A chat with chef Igles Corelli

[Igles Corelli]

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your taking the time to express yourself.  This is a true pleasure as well as very interesting and eductional for me.  You/your wife are also gifted to be able to write so beautifully!  The last topic was particularly timely since having recently returned from Le Calandre (I live near Washington, D. C.) I have friends who do not and cannot associate this type of creativity with Italy.  I find their attitudes particularly frustrating yet they have an image that is inflexible no matter what I say or what they may taste.  Thank you for your effort and your knowledge.

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Thank you, Joe. Food is so subjective! Even Italians have the same attitude as your friends ...

[Igles Corelli]

As co-forum host (but having nothing to do with organizing this chat), I want to say how bowled over I am by Igles and how grateful I am to Albiston for making it possible. I know how busy chefs (and their wives) are, so to be presented with the depth and quality of participation that we have here is a rare gift from Igles and Pia to eGullet. In return, all Albiston and I can ask for is that everyone who is within a fair distance from Igles' restaurant to please make the effort to have a meal or two there. I know I will. It's something I very much look forward to.

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Thank you Robert. We look forward to meet you as well as all other eGulleters who'll pass by.

Igles & Pia

[Igles Corelli]

In return, all Albiston and I can ask for is that everyone who is within a fair distance from Igles' restaurant to please make the effort to have a meal or two there.

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On the homepage of the Locanda, there's a mention of a cooking school. "Not being sure if this is OK with the new policy" , I'm ventilating the idea of a day with an "eG class" there. I know it's completely unrealistic or downright impossible, but OTOH the wholism presented here is something that touches my soul, hence I couldn't resist. Gals and guys, just to think about it is a pleasure.

Dear Pia and Ingles:

"what we cook is not what really matters"

If passionate, professional chefs say something like this, a taoist would know that they are already pretty close ...

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[Igles Corelli]

On the homepage of the Locanda, there's a mention of a cooking school. "Not being sure if this is OK with the new policy" , I'm ventilating the idea of a day with an "eG class" there. I know it's completely unrealistic or downright impossible, but OTOH the wholism presented here is something that touches my soul, hence I couldn't resist.  Gals and guys, just to think about it is a pleasure.

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Boris,

It is a stimulating proposal. If more people are interested we could talk about making this an official eGullet event (therefore something we could organize on the Forum). I'll ask Igles and Pia for the practical detials and I'd suggest that anyone interested contacts me in private. Anyone interested should kindly refrain from posting any further comments to this idea on this thread

[...]

On our side ... it's possible to organize it and it would be a pleasure. Albiston you know how to get in touch with us.

[chefzadi]

Bravo! A standing ovation and a salute to Chef Corelli. The Chef of chefs (chief of chiefs). I would recommend to all my students that they read your posts very carefully again and again untill they have thoroughly digested your pearls of wisdom.

I think that a few "celebrity" chefs would benefit as well.

[Igles Corelli]

Igles and Pia, thanks very much for joining us.

We have a few hard-core lovers of becaccia (Scolopax Rusticola, woodcock, becada in Spain, becasse in France) in the site. What could you tell us about cooking this bird? Do you favor long periods of faisandage?

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Pedro, I love cooking game in general and beccaccia (is it woodcock in English?) is the queen of all game! Actually I think that I owe to game part of my "fame" in Italy as a chef, because I was cooking it when it was unusual to find it in restaurants in Italy and because I was cooking it in a way far different from tradition.

Tradition means long faisandage, marinades and long cooking, in order to "reduce the wild taste" . I was puzzled by this at the time. If someone is eating a wild food, why should wish to cancel its wild taste?!

So I started my experiments and found my way to game cuisine.

Game meat is stiff, compared to that of farmed animals, because they use their muscles and have very little grease between the fibers. So adding some fat, was one point.

Tenderness of meat, of any kind, depends also on the size of muscolar fibers. The thinner they are, the tender the meat is. Young animals have thin fibers because they haven't abused of their muscles yet. They can be easily broken, therefore the meat is more tender. So looking for young animals, was the second point.

When you expose meat to temperature the gresy cells starts to melt and help to separate fibers. These start to reduce in thickness. At about 55°C (I don't know the figure in °F!) they begin to shrink, reducing their length. Increasing the temperature the cells expel the liquids (which amount to about 75% of their composition) and the meat becomes drier and drier. At about 80°C it is almost completely dry. 3rd point was not to overcook meat, so it remains juicy and tender (let's say about 60°C at the core) because fibers are shorter and thinner and fragile, but still humid and there is no need to exceed with grease ...

