France and Asia

[bleudauvergne]

I spent several years in Beijing, where I learned to cook many of the staples from my housekeeper. My Asian cultural and culinary education leans very northern Chinese. I've tasted the food in port and smelter towns in the entire eastern region from Mongolia all the way down to and including HK, and in the mining towns of the upper western region of China. The cuisine up north is wheat based and they experience the four seasons.

I come to France, and everything is nems this and nems that. My husband, who had a vietnamese nanny, explains that this is a take on Vietnamese. The line with Vietnam is clear. What are the other subtle Asian influences I'm not picking up on? We established with the Fernand Point Question a reference to Japan and Bocuse. I see lots of southeast Asian influence in the fruits in Ducasse's Spoon cookbook recipes, but I'm not familliar enough with the cuisine in that region to really trace the source of this inspiration. Can anyone give me some insight on the geographical influences, not just of the cuisine of Ducasse, but in general, your ideas :

What Asian geographical points of influence have made their way into French contemporary cuisine?

Thanks.

[chefzadi]

Short answer the rest of Indochine. I'll be back with a longer later.

[FaustianBargain]

It is interesting about French-Vietnamese connection. Modern Vietnamese cuisine has a very strong French influence. Prior to the French connection, Vietnamese cuisine itself sprung from the Chinese culinary womb.

Japanese influence - Yes, but I dont see sushi(sashimi..maybe) taking off in France like it did in the States.

I definitely see an appreciation of Thai cuisine..not just in France but the world over. It has all sorts of influences and unlike Chinese or Japanese or even Korean food, it also incorporates a lot from Indian cuisine(southern indian flavours..isolated, but sharp and distinct flavours...black pepper, tamarind..all sorts of citrusy flavours....very unlike northern indian flavours which is more of a medley of spices). It is not too Indian..it is not too 'asian'(chinese/japanese). It is has a bit of everything from everywhere. It is foreign enough for intrigue, but not too alien to the tastebuds. It is fresh and waiting to be embraced. It will all be fine until, god forbid, someone decides to 'fuse' them.

Interestingly, imo, Asian influences in French cuisine will flourish in the southern regions of France. This is only my budding theory, of course. So feel free to dismantle it. The weather opens itself to 'asian flavours'. Winters tend to affiliate one's tastebuds to fat, dairy and all things porcine. Comments?

[chefzadi]

Lucy-

On a personal note it's interesting to me that you mention Northern China and Mongolia. My wife is Korean. You may or may not know this but the Koreans think of themselves as having the same bloodline as the Mongolians and Manchurians.

Also, the Japanese influence is really more abstract and theoretical then it is in terms of flavor contributions. When you see tuna tartare on a French menu in France the chef is more likely to claim a French Polynesian inspiration. Which makes sense given the level of actual cultural interaction.

As for the South of France it does make more sense that South East Asian flavors meld better with the type of ingredients and cooking styles that highlight the region.

The Indian influence would be quite indirect if at all. The French palate is more accustomed to the North African use of similar spices. Specifically Algerian which tends to be ligther than Moroccan and not as spicy as Tunisian.

I've noticed in several recently published French cookbooks the addition of preserved lemons as a "French" pantry item without any mention of its North African roots. Typical French, I'd say. Meaning, if it's in France we just think of as French.

Edited January 28, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[chefzadi]

To further explore the question-

I don't have access to Ducasse's spoon cookbook. But the use of Southeast Asian fruits in French style desserts has been around long enough now that it's isn't considered new.

He could have read about, seen or tasted desserts using for instance mango fruit anywhere. He could have found Southeast Asian fruits at a grocery store in France. And thought "hey this could make a good sorbet flavor." As for subtler Asian influences that one might miss, well that indicate to me that they are just not there in the first place. Asian cuisines are so different from French cuisine that the influences would be rather obvious.

I've seen some well known French chefs in France using things like lemongrass or what not, but then the source of the ingredient is obvious. Make no mistake about the ingredient will be used within the context of French technique and French food. Much has been made about the Japanese influence on Bocuse (mostly from the Japanese side). But the movement towards lighter dishes and simpler presentation had already begun before Bocuse and it would have continued without him. No single chef changes the culinary tide of a entire culture. Yes Escoffier comes to mind, but his significance lies more in sytemizing, codifying, structuring and documenting mostly what already existed.

