"The Bread Baker's Apprentice" by Reinhart

[Marcia]

jgarner53, thanks for the information about the "ballon proofing"! I read something similar in the book but I couldn't understand... Now I do! Thanks, I'll look for a big kitchen bag (not all bags are appropriated, are they? - i know petroleum based bags are a no-no).

Transparent, i hope you get your copy soon! Maybe you could also keep an eye on Ebay to see if you can find it...?

chromedome, thanks for you tip! there's a shop here in uk (lakeland limited) that sells a plastic cover for cooking books ! I'll think about it.

glossyp, thank you! please let us know how your bread turned out! By the way, I also read the jackal10's thread about the Sourdough Bread and the pictures there are so great, aren't they? I can wait to try to grow my own wild yeast one day. I hope we get some answers about how to succed in a humid climate. Because as you know, England do little but rain ...

kjente2, good point! PR does indeed explain the danger of spraying water on glass parts of the oven like the light and door, but he advises to cover with a towel, he doesn't mention it sould be wet...

Marcia

Edited January 23, 2005 by Marcia (log)

[merrybaker]

I apologize if this if OT but I continue to have extreme difficulty creating a seed culture. After five failed attempts I have given up (prevented me from making the pannetone I wanted to for Christmas). I have read jackal10's Sourdough Bread thread as well and incorporated suggestions but have yet to succeed. Has anyone out there done successful sourdough in a hot and humid climate? Our average ambient temp is 85F and humidity is 80% plus. If so, please divulge your secrets...please...

Have you tried the starter (barm) from Reinhart's Crust and Crumb? That's the only one that ever worked for me. It's different from the one he uses in Bread Baker's Apprentice. I lived in the North when I started it, but used it successfully for two years in Florida. Here's a link to the recipe:

http://www.kyleskitchen.net/bar_formula.htm

Also, have you tried the free Oregon Trail starter you can get from http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ A lot of people have good luck with that one.

Good luck!

[glossyp]

Have you tried the starter (barm) from Reinhart's Crust and Crumb?  That's the only one that ever worked for me.  It's different from the one he uses in Bread Baker's Apprentice.  I lived in the North when I started it, but used it successfully for two years in Florida.  Here's a link to the recipe:

http://www.kyleskitchen.net/bar_formula.htm

Also, have you tried the free Oregon Trail starter you can get from http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/    A lot of people have good luck with that one.

Good luck!

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Thank you so much merrybaker! I am going directly to the link and give it a try. If that doesn't work I'll send for the Oregon Trail. I'll let you know what happens. An experienced pastry chef here in Hawaii told me it is extremely difficult to start one here but didn't say anything about an keeping an imported one alive. Thanks again!

[chromedome]

IIRC Madeleine Kamman recommended the refrigerator crisper drawer for those in hot, humid climates.

...though on second thought, that may have been just for SF-style starters. I don't remember for sure.

[Anni]

Anni, thank you. Oh I need to try the Pane Siciliano one day. Need to go and buy some semolina. Have you tried baking this pain a l'ancienne yet? 

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Nope, not that I can recall. I've made the Potato Rosemary a few times (excellent, love this bread... nice and moist, great for sandwiches), Panettone twice, Stollen a number of times, and various sourdoughs. I've generally had good luck with PR's seed culture and barm, but had one batch go weird on me last month. I usually put that down to not having a clean enough container at some point in the process.

[glossyp]

I made the pain a l'ancienne and while the results weren't brilliant they weren't horrible. I mixed the dough and placed in the frig around 6pm on Saturday evening. I took it out at 6am but it didn't warm up and double in size until around 2pm Sunday afternoon. The dough was very soft and wet as it was supposed to be but I was able to successfully shape and get it into the oven without problem. (I halved the recipe, weighing all ingredients and it made two good sized baquettes.)

My oven is a challenge as the heat is unpredictable (rental house with very old electric oven) and I used the improvised steam method. The problem was I put the steam pan on the top rack (can't use the oven floor as the heating element is there) and the bread on the bottom of a sheet pan with parchment on the lower rack. Preheating to 550F, steaming and then backing off to 475F. At 9 minutes it showed good oven spring and was browning nicely. By 15 minutes the bottoms were starting to burn. I checked the internal temp and it was just hitting 205F so I took them out to avoid serious burning on the bottom.