Faisandage contributes to the decay of fibers, therefore it is necessary with "old" animals but it is useless with young wild animals and with breeded animals (as they are grown today, unfortunately, with the animals kept often immobile for their short life), above all if you cook the meat at the point.

Marinade has the same purpose. The acid substances contribute to the decay of fibers, they are hopefully expected to reduce bacteria contamination and spices cover the taste of rottening.

As you may have understood I'm against excessive faisandage (2-3 days in the fridge, maximum, is what I do for some animals, no faisandage at all for others), totally against marinades, and in favour of short cooking time, starting with high temperature.

I never serve animals with bones and all, in my restaurant. I love to eat skewers of small birds, cooked whole, wrapped in lard, over the fire but in the restaurant I feel that people expect less complications. Therefore all the wild birds that I cook (there are so many varieties, in the right season) consist of their breasts (the most tender of all parts) stuffed in some way (rolled or as a sandwich) with the minced meat of their legs (stiffer). I may add something greasy into the stuffing (lard, pancetta, foie-gras) or wrap the roll with pancetta, lard or crepinette.

I roast it quickly in a pan at high temperature, for few minutes, then I usually complete cooking into the oven at about 180°C for about 8 or 10 minutes. When I remove the meat from the oven I let it rest for about 5-6 minutes on a griddle, so the juices, extracted towards the outside from temperature can be redistributed among the fibers. The griddle avoids that meat-crust softens. I use all caramelized juices to add flavour to the sauce.

This is the way I usually work, with all kind of meat.

Now, dinner is ready for Pia, so I'll give you a recipe for woodcock later.

Igles

Edited January 23, 2005 by Igles Corelli (log)

[Igles Corelli]

Bravo! A standing ovation and a salute to Chef Corelli. The Chef of chefs (chief of chiefs).  I would recommend to all my students that they read your posts very carefully again and again untill they have thoroughly digested your pearls of wisdom.

I think that a few "celebrity" chefs would benefit as well. 

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Just before leaving for a couple of hours, thanks Chefzadi ... with all my simpathy!

[Pan]

Igles and Pia, thank you so much for a fascinating Q&A!

Chef Corelli, why are you dead set against marinades?

[Igles Corelli]

Igles and Pia, thanks very much for joining us.

We have a few hard-core lovers of becaccia (Scolopax Rusticola, woodcock, becada in Spain, becasse in France) in the site. What could you tell us about cooking this bird?

[...] I'll give you a recipe for woodcock later.

Igles

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Here is a possible recipe for woodcock.

WOODCOCK WITH CEPS PUDDING, TRADITIONAL BALSAMIC VINEGAR SAUCE

Ingredients for 4 persons:

Meat: 4 woodcocks - 200 g of duck foie gras - crepinette - extra-virgin olive oil . salt - pepper

Pudding: 200 g ceps - 1 clove of garlic - fresh leaves of "pimpinella" (salad burnet?) - 240 g of cream - 1 egg - 2 yolks - 50 g of grated Parmesan cheese - extra-virgin olive oil - salt -pepper

Sauce: 1/2 shallot -2 tbsp white wine - 100 g of woodcock broth -4 teasp of Traditional Balsamic Vinegar - extra-virgin olive oil - sal - pepper

Slice the foie gras in 4 slices and and brown them on both sides, in a pan, without any grease, at very high temperature and for a very short time. Season with salt and pepper. Make a sandwich with the two halves of the breasts of the woodcock and the foie gras in between (Use the legs to prepare the broth and bones and trimmings for the stock). Wrap the breast sandwiches with the crepinette and cook it as explained before.

Slice the mushrooms, stir them quickly in a large pan, with some olive oil and the garlic. Salt and pimpinella at the end. Remove the garlic and process the ceps in a blender. Filter the blended mushrooms through a seeve. Pour it in a casserole and let it reduce on the fire. When it is warm, add and mix all other ingredients for the pudding. Apply some melted butter into 4 moulds and pour the mixture for the pudding. Cook them in a steamer for about 18 minutes or until they become firm.

Prepare the stock, roasting bones and trimmings in a pan with some oil. Add the minced shallot, stir it, ad the wine and let it reduce, add the broth and let it reduce of 1/3. Crack bones in order to obtain more taste. Filter through a sieve and reduce on the fire by half. Remove from the pan and blend the stock with Balsamic vinegar.

Remove the puddings from the moulds and put them into the dishes, add the woodcock breasts and the sauce, complete with caramelized cherry tomatoes and garnish with some fresh leaves of pimpinella.