I can't imagine that Asian food will take off in France in the same way it's popular in America or Australia. At least not in my lifetime. The French chef is trained to create dishes that will be accompanied by wine. There isn't a single French technique that my wife that my wife can identify as being remotely Japanese or Asian. The French palate has been imprinted with dishes that were created with wine in mind. That means dishes that are not too sweet, sour, aciditic, pungent or spicey. These flavors are found in abundance in Asian cuisines.

The gleaming light of French-Asian fusion from my point of view comes from Asian chefs and I think this will only continue to grow as Le Cordon Bleu schools make there way into more and more Asian countries (one campus in Korea and I think two in Japan already).

[Pan]

Back in 1992, I had the pleasure of eating several times in a mid-priced restaurant in Nice serving cuisine from La Reunion. That was fabulous food, and I wish that style would spread (rather than the restaurant closing, which unfortunately happened during the succeeding year). The food was such a mixture of subtlety and powerful flavors, like a very spicy fish curry with red grapefruit and green and pink peppercorns. And the reason it's a propos here is that it felt like a sort of cross between Indian food, French food, and something else (probably African influence, as La Reunion is way closer to Madagascar and the African mainland than it is to India).

I also frequented a Vietnamese restaurant in Nice which seemed to have decent patronage and of course had the obligatory wine list, but there's no question that the reach of Vietnamese food in France is nowhere near the reach of Chinese food in the U.S. Also, I think it's more common for Asian restaurants in France to claim to be serving two or more different cuisines (e.g. Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese) than in the U.S.

[chefzadi]

My wife for obvious reasons is on the look out for Asian restaurants and grocery stores whenever she's in France. Her travels there cover Paris to Lyon. She's been there a dozen or so times. Alot of the Chinese places she noticed in Paris were traiteurs, selling prepared foods. And yes, there were some restaurants serving more than one type of Asian cuisine as well. My wife has confirmed with some of her Chinese friends in the States who have been France that they don't know what to make of what they saw there. My wife also saw one Vietnamese-French fusion eatery in a mall in Paris. It was a sort of fast food place that served Vietnamese sandwiches and Roast chicken with lemongrass. The food didn't look really Vietnamese, but it didn't look French either. It was pretty busy, mostly filled with a broad French customer base. The owner was Asian, not sure if he was Vietnamese though.

Also, in the 11th arrondissement (if I recall correctly) in Paris there is a little area that has many (compared to the rest of Paris) "ethnic" restaurants that are trying to target a broader clientele. This is where we found the Korean restaurant. The neighborhood is what could be called trendy. It felt like most of the mix-raced couples in Paris hang out there.

Some more thoughts on fusion. Greek-American, Polish-American, Mexican-American, etc. These hypenated titles were invented in America. In France I am not Algerian-French, I am simply French. Vietnamese-French is simply French. It's considered impolite to ask someone their ethnic heritage. "forget about it" if you know what I mean. In America perhaps, the linguistic practice of hyphenated cultural identities led to cuisine with hyphenated cultural references. So maybe this is America's great culinary achievement. Americas gift to chefs allover the world who are more and more encouraged to "sign" their dishes with a bit of personal culinary heritage and experiences.

Of course if one's culinary heritage is shallow, travels have been limited, mastery of technique is absent... I'm sure we've seen a few of these creations.

[chefzadi]

My wife and I created (not that we "own" it someone else has probably done the same thing elsewhere.) We take make springrolls with with a scallop/shrimp stuffing and serve it with a spicy aioli. We've served this appetizers to our Asian, American and French friends on many occassions. Always a crowd pleaser in any cultural context.

When we make it for our French friends we tone down the use of hot sauce considerably. We make the spicy aioli with just a touch of sriracha and a sweet red pepper.

When we make it for our Asian or American friends we add Chinese red pepper sauce to the filling. The spicy aioli includes considerably more sriracha and a drop or two of red pepper infused chili oil.

