All dressed up and no place to go?

[ajay]

Thanks for the clarification Wilfrid!

I still feel that members who are concerend with the attire of others in a restaurant (within a broad spectrum of appropriateness/reasonability) are being obssessive and a bit crochety!

Perhaps my views are due to my (relatively) young age.  I'm firmly of the opinion that one should be free to dress in as disheveled a fashion as one prefers. Now, I freely admit that others, including restaurants, draw inferences from a sloppy appearance.  But the balancing between the consequences of sloppiness, and the comfort/desirability of so dressing should be left to the individual.

[Wilfrid]

I am sure the age factor is at work here, rendering our views largely irrational.  Nevertheless, more clarification:  I certainly do not judge people by what they wear, nor do I think it should influence the way they are treated - although as a factual observation, it very often does.

And I am not at all obsessed with the issue.

For me, it's about the aesthetics of the overall dining experience.  Take Alain Ducasse NY as an example.  A very thoughtfully decorated, rich and stately dining room, with some interesting art works on the walls and even the tables.  Diners (if they got in) who wore ripped t-shirts, shorts and open-toed sandals would detract from the appearance and hence the atmosphere.  I think it is reasonable to expect people to dress in such a way that everyone's experience is enhanced.  (Extreme example, I know, but I guess it makes my point).  As I say, that's my preference.  I'm not insisting on it, and a fat lot of good it would do if I did!   :confused:

[ajay]

Fair 'nough, Wilfrid.  I too pay minimal attention to the issue.  I don't think anyone who makes the effort and has the means to go to Ducasse would attempt to go in ripped jeans and open toed sandals, and it would fall outside my stipulation that dress should be irrelevant within a 'broad standard of appropriateness and resaonability.'  

Moreover, for the record, I would note that the wearing of jackets is by no means the norm in Michelin 3 stars.  THis is especially true of the countryside.  However, even in Paris, there were invariably some gentlemen not wearing jackets, and I didn't notice any hostility toward them on the part of the House.  That said, I also note that almost everyone every native I encountered in France was smartly dressed--jacket or no.

As to being judged by one's clothing/appearance, I believe that it is a regrettable, if unconcscious, fact of life, but this is an issue that could easily spawn a swarm of digressions and rebuttals.

[La Niña]

Barring an interview of every stranger we encounter, on what basis do we then "judge" people?  The way we dress, and present ourselves externally in general, is a statement of some kind, a representation of ourselves that we choose to show to the public.

[Deacon]

I bet if Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise showed up at ADNY the staff would let him in with smiles on their faces even if he were wearing a loincloth.

I have the kind of fanatic egalitarianism about restaurant attire that comes from a lifetime of eating in restaurants with my superannuated parents, who were old even when they were young. They customarily make comments like "Look at that guy over there in the Bermuda shorts" or "Doesn't he look cute with his hat on backwards?" A lifetime of that will have you cheering for the guy in the tank top as he eats his meal.

Usually I'm concentrating so diligently on the food and on what the other people at the table are saying that I never even NOTICE the people at other tables. Having said that, I do tend to automatically dress reasonably nicely: nice slacks and jacket, usually, at most places, but not a tie. My pet peeve is the guy who parks diagonally across two handicapped spaces in his Cadillac. Which I ALSO got from dining with my father, who uses his fraudulent handicapped rear-view-mirror-hanger as if it makes his car invisible.

[La Niña]

A contradiction: given your stated feelings, why then do you "automatically" dress nicely?

[Deacon]

Good question. People I respect dress at about the same level I do, for the places we go. I'm not going wear ripped clothes to a restaurant as some kind of psychic vengeance against my absent parents. OTOH, I dislike ties. And I've never been turned away (yet!) because of the way I've been dressed, even from places that expect a tie.