Igles

I hope that I translated it properly.

Pia

[Igles Corelli]

[...]

In the UK there seems to be a culture of supporting and mentoring cooks - [...]. Of course it's not all roses and benevolent "wiser" cooks - it is more about taking care of interests and having the need for good chefs. In Italy there doesn't seem to be this mentoring culture since there doesn't seem to be the need by one famous chef to handle many different restaurants. Is this really the case or am I missing something?

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Dear Katia and Ronald (are you two ?), you are right. Mentoring is not so common in Italy, or maybe was not. Things have been changed.

For many years chefs have been divided and jealous of their secrets (!???).

Some people working in restaurants were not moved by passion, but by the need of a job. In our past we have been afflicted by people without any kind of professionalism, just confident that, without specific competence in any field, they could have managed a restaurant. What's so difficult in cooking food as you do everyday in your house?! If somebody couldn't do any job, he applied as a waiter ... It was also easy to avoid paying taxes, therefore running a restaurant was a good business.

It is not like that anymore (except for waiters, they are still a problem. Good ones are few and very difficult to find). Many chefs that I know are mentoring the young people that work with them. I'm always doing it to such an extent that sometimes I'm not able to get rid of them!!!! I'm joking, of course. It's nice to deal with people who feel affection for you and that come periodically for a visit or to refresh their knowledge.

I know people that own more than a restaurant, but they are not chefs and their restaurants are more on the business side rather than the quality&care.

The problem seems to be that in Italy, chefs and owners of small gourmet restaurants (usually it is the same person) are not managing their restaurants as a business but as a hobby. Let's say that a gourmet restaurant in Italy is not a good investment, unless it is useful to generate business elsewhere. It's the case of La Pergola at Hilton Hotel, of Vissani, even of myself. La Pergola, Heinz beck and his achievements ar a wonderful promotion for the hotel, me and Gianfranco too would not be on TV, or wouldn't be asked for consulting, events etc. without a restaurant with some visibility.

When you read that a chef has opened a second restaurant it usually means that has given his name to the operation. I know only a couple of colleagues able to manage directly more than one restaurant. One is Moreno Cedroni, who besides his restaurant Madonnina del Pescatore, has opened Aniko, a fish delikatessen and take-away, a seasonal bar, Il Clandestino on the beautiful shore of Portonovo and is also managing a laboratory for the production of jellies and jams. The other is Enrico Cerea, Da Vittorio in Bergamo.

If you think that there are chef-owners that close their restaurant if they are called elsewhere!

[Igles Corelli]

I haven't had much time to follow this or other eGullet threads over the pat few days, but reading through the posts today has been a real pleasure. The insights and wisdom coming from Chef Corelli are truly valuable and have given me a greater understanding of the cuisine of Italy and the role of food in the culture and I thank Chef Corelli and Pia for that. I am anticipating your additional discussion avidly.

As a new, but now "hard-core lover of becaccia", I second Pedro's questions, and would add, what other game, birds or otherwise, do you value most highly and what special modes of preparation do you require for them?

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John, what I like of game, is that the meat has so many different tastes, depending on what the animal has been eating. The breeded animals are not that way. If you smell a partridge you feel the berries and the moor. If you smell a thrush you feel the juniper ... Can you imagine what it means for a chef to rely on such ingredients?!

When I cook them, I try not to cover their natural taste. Besides wild animals I also love wild fruits and vegetables and they are often an ideal accompaniment.

Although it's not easy to find them, in my restaurant I'm dealing with birds, mainly those living in humid environments, such as wild ducks, widgeons, coots, pochards, shovelers, teals, snipes, but also woodcocks, wild geese, hares ...

I hope that this reply, together with the one given to Pedro is satisfying you. I've just published a book about my game recipes, but I'm sorry, it's only in Italian.

I'm feeling the pressure of the expiring deadline and I'm not sure until when I'll be able to reply to all questions ... there are still 5 or 6 missing and now I have to leave, because we are both tired.

[Igles Corelli]

Igles and Pia, thank you so much for a fascinating Q&A!

Chef Corelli, why are you dead set against marinades?

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I'm not against marinades in general, I'm not in favour when game meat is concerned, if the purpose is to cover the wild natural taste and when they are used before cooking. I think that in this case they are useless ... but I use marinades instead of cooking, for instance with fish or I use them when they may add some flavour that I feel that is matching the original ...

[Igles Corelli]

Ciao Ciao Ciccino Corelli.......