I saw lobster spring rolls on a menu in France. The sauce had a range of spices and herbs in it. But it was cream based. No doubt the cream was used to mellow and soften the bite of spices and herbs so that the dish could be enjoyed with wine. I don't see this dish as an Asian cultural influence on French cuisine. It is more of a culinary influence on this particular French chef.

Similar fusion dishes in America or Asia would most likely be served with an aciditic sauce or sweet sauce, perhaps soy or vinegar based. Coconut milk might be used as well, but probably with a heavier hand with spices and maybe pungent fish sauce.

Even though France was a colonial force and has been in direct, intimate contact with other cultures much longer than Americans the message has always been and still is to the post-colonials in France, when in France you are French keep your culture at home behind closed doors. I don't have first hand experience like this America, but my wife says this was pretty much the attitude in America when her family first immigrated to the states. Now it's not, at least in the urban areas.

France is not immune to Global changes in attitudes towards the "other" and acculturalization. Ten years ago I wouldn't have even considered the possibility of opening my "dream" restaurant in France. Which would serve modern bistro dishes with special menus that include Algerian and Algerian-French dishes, with a dash or two from Asia. Even now I can only imagine it working in Paris. Certainly not Lyon. But in the States I can easily think of a dozen or so cities where it would work.

Regarding the lack of other ethnic influences in contemporary French cuisine, the French did it to themselves.

[chefzadi]

Pan-

The Reunion restaurant you went to...

The Portuguese "discovered" the island in the early 1500's. Apparently it was not inhabited. From the 17th-19th centuries, French immigrants and influxes of Africans, Chinese, Malays, and Malabar Indians, gave the island its cultural and culinary mix. It was an important stopover on the East Indies trade route, untill the suez canal (1860's) opened.

[FaustianBargain]

is "foriegn culinary influence" = fusion?

[Ptipois]

is "foriegn culinary influence" = fusion?

←

I believe that as soon as you have cuisine, you have fusion. The term "fusion" associated to cooking is a recent, faddy thing. But the constant exchange of culinary influences has taken place throughout the world since the beginning of cooking without being called "fusion", indeed without having so much as a name. I fail to see the difference.

And that is true for France too, in spite of our classical fear of spices that has shaped much or our classical cooking since the end of the Middle Ages.

The Asian influences on French cooking are not obvious because of the strong dichotomy between chef cuisine and home cuisine (the latter seriously on the way out). Chef cuisine is an extremely absorbent medium and catches just about everything within its reach whenever it may fit the pattern. Home cuisine is less absorbent, but also more nebulous nowadays (everybody knows what chefs cook, but who knows what people cook?

I know I cook African food at home, as well as Indian, Chinese, Thai, etc. I very seldom prepare French dishes. Some of my Parisian friends do pretty much the same. But we're exceptions and indeed many people I know don't cook at all.

However, if it is difficult to measure the Asian influence on French cooking, it is much less difficult to delineate the French influences in Vietnamese cooking. Thus Vietnamese cooking appears more obviously as a fusion food - many dishes bearing the mark of colonial France - than other Asian cuisines, i.e. that of Thailand, that has never been colonized. However, influence may also be exerted through commerce: there are some amazing similarities between some aspects of Portuguese confectionery and Thai sweets. I don't think there is such a thing as a "pure" cuisine.

Finally, Vietnamese food is a great favorite in France and in some places may be had in excellent condition, as close to the original as can be. It gets a little searching off the posh areas. And the shopping situation is wonderful: in Paris and the suburbs, you can find any imported produce from Thailand and Vietnam. I am particularly surprised at the vitality and abundance of Thai imports since Thai immigration in France is not supposed to be substantial. So far the only item of mainstream Thai food I haven't been able to find in Paris is the coriander roots.

Edited February 7, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Bux]

Rarely is the word "fusion" used to denote a dish wherein the flavors and tastes blend seamlessly as if the chef had everything under control. "Fusion," in my experience is the word used as a sort of spin control to imply that the chef's juxtaposition of flavors and foods battling for attention on the plate is somehow greater than the sum of it's parts. More often than not, it serves to focus my attention to the fact that a more talented chef wouldn't have tried this at all.

[chefzadi]

Ptipois and Bux-

Thank for answering Faust's question so eloquently.

I first heard the word "fusion" applied to cuisine in America. Yes, ptipois as soon as you have cuisine you have fusion. I've been told by people who are familiar with Moroccan cuisine that after reading my recipes of Algerian cuisine that it sounds like North African-French fusion and what are the origins of this or that? I wrote them from a personal perspective so to me they are not fusion at all. They are simply dishes that I grew up with or that I tried when I visited there. The history of Algeria is full of conquests and trade that what might look like "fusion" to the untrained eye is cuisine that has been brewing for thousands of years.

There are ancient roman ruins in the city that my parents are from and where our relatives still maintain the family farm.

Fusion is a faddy word, that seems to be on the way out. As strongly as some people react against it. There seem to be more who insist on applying it. A chef will describe the elments on a plate, the techniques used, the play of flavors, the composition. The food writer will ask about "influences"....

[DCMark]

Anyone interested in the topic may want to check out French Colonial Cooking: A Cooks Tour of the French Speaking World by David Burton. I just picked up a used copy but have not had the chance to open it yet.

French Colonial Cooking

Edited to include: I just checked the Amazon offer in more detail and see that their used booksellers want a ridiculous $58 for this book. I found it on www.half.com for $10 so if you are interested search a bit. mk

Edited February 9, 2005 by DCMark (log)

[chefzadi]

Lucy-

To throw the question back at you what have you seen in France that you would identify as having an Asian influence? Dishes? Recipes? Have you seen any restaurants, grocery stores in Lyon? Ptipois mentioned Paris. But there is Paris and then the rest of France, so to speak.

[bleudauvergne]

Lucy-

To throw the question back at you what have you seen in France that you would identify as having an Asian influence? Dishes? Recipes? Have you seen any restaurants, grocery stores in Lyon? Ptipois mentioned Paris. But there is Paris and then the rest of France, so to speak.

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Well, basically, I've been going through the recipes in Ducasse's Spoon cookbook...

The Chutney d'Algues contains altogether a group of things that I class very simply in my mind, but I wonder if there is something more behind my reading. Let me give an example. I see:

algues (rouge, blanc, vert) au sel / salted seaweed

capres

puree de wasabi

moutarde de dijon

vinaigre de xeres / sherry vinegar

huile de pepins de raisin / grapeseed oil

puree d'olive

fumet de poisson / fish stock

badiane / star anise

Tabasco

I think - tapenade - made with seaweed, capers, and olives, spiced up with mustards and spices from a variety of places. Obvious Japanese almost stereotypical ingredients.

We used to play a game as children where we'd identify things that didn't fall in a pattern although they could fall in the group. And I see the star anise as falling in that category, just being "kind of the same" but not quite.

And what about the name chutney? Is this just a convenient name that's named after a chunky sauce with a lot of spice and some acidity? Why not call it a salsa or a tapenade?

What am I learning from this as I work through these amalgams ? Is there a method somewhere in this? A reference or simply a lack of one? When it comes down to the recipes, I think that sometimes they're good, sometimes they’re useful. But sometimes I wonder if the recipes were created for a kind of linguistic reason, to pull people mentally in different directions and present a snapshot of inspiration, and not necessarily about taste or use in cooking. And yet at the same time there are the tables and combinations, and breaking things down into elements. Things are presented quite formally.

The vast compendium of recipes presents in the beginning a table of "conjugaison" (which is translated into English as "to combine" but I'm not sure these can be considered equivalent terms especially considering the cultural context), it's as if these recipes represent a basic standard upon which we can (and should, and are correct to) build. But I want to know what are we building on and how much will I be able to rely on these recipes as I build on the groups and develop repertoires from this?

[bleudauvergne]

Anyone interested in the topic may want to check out French Colonial Cooking: A Cooks Tour of the French Speaking World by David Burton.  I just picked up a used copy but have not had the chance to open it yet.

French Colonial Cooking

Edited to include: I just checked the Amazon offer in more detail and see that their used booksellers want a ridiculous $58 for this book.  I found it on www.half.com for $10 so if you are interested search a bit.  mk

←

This may be something interesting to look at. Thank you Mark. The different cultural references that have worked into the French mainstream definitely have their path of least resistance from this. It will be useful to look through it. If you get it before I do, please share your impressions from the book.

[chefzadi]

Why does Ducasse call it a chutney?

I think this website provides some clues.

http://www.algues-de-bretagne.com/mes_c_ty...icherche_3.html

[chefzadi]

Lucy-

I only see one Japanese ingredient, wasabi. Algues has been used in French cooking for a long time. As long as man has roamed the earth he has eaten basically whatever he could find that was edible. Algue is found outside of Asian waters. I don't know if the algues that Ducasse specifies is a Japanese version. My point is the use of algues was already known to the French, the Japanese simply introduced a different version.

In regards to Ducasse's cookbook. I haven't seen a copy of it. But I'm probably safe in saying that it is a collection of his recipes and not meant to be a "class" on cooking techniques.

I see recipes as a collection of ingredients. They are most interesting to me when they are written with a list of indigenous ingredients. Photos are nice so that I can see the ingredients in their final state. I do not follow them At this point in my culinary life I know what a braised piece of meat in any culinary culture should look like. You know how to cook when you stop following recipes. You are creative when you understand flavors.

The wasabi in Ducasse's recipe doesn't even have to be there. He has enough flavors going on to make it compelling without. Why is it there? The distinguishing characteristic of wasabi for me is the unique heat it creates, not on the tongue but in the nose, almost in the brain. Is this a desirable thing for a relish/chutney? What does he suggest serving it with?

EDIT: Master your cooking techniques and the world of recipes is your oyster so to speak.

Edited February 11, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[helenjp]

I've been itching to get my fists on a copy of that David Burton book.

Influences...I think that France is if anything, more isolated than the rest of Europe from direct influence.

What influences do you see as arising from French Southeast Asia? And which influences do you think are more pan-European, or even pan-Western hemisphere trends in exotic influence?

[bleudauvergne]

I have been following the recipes in the Spoon cookbook because so many of them don't follow the what I have come to know in French cooking, and I like what it's doing to my thought process, it's opening my mind. I feel it's good to follow them at least once. I guess this comes from a certain trust in Ducasse. When I cook from this book I do take it as a learning experience. There is an assumption that I know the basic techniques already, which I appreciate. But I like the suprises. It's the learning process that keeps expanding possibilities in my mind.

For example, I have rarely ever used seaweed in my cooking, frankly because it is not readily available as a seasonal ingredient at the market where I live in the Rhone Alpes. But now I see it's commmonly used in Brittany. Nor would I think of it as instinctive in French cooking to introduce wasabi, tabasco, and dijon mustard at the same time to anything - it's more like one of my crazy experiments (which those who love me have come to expect from time to time).

My original question was rather an institutional question, not a question about mastering technique, or about available ingredients, or even about what people are cooking at home. It's about what chefs choose to include as ingredients in the recipes. I want to know whether combinations of this kind seem logical in the French (culinary) mind, and where the ideas of certain of these Asian ingredients come from. It may seem like a silly question to ask in the first place since we have everything we want now shipped by air and sea, from anywhere in the world at our fingertips. I have learned, a long and difficult life lesson, that the French and American mind have different basic routes of association for very fundamental things, different conduits of reference. This becomes fruitful knowledge in the negotiation of the things that basically make our cultures different. It helps me come to a more thorough understanding of what I encounter here, and it enhances my experience.

My understanding of Chinese cuisine is basic, I would never ever claim to understand it fully, that would be a monumental project. But my understanding also comes from my having spent years cooking and dining in China, without which I would not be asking certain questions. When we eat in a restaurant China, like in France, there is a list of dishes, sometimes written, sometimes simply recited - and we choose from the list. Explanations are not necessary because the dishes, we know, are common knowledge, have been established for hundreds of years. The discussion of the dish comes from how well it is executed. In many cases you have discussion of how much liberty someone who fully understands the classic reference for a dish, has taken. You must have some point of reference in order to have an opinion in that context. The same is true in France.

The Spoon cookbook seems to transcend this idea altogether, which I find refreshing. At the same time, it's refreshing because of the very same context. If I were at la FNAC and picked up a cookbook, oh let me create in my mind, called "Sophie's Sauces", for example, and opened to page 19 where I saw a "chutney" containing wasabi, dijon mustard and tabasco, I might pass it over for another, thinking, oh another tome of "petites astuces" that may or may not be useful to me. But there is an established master here, as Ptpois has mentioned in earlier posts, a chef who is relying on the public's confidence in his certain relationship with the institution of French cooking and fine dining, who suggests we make this combination in a table of hundreds of other calculated combinations which constitute the grammar of the language of Ducasse, and it's called "Vision". I want to know, I think it's certainly legit to try and delve deeper, precisely because of this institutional association.

As I cook my way along with Spoon, which I trust is French to the very core, I am beginning to believe that it actually is "Vision" and not just a few ideas to spice up my life like those that might come in a magazine. I think that it's a good idea to at least take a concerted glance at the recipes.

So where is the chutney coming from? Most certainly not directly from India. To answer your question, chefzadi, it is to be served with scallops steamed with seaweed and vegetarian spring roll, or soft boiled eggs with bottarga (poutargue) royale (which incedentally calls for 1tsp of "raw crab roe" )with watercress seaweed salad, or alfonsio (a kind of fish) au natural with snakendos, peppers, ginger and lime stock. It's making me think.

I certainly think that ptpois is right in asking what the chefs are cooking as opposed to what the people are cooking at home, and what we as amateurs, hobbyists, are doing in between. This is not everyday cooking but I learn (and spend ) a lot from following the recipes.

I think that the chutney idea came from much closer. I'm venturing it came via England. I think that the use of dulse and wasabi in the same recipe is not accidental and is a direct reference to Japan, even if the dulse is from Brittany. I think that the star anise (badiane) is a mystery and I would like to understand why. I saw star anise at my mother-in-law's table in a sauce for fois gras two years ago (which she got from a recipe in Femme Actuel, speaking of petites astuces). Why in this recipe and not cinnamon, for instance? I am assuming the choice was deliberate and not accidental.

[bleudauvergne]

What influences do you see as arising from French Southeast Asia? And which influences do you think are more pan-European, or even pan-Western hemisphere trends in exotic influence?

←

Hi Helen, I see a lot of tropical fruits and vegetables used only in the south. My whole question is about where these influences come from, since some of them are clearly from Asia and also from many other places. I'm also asking what significance this plays in the collective mind of the institution of French cuisine.

[Ptipois]

Hi Helen, I see a lot of tropical fruits and vegetables used only in the south.  My whole question is about where these influences come from, since some of them are clearly from Asia and also from many other places.  I'm also asking what significance this plays in the collective mind of the institution of French cuisine.

←

Your question is so complex that it seems impossible to answer simply. I will give it a try, not hoping to grasp even a small portion of the matter.

If, as you recall in your first post, you discovered that in France everything is "nem this" and "nem that", I wouldn't call this an Asian influence properly speaking. Because knowing about nems and eating them is one thing, making them by rolling up various wrappers around even more various fillings is quite another. That's exactly where we find the separation between chef cooking and home cooking: French people have known nems for decades, without necessarily wishing to make them at home, and the "nem" trend in contemporary cooking is very recent. It is, essentially, a chef trend and Vietnam has little to do with it. It is a small part of the international cross-pollination of gastronomic cuisine, which is no longer national but transnational, hovering above the ground, liberated from its roots (though it may still play with them from time to time). Which includes, I believe, Ducasse and most certainly his Spoon subsection — the seaweed chutney being a most perfect example of this uprooted, transnational style, which in my mind can no longer be considered "French" cuisine. The fact that it was devised by a Frenchman has become irrelevant. Such a recipe might have sprouted just about anywhere. Besides, if a famous French chef decided to serve nothing but phat thai for awhile, it would mean there's been an Asian influence on the chef but not on French cooking in general.

So, that's why I believe trying to trace down the possible "Asian" influences on French cooking using such recipes is going on a wrong track. Because the context of this cuisine is not French at all, and its basic influences are too messed-up to help us discern any definite inspiration process. I do not mean that it has been "defrenchized", but that it cannot be claimed as being French more than it may be claimed as being North American, Australian or even Asian. The same recipe may have been created by a Singaporean chef. I do not think the presence of Western ingredients in it would be more significant than the presence of Asian ingredients in a French context.