[tommy]

I bet if Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise showed up at ADNY the staff would let him in with smiles on their faces even if he were wearing a loincloth.

good point, and one that i was going to bring up.  someone above mentioned "unshaven", presumably to paint the picture of someone who was clearly not "dressed the part".  since when does a beard, mustache, or five o'clock shadow make a man look unkempt across the board?  don johnson put an end to this mindset (if it ever existed) back in 1982 or so.

i'm guessing that this is a generational issue for the most part.  younger people don't buy into dressing up.  hell, even most businesses don't require jackets in NYC.  and trust me, i ain't going home after work to change into a suit to go out to eat.

i'm suprised no one has mentioned broadway plays.  oh how my 80 year old mother in law pines for the days when people would "dress snazzy and go out on the town".  yawn.

[La Niña]

Broadway plays...and how about the opera?  Or Carnegie Hall, etc?  Is it not a sign of respect, or a mark of the "occasion-ness" of it to dress differently than you might, say, to hang out at a bar?  Is there/should there be a distinction between these things, as manifested in the way we dress?  I think so, hope so.  The opera feels different to me than a bar, and I want to demonstrate that outwardly.  It's also an indication of the specialness, the out-of-the-ordinariness of the event.  If not in the way we dress, than how to make the distinctions?

[tommy]

my point was, people don't dress up to go to plays anymore.  the opera is not far behind.  "right" or "wrong", times change.  they have, and they will continue to.

[La Niña]

*Some* people don't dress up anymore to go to the opera, theatre, etc.  And I know that number is increasing. And I, for one, find it truly lamentable.

[Bux]

Interesting thread. Wilfrid, you touch some nerves here. I resolutely gave up wearing ties many years ago. Note that in my early college years, I often wore a tie and jacket to class and when I stopped wearing ties, some three piece suits hung in my closet until they no longer fit me. For much of my adult life I didn't eat in fine restaurants if only because they required a tie. I started wearing a tie more often again only when I developed an interest in dining in fine restaurants. Partially it was a matter of respect for the owner and staff and consideration of other diners, but it was also in the cold realization that it would affect my service. Eventually however, I developed an interest in the whole fine restaurant experience, just as Wilfrid did and that included my tie as well as my wife's dress and the service and decor of the restaurant.

I am rarely offended or jealous when others arrive dressed in an extremely casual manner, however. That they look as if they don't belong doesn't matter to me. At any rate, this is the trend here in NY and moreso in France. At three forks and spoons, it seems a jacket is optional in Paris. Even at Ducasse I am told, "you'd be surprised at how people dress." At Bras, Close des Cimes and Les Loges (Lyon) jacket and tie were in the minority.

Another thing I share with Wilfrid is the acceptance of nearly naked women in a fine restaurant and just about any other place.

While I'm perfectly happy to wear a jacket and tie, I have no problem removing my jacket if the room is too hot.

[Basildog]

How important is the dress of the serving staff to you people? i ask , because my wife has stopped work at our place ( 4 weeks to go till the birth) and i have taken on her duties out front.I wear chefs whites because i,m still cooking , but after reading this thread, shoud i be worried?

[stellabella]

i'm one of those who prefers not to "dress up" for dinner.  "dressing up" is for the office, funerals, weddings, and other occasions that you'd just as soon avoid.  dinner should be relaxing.  i avoid those places where most are dressed up, so those that might be offended by my khakis and polo shirt don't have to see me!  

i'm with you, tommy.  i love clothes as much as anyone i know, which is a bit ironic since i hate getting dressed up--i am a teacher and get up each morning and carefully choose something fabulous--by the time i get home end of the day i feel like i've been run through a steam press--time for the jeans and Ts , or Old Navy JUST BOTTOMS.  so more often than not i'm gonna choose a casual restaurant.

on the other hand, i think the idea of getting smashingly dressed for a really special meal is nice--it would be something i'd do very rarely, though.  which is kinda the point, right, that there should be really special restaurants for really special meals and really special occasions [tho it's fine if  people like to have a really special meal once a week!!! or every night!!!!].

nina, i'm not going to visit that other site, but i take liza's word for it and i agree, how dare they be mean to you.  seems like anyone who dares suggest that looking nice and neat and appropriate is some horrible unPC elitist--when in fact all over the world even people very poor by our western standards are very clean and neat and dress far more formally than we do.  REVERSE LOOK-ISM!

[cabrales]

I wear chefs whites because i,m still cooking , but after reading this thread, shoud i be worried?

Basildog -- Not appreciating your particular circumstances, I would think that your appearing in chefs' whites while performing front office duties would be fine. Here are some considerations (as you know, not based on any experience in the restaurant industry, so to be taken with a grain of salt):

(1) If you are out in the dining room area too much during the service, some clients may wonder who is preparing their meal. This issue is more of a concern for instantly-recognisable chefs like Guy Savoy in Paris. If you were similarly known by your community in Padstow that makes up your clients, they may wonder who is preparing their dishes.

(2) I assume that your whites are not all stained up and very dirty-looking. If they are that way, consider using a cleaner apron to cover up some of the dirtied areas near the front of your whites. Also, now that you are appearing up front more, it might be good to ensure (as you have been, I am sure) that your hair, nails, etc. look appropriately clean.

(3) I assume that, when you are visible in the dining room area, you appear relatively calm and in control of the situation. You might want to reconsider if, for example, you are walking around so briskly that clients may perceive you are somehow frantic about something.

(4) Then, there is the question of selectively greeting diners as you walk into the dining room. If you greet some (e.g., the ones who are repeat clients) and not others, you should consider how other clients might take it (I am not suggesting a different course of action on your part, just to be cognizant of "perceptions" of disparate treatment by diners.)

Sorry if the above seems obvious, and represent what you are already mindful of.  

What would you recommend I preorder if I were to come by in early May? Are there dishes that you consider particularly delicious?  

On dressing in general, it is reality that at least restaurants in Paris do take note of how diners dress. Regardless of whether it is appropriate for restaurants to do so, one does get treated better by dressing stylishly and dressing as though one intended to go to a restaurant. For example, I always use small clutch handbags. I notice some women utilizing large tote bags that they might bring to work or use to carry things around in in general. While they are, of course, free to continue to do that, particularly in the evening one could consider a smaller shoulder bag or a clutch handbag. I dress up. I am not saying this is right, just that at times it can respond to practical considerations.

Plus, significantly, I can get ready very quickly. (I might balance things out differently if it took me a long time to get ready in this way.)  

[Basildog]

Cabrales..its interesting times at my place.My new 2nd Chef (David) has just finished his first week, so i'm in a contemplative mood. We both do the prep for the day, and David does service. Tonight, for example , we had a waitress, so i was washerup , and starter's , veg , and desserts.Its very much a team effort between me and David.Saturday night, i ran the front ( in sparkling clean whites!) and David had help in the kitchen.

I think this will work, mostly because we are so small, and i can keep my eye on everything. After 3 years of doing every main course, most of the starters, and 70% of the rest of the prep, its a bit strange, too say the least!

BTW David did the '98 season with me , before we purchased the bistro, so its not like a 'new' chef

I just feel that i have to delgate some of the cooking, share the workload with a proper chef , as opposed to the helpers i have had in the past.This does free me up to see to other matters, like looking after the customers.

to reply to your points...

1) People can see whos cooking, and i make a point of telling people thats it David at the stoves. Our regulars like to know the ins and outs of everything, and were not shy in telling them anything and everything they wish to know( and sometimes , more than they need !)

2) Of course, clean jacket and apron for service. Nails , not pretty, but clean. Hair covered by baseball hat ( i'm not a fan of big chefs hats, plus i'm 6 ft and we got a low canopy)

3) Hmmmm, am i calm? I rush about alot, but not frantic. If i,m tied up by a table, then David or assitant will bring food to the table. I compare it to juggling..we all cover each other , so no one drops a ball !

4) Everyone is greeted by me when i,m working out front. If in the kitchen, then i will see everyone by the end of the night. I don't cruise the tables, but i just say hello!we treat everyone the same (honest)

[Jinmyo]

Basildog, just a wee word. You love this place and what you've done. Please don't get too far away from the mains. Starters and veg just don't satisfy a cook. It curdles the attention after not too long. One loses the sense of it. It all becomes frittery, if you know what I mean. No depth. Glad Davy's good but please don't let yourself become less good than you are. That's it, I'm done.