Italy is a country rich of extraordinary food products as well as of extraordinary creations that, being “daily” for us, we tend to under-estimate, positioning them at the lowest level of our food system. I’m thinking of pizza, pasta and ice-creams.

I think that Italians should be aware of the great value of this gastronomic heritage while this consciousness seems to belong to foreigners . We need education and resources, as it is for all kind of long-term investments.

In your opinion, what should we do to give to our gastronomic heritage the place it should deserve in the international media’s consideration?

Why most of young, ambitious and creative chefs in the world have included siphon and jelly preparations, following Adria’s experiments and have never tried the challenge of a proper but innovative pasta dish?

Crazycow28

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Ciao Mucca! So here is where you live your virtual life! Did you find fresh and good grass on these pastures? Nice to meet you once more on the web.

You know that my top-ten of favourite food starts with pizza, salami, nutella Indeed your listing includes food that represents Italy abroad, and probably more could be done on this respect. I think that I've already commented this somewhere on this thread.

Why young chefs are not expressing their creativity with pasta, rather than foams and jellies?

I don't know ... maybe it is because we are so conservative about our traditions ...

Although, thinking of this, I recall some interesting dishes that came out from chefs' experiments over the years.

The "Raviolo aperto" ("open"), actually a "lasagna", created by Guasltiero Marchesi. The idea was more conceptual than innovative: to bring the stuffing outside.

The "Raviolo" stuffed with the raw egg-yolk, a signature dish from Valentino Marcattilii of San Domenico in Imola.

The many kind of Raviolis, stuffed with fish, quite common today but not in the tradition.

The Raviolo stuffed with tomato, created by Fulvio Pierangelini, if I'm not wrong, of Gambero Rosso in San Vincenzo, where the sauce is hidden "inside" the pasta, and the stuffing becomes a sauce.

Or, a raviolo, once more, stuffed with jelly. Who was the author? Maybe Massimo Bottura from La Francescana in Modena.

And, if I can quote myself, the Crispy lasagna, the Paccheri filled with shrimps and ricotta cheese, the Deep-fried egg-noodles or the semolina pasta cooked as a risotto are also ideas about how to cook pasta in a different way. Nothing so revolutionary, but different.

Pasta, and pizza too, are so neutral and versatile at the same time ... It's possible that any house-wife along our history has already invented everything.

Creativity doesn't mean just "strange". It has more to do with "unexpected". Quite often creativity relies on combining exixting things in a way different from ordinary. It is difficult and rare, to invent something really new. You may play on temperatures (something usually eaten hot is served cold) or on textures or consistencies (something hard is served soft), on the contrasts, on inusual combinations etc. etc. ... With pasta all this has already been done over the centuries. Think of the traditional (and ancient) Torta tagliolina, a sweet cake topped with thin egg-noodles, that become crispy after being cooked into the oven: pasta used for a dessert, crispy rather than soft! Or to the many "Pasticcio di pasta" popular all over Italy: pasta becomes the filling, inside a dough case.

I'd like to stress one important point written by you. We need more education on food and more self-esteem concerning our products. We need also to promote us more effectively. As you said, it is a long-term investment.

[Igles Corelli]

Ciccino Corelli.............

Chez Panisse become famous in US and in the world during the early 70ies, for its “alternative” attitude to cuisine of the period, creating a Californian style, although based on French cuisine. In the same period in Italy Marchesi, Santin at Antica Osteria del Ponte, Morini at San Domenico or Paracucchi, were trying to change Italian cuisine without leaving the stiffest French style. In that period restaurants in Italy were “trattorie” that prepared basically home food. In the States fast-food seemed to be the basis.

Why Italy, starting in the same period to revolution food & restaurants, has never succeeded to jump in pole-position with its chefs in the International hall of fame of contemporary cuisine?

Crazycow28

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Because we are not as good as French or Americans are with marketing, PR and communication in general.

[Igles Corelli]

Speaking of Cantarelli, I really do believe that what they did could be a model for the "Italian way" to gastronomic restaurants. I suspect the reason that this model did not really take off is that it would be difficult to gain any recognition from Michelin with a restaurant like that and without Michelin, gastronomic restaurants struggle to survive. What do you think?

Thank you again.

Francesco

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Francesco,

I think that we should be grateful to you for the rest of our lives!!! We (me, Pia, oher colleagues, friends) have been discussing and thinking so many times of how a restaurant should have been, to be "Italian". We couldn't accept the "trattoria" style. There is nothing wrong with it, when it is not stereotyped (you know the Chianti fiascos, salