a good one.

There a few obvious differences: CM is in the Cotes de Nuit and Volnay is in the Cotes de Beaune and Volnay does not have any Grand Cru vineyards whereas, CM has two: Le Musigny and Les Bonnes-Mares. Le Musigny also has another notable exception: De Vogue has planted a small parcel of Chardonnay and consequently is the only Grand Cru with the exception of Corton that can be both white and red.

With that being said, there are striking similarities between the two:

Chambolle Musigny wines can be lighter in structure than other Cotes de Nuits Communes and as such has been called more feminine than its CdN counterparts in Vosne and Gevrey.

Volnay produces some of the most delicate and elegant wines in the Cotes de Beaune and have been called "the most fragrand and seductively feminine expression of Pinot Noir in the CdB" and are "directly analagous with the wines of Chambolle Musigny" according to Clive Coates.

Both of these communes have a higher density of limestone in their soils and thus share similar characteristics of terroir.

Hope this was a good start to the discussion. We should keep the thread alive because it makes an excellent learning tool for all of us.

[jgould]

O.K. - I'll bite and and my .02:

The comparison between Chambolle-Musigny and Volnay can be a good one.

There a few obvious differences: CM is in the Cotes de Nuit and Volnay is in the Cotes de Beaune and Volnay does not have any Grand Cru vineyards whereas, CM has two: Le Musigny and Les Bonnes-Mares. Le Musigny also has another notable exception: De Vogue has planted a small parcel of Chardonnay and consequently is the only Grand Cru with the exception of Corton that can be both white and red.

With that being said, there are striking similarities between the two:

Chambolle Musigny wines can be lighter in structure than other Cotes de Nuits Communes and as such has been called more feminine than its CdN counterparts in Vosne and Gevrey.

Volnay produces some of the most delicate and elegant wines in the Cotes de Beaune and have been called "the most fragrand and seductively feminine expression of Pinot Noir in the CdB" and are "directly analagous with the wines of Chambolle Musigny" according to Clive Coates.

Both of these communes have a higher density of limestone in their soils and thus share similar characteristics of terroir.

Hope this was a good start to the discussion. We should keep the thread alive because it makes an excellent learning tool for all of us.

←

winebabe - u are beautiful

[MaxH]

What superb spirit in this thread! Excellent comments -- Brad B's best of wines / worst of wines, and the others. I'd like especially to endorse this one, from an obviously wise and experienced source:

Go to as many tastings as you can, talk to your retailer as much as you can.  Try to enlist 9 friends in a tasting circle, meet once a month tossing in $20 each to taste example of specific AC's or vintages thus lowering the chances of spending $50 on something you hate.  ...

A liberating, empowering course of action. (After random friendly and commercial tastings, I got into a regular group in 1982 and it has been practical, enlightening and fun. Today I'm also in three others-- two fully and one partly for Burgundies. Probably too many, but they have their ways of becoming difficult when I move to pull out -- like some cults -- beware! ). Anyway, these are an excellent way of surveying new arrivals on the market, and deciding what to buy, even if you have lots of experience with the wines.

As to books try Anthony Hanson's Burgundy (out of print so try second hand stores), Matt Kramer's Making Sense of Burgundy or Cotes D'or by Clive Coates.

If you want to have some fun, dig up a used copy (it's widely available, Amazon has editions for $1.90) of Yoxall's little paperback Wines of Burgundy (Two main editions were 1968 and 1978.) It's an old standard introductory book. Producer and style comments are obsolete, but the background info ("Some optional history / Some compulsory geography") is very concise, and also, Yoxall's wry wit is readable in its own right. (It was a thin introductory book, did for Burgundy what Ozias's All About Wine did for wines in general around the same time, in the US.

[Brad Ballinger]

Purely in the interest of keeping the thread alive, permit me to share my recent Burgundy purchases (just made these over the weekend, all reds)

Cote de Nuits

2002 Rene Leclerc Gevrey-Chambertin "Les Combe aux Moines" Premier Cru. I was tempted by the Griotte Chambertin Grand Cru, but my wallet said no.

2002 Mugneret-Gibourg Vosne Romanee. A village wine that has the most prestigious vineyards associated with it (my wallet says no to those, too). And it's from Mugneret.

Cote de Beaune

2002 Tollot-Beaut Chorey-Cote de Beaune. From the village (and AOC) of Chorey-Les-Beaune. One of the great values out there, and probably the first from the 2002 vintage in my cellar I'll be able to drink.

2002 Bouchard Volany Caillerets Ancienne Cuvee Carnot, a premier cru wine from the village of Volany, which has had plenty of discussion so far.

2002 Bouchard Beaune du Chateau. This is a premier cru wine from Beaune. The fruit, however, doesn't come from any one vineyard but from several. Hence the "propiertary" name of the wine -- Beaune du Chateau.

FWIW.

[MaxH]

FYI a number of people have asked me about the 2002 vintage and I thought I'd repeat here what I know. (I was tasting them in bottle, there, in September and have worked through some few dozen more 02's since then via the co-operative tasting groups I mentioned above.)

2002 suffered a market quirk in being hyped by the press "from the moment the grapes were picked" as a long-time Burgundy expert put it to me. That factor drew unusual early interest which, with the big drop in dollar value for products sold initially in Euros, caused high early prices in the US. Some of them are coming back onto market now at more moderate prices. Of the cross-section of 2002 reds I've sampled (more C. de Nuits than C. de Beaune) there is a tendency to immediate charm that I did not see in 01 or 00. A notion is current among some wine enthusiasts that early charm implies a poor future. I don't expect that all of these people have very many years of early-tasting experience on which to base such a comment because if they did, they'd recall how the 1999, 1996, and 1985 vintages, which all stood out from the adjacent vintages for both solid structure (fruit-acid-tannin-mineral) and also early charm, have proven out as exceptional vintages of the last two decades.

-- Max

[jgould]

robt parker on charlie rose the other nite commented on excellent bordeaux & burgundys & emphasized how long they should be aged before even considering drinking. i thought quite interesting vs. going to restaurants with excellent wine lists, but most within the last few yrs & sort of heresy to drink "before their time"????

also, as my earlier comparison: chambolle-musigny vs volnay & thx to winebabe; looking to compare & contrast: gevrey-chambertin vs aloxe-corton.

both encourage comments & other comparisons to aid in educating ourselves with the pinot noir grape in the vineyards of burgundy.

p.s. & not meant to take away from this french burgundy string, but only as a point of information: today's nyt dining section's wine column re: pinot noirs in USA.

other points to raise going forward, possibly what foods match well with red burgundys?