Let's go back to the nems. The Pourcel brothers were among the first "nem-making" chefs I heard of (there may be previous examples but I do not know of them). But I can tell when they began to make nems (raspberry nems in a chocolate sauce): that was when they opened their first Asian restaurant, the one in Tokyo. Now nems are Southeast Asian and not Japanese, but this may still have a meaning.

However, Nouvelle Cuisine, in the 70's, was certainly strongly inspired by Japan. It was a tremendous change and it is still with us today. It has not only modified the way chefs cook and revolutionized haute cuisine, it also has changed the way many French people look at food and gastronomy. If I look for any Asian influence on French cooking, this is what I find.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[chefzadi]

Quote Lucy

"My original question was rather an institutional question, not a question about mastering technique, or about available ingredients, or even about what people are cooking at home. It's about what chefs choose to include as ingredients in the recipes. I want to know whether combinations of this kind seem logical in the French (culinary) mind, and where the ideas of certain of these Asian ingredients come from. It may seem like a silly question to ask in the first place since we have everything we want now shipped by air and sea, from anywhere in the world at our fingertips. I have learned, a long and difficult life lesson, that the French and American mind have different basic routes of association for very fundamental things, different conduits of reference. This becomes fruitful knowledge in the negotiation of the things that basically make our cultures different. It helps me come to a more thorough understanding of what I encounter here, and it enhances my experience."

________________________________________________________________________

Lucy-

Just as your question doesn't exist in a vacuum, neither does the answer. Some of the answer may have seemed like detours from your original question, but in order to understand the possible answers it is neccessary to have a cultural and historical idea of how the French assimiliated the post-colonials and how France is culturally speaking is responding to new immigrants. It is very different from the American experience of the "melting pot", "tossed salad" or "tapestry of many color" metaphor.

And the collective "mind" of French Chefs or the culinary establishment in France is part of the larger cultural attitudes toward what is not French.

You say "But I want to know what are we building on and how much will I be able to rely on these recipes as I build on the groups and develop repertoires from this?"

Hence my comments about cooking techniques. Those recipes are "his" they are not basic techniques or recipes to build on, so much as to be inspired by.

You ask "What am I learning from this as I work through these amalgams ?"

You are learning a set of Ducasse's recipes that he chose to share in a book.

The answer for very large questions doesn't lie in a recipe or a collection of recipes by a single chef, French or not.

I think ptipois addressed the other points I wanted to touch upon. And I do not have any noteworthy disagreements with Ptopois.

Sidenote: I will learn how to do the quote thing correctly. It will take me a little time. I'm sure it's simple. But I'm not computer oriented.

[chefzadi]

I've been itching to get my fists on a copy of that David Burton book.

Influences...I think that France is if anything, more isolated than the rest of Europe from direct influence.

What influences do you see as arising from French Southeast Asia? And which influences do you think are more pan-European, or even pan-Western hemisphere trends in exotic influence?

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Yes and no. The answer is not so simple. These are the border countries of France Andorra 56.6 km, Belgium 620 km, Germany 451 km, Italy 488 km, Luxembourg 73 km, Monaco 4.4 km, Spain 623 km, Switzerland 573 km. French regional cuisine is informed by this. Britanny is more celtic than it is French. If you go from there to Provence, it's almost like being in a different country. The cooking of the Pays Basque is different from the north. There is olive oil based regions and the butter regions. France was a colonial force as well. Parts of Africa, Asia, Polynesia,etc... The French colonizer was not as segregationist as say the Anglo one. French post-colononials were "welcomed" to France to do hard labor jobs mostly. But their children were accepted as French with all the benefits of being French, great FREE education being only one. France also has been invaded many times. To be French is not to be something "ethnically pure". A blond French couple would not be too surprised to have a child with dark hair. The model for what makes a pluralistic society is different over there. I might add that it is for the most part a quite peaceable one. Sometimes it is good look for what is missing in a country or culture. Sometimes it's better to look at what the country or culture has achieved.

I might add all this "celebrating diversity" in America is relatively new.

Edited February 13, 2005 by chefzadi (log)