The good news is there were a lot of nice holes in the bread and the flavor was nice. The downside was that the crust wasn't a deep golden brown and it didn't have a nice "crunch" to it. Next time I will reverse the placement of the steam pan and the bread.

The best news is that the bread made really tasty Italian-style roast beef sandwiches for lunch today.

Thanks again, Marcia, for getting me baking again!

[lovebenton0]

Reading through the thread there seems to be a Pain a L'Ancienne kick right now and I baked the same today, started yesterday. I made three as stick baguettes, and three as the ciabatta. I like your idea of dividing into four instead of six, Elie, I'll do that next time for larger baguettes.

After overnight in the fridge the dough came awake and alive easily this morning after three hours in a still chilly kitchen.

Baguettes

Had a hard time getting a pic of the crumb that showed anything but white flash.

Ciabatta. The oven jumped in temp after turning these and they are darker than I wanted, but still taste good and the texture was not harmed.

Yes, there's only two of us here also. Elie, our bread consumption must be close to yours. I bake most of our bread and we probably do consume more than most.

Baguettes made a nice meal tonight.

[Marcia]

I made the pain a l'ancienne and while the results weren't brilliant they weren't horrible. I mixed the dough and placed in the frig around 6pm on Saturday evening. I took it out at 6am but it didn't warm up and double in size until around 2pm Sunday afternoon. The dough was very soft and wet as it was supposed to be but I was able to successfully shape and get it into the oven without problem. (I halved the recipe, weighing all ingredients and it made two good sized baquettes.)

My oven is a challenge as the heat is unpredictable (rental house with very old electric oven) and I used the improvised steam method. The problem was I put the steam pan on the top rack (can't use the oven floor as the heating element is there) and the bread on the bottom of a sheet pan with parchment on the lower rack. Preheating to 550F, steaming and then backing off to 475F. At 9 minutes it showed good oven spring and was browning nicely. By 15 minutes the bottoms were starting to burn. I checked the internal temp and it was just hitting 205F so I took them out to avoid serious burning on the bottom.

The good news is there were a lot of nice holes in the bread and the flavor was nice. The downside was that the crust wasn't a deep golden brown and it didn't have a nice "crunch" to it. Next time I will reverse the placement of the steam pan and the bread.

The best news is that the bread made really tasty Italian-style roast beef sandwiches for lunch today.

Thanks again, Marcia, for getting me baking again!

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Glossyp, it's great! I'm pleased your pain a l'ancienne was nice and tasty ! Well done. I loved the taste of this bread and also loved its delicious aroma! That's the most important, isn't it? I have the same problem with the oven and the crust of my loaves weren't very crunchy either. Have you got a pizza stone? Mine is a cheap and thin one but I think it helps a bit. jgarner53 also recommended a humid and warm proofing with a big food-grade plastic bag. PR says the same trick can be done in a microwave oven: bring a cup of water nearly to a boil, then place the dough inside and close the door. My dough also took a long time to wake up after coming out of the fridge, so I did the microwave trick and it took another hour or so to rise, but it didn't doubled the size.

---

I think my next try will be the French Bread. I know it's hard to reproduce it at home (and with a dumb oven) but I'll give it a go to see what kind of french bread am I able to make.

Marcia

[Marcia]

lovebenton0, WOW thanks for sharing the pictures! Your loaves are great, and the texture looks fantastic, exactly what I wanted to achieve! And your sandwich was simply mouth-watering with aspargus and olives!!

Marcia

[lovebenton0]

lovebenton0, WOW thanks for sharing the pictures! Your loaves are great, and the texture looks fantastic, exactly what I wanted to achieve! And your sandwich was simply mouth-watering with aspargus and olives!! 

Marcia

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Thanks, Marcia. So glad you started this thread. I had thought about it myself after getting the BBA, but was just a slug -- glad you did it.

Definitely need to have the steam pan below the bread, glossyp. And a good sub for a bread/pizza stone is to hit your local HomeDepot or flooring center and pick up four or six large, thick, plain clay tiles, place together in your oven on the bottom shelf. There should be a couple inches of space around the square of tiles. Leave it in your oven, it really will help with heat distibution all the time and great for baking bread and pizza. Heat the stone for about an hour before baking for best results.

The foccacia is another good rustic bread from BBA also. Very versatile. You can you halve that if you don't want the full 12"x17" pan and bake it in a smaller pan. Or save half back and fridge the dough for two or three days and it makes great pizza also.

[FoodMan]

Judith, these look excellent!! What's in the sandwich?

As I type I have a half recipe of Piolane Miche in the fridge retarding. Hopefully I will bake it tonight and report. If you check out the PR Q&A you'll see in one of my Qs that I have problem getting this one. This time I used King Arthur's White Wheat flour instead of the regular wheat. I also let the dough rise for an extended period of time before shaping. I hope this makes a difference. I will report either way.

Elie

[merrybaker]

I find it's easiest to cut the pain a l'ancienne into strips while it's still cold from the fridge. Then let it warm up right on the parchment.

[lovebenton0]

Judith, these look excellent!! What's in the sandwich?

As I type I have a half recipe of Piolane Miche in the fridge retarding. Hopefully I will bake it tonight and report. If you check out the PR Q&A you'll see in one of my Qs that I have  problem getting this one. This time I used King Arthur's White Wheat flour instead of the regular wheat. I also let the dough rise for an extended period of time before shaping. I hope this makes a difference. I will report either way.

Elie

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Thanks. In the sandwich -- thin slices of pan grilled ham from a shank we had pecan-smoked earlier, stuck in shredded mozz between layers of ham (which semi-melted from the heat), bread smeared with crushed red pepper aioli, topped with green leaf lettuce. Simple, but it was so good. Really pleased with the hard crust on this bread.

I just finished reading (again) the Poilane-style miche you are baking today, Elie. Look forward to your report and pics on that one. It is going on my list to try soon. We love sourdough. I have a mother starter going I've kept running for about 5 years now, but want to try PR's barm. I like the King Arthur flours also. Think when I do that one I'll try the combination of the bread flour and whole wheat first as he suggests. See how that works for me. But your report could change my mind.

edit to add: I like your sig line, Elie.

Edited January 25, 2005 by lovebenton0 (log)

[glossyp]

Thanks lovebenton0 for the suggestion about the clay tiles. For some unknown reason I thought they were supposed to be placed on the floor of the oven and since that isn't possible due to the heating element, I never tried. I'll put them on the bottom rack and just leave them there.

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

Great thread! I'm loving all of the pictures.

[lovebenton0]

Thanks lovebenton0 for the suggestion about the clay tiles. For some unknown reason I thought they were supposed to be placed on the floor of the oven and since that isn't possible due to the heating element, I never tried. I'll put them on the bottom rack and just leave them there.

The reason you thought that is because if you are lining your oven that is what is recommended. However, for a baking stone, and for those of us that cannot do that, the alternative is the bottom rack, and it works great. Try it, I think you'll be pleased.

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

Great thread! I'm loving all of the pictures.

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[Marcia]

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

←

glossyp it was jgarner53 who suggested the bag proofing, I haven't tried that myself yet . I only tried inside the microwave oven, like PR suggests in his book. I warmed up a glass of water until just before it boils. Then I turned it off, placed the dough inside and closed the door. There was barely any condensation inside. I think you're right for being worried about the amount of condensation on your dough, but I really don't know for sure if that's a problem or not. I hope someone else can help you better than me.

[FoodMan]

When I lived in an apartment with an electric oven, I put my quary tile on the lowest rack as well. Now, with a gas oven I have it on the floor of the oven.

Elie

[glossyp]

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

←

glossyp it was jgarner53 who suggested the bag proofing, I haven't tried that myself yet . I only tried inside the microwave oven, like PR suggests in his book. I warmed up a glass of water until just before it boils. Then I turned it off, placed the dough inside and closed the door. There was barely any condensation inside. I think you're right for being worried about the amount of condensation on your dough, but I really don't know for sure if that's a problem or not. I hope someone else can help you better than me.

←

Thanks for pointing out the correct poster on that method - I can get confused running through all of the posts. I'll redirect the question to jgarner53.

[glossyp]

For the warm, humid proofing, I put the loaf(ves) on a sheet pan with semolina or parchment and place that in a clean kitchen garbage bag with a cup of steaming hot (preferably boiling) water. I close up the bag and then inflate it like a giant balloon, and place it in a warm spot. I check on it periodically, depending on the length of the rise, to replace the water, reinflate the bag, check the loaves.

This was suggested by the chef instructor at a CA Culinary Academy weekend bread class I took last year as a way to get around not having a commercial proofing oven. It seems to work well for me.

As to the spraying, I spritz when the loaf goes in, and then twice more (at least 5 or so good sprays each time), at about 1-2 minute intervals.

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Aloha jgarner53, I have a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with a batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided? Thanks for your time and thanks to marcia for steering me to the correct poster!

[Sthitch]

Great pictures, I had similar results using this recipe. I have found that I get the best results by using two baking stones, one that the bread sits on and the other on the top shelf. It really helps to replicate a hearth. This weekend I made the Middle Class Brioche for Cinimon Buns, and the dough was incredible. I also made the Vienna Bread, it was light and airy, like nothing I have ever had.

[jgarner53]

glossyp,

I don't really worry about the condensation at all. Most if it (in my experience) stays on the bag. I'm using a small jelly jar (about 12 oz capacity), about 2/3 full. And any condensation I've noticed hasn't affected the bread results at all.

This weekend, though, I'll try the microwave trick (yet another good use for the microwave!). For those who use this trick, do you have to periodically take the bread out and reheat the water?

Your bread is gorgeous though. I don't know what you're worrying about.

[glossyp]

glossyp,

I don't really worry about the condensation at all. Most if it (in my experience) stays on the bag. I'm using a small jelly jar (about 12 oz capacity), about 2/3 full. And any condensation I've noticed hasn't affected the bread results at all.

This weekend, though, I'll try the microwave trick (yet another good use for the microwave!). For those who use this trick, do you  have to periodically take the bread out and reheat the water?

Your bread is gorgeous though. I don't know what you're worrying about. 

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Thanks for your answer. I was using almost twice that much water which would account for the excess liquid. And, I cannot take credit for the lovely loaves pictured above as they were crafted by lovebenton0. Maybe soon I'll be brave enough to post photos of my bread too

[Marcia]

Judith, these look excellent!! What's in the sandwich?

As I type I have a half recipe of Piolane Miche in the fridge retarding. Hopefully I will bake it tonight and report. If you check out the PR Q&A you'll see in one of my Qs that I have  problem getting this one. This time I used King Arthur's White Wheat flour instead of the regular wheat. I also let the dough rise for an extended period of time before shaping. I hope this makes a difference. I will report either way.

Elie

←

Elie, i'm looking forward to see your Poilane-style miche! Hope it's nice!!

[Marcia]

Great pictures, I had similar results using this recipe.  I have found that I get the best results by using two baking stones, one that the bread sits on and the other on the top shelf.  It really helps to replicate a hearth.  This weekend I made the Middle Class Brioche for Cinimon Buns, and the dough was incredible.  I also made the Vienna Bread, it was light and airy, like nothing I have ever had.

←

Hi Sthitch! Good tip about using two stones! I might buy a better thick one and use my pizza stone on the top shelf. And ohhhh Cinnamon Buns! They are delicious!! I want to try to make it one day but then we'll need to go for a long workout afterwards to burn all the calories !

Marcia

Edited January 26, 2005 by Marcia (log)

[DiH]

This weekend, though, I'll try the microwave trick (yet another good use for the microwave!). For those who use this trick, do you  have to periodically take the bread out and reheat the water?

I tried it a couple weeks ago... it worked great! Yes, I re-boiled the water (stovetop) after one hour. Tons of condensation inside the microwave tho' so I'm awfully glad I'd thought to cover the dough.

Di

Edited January 26, 2005 by DiH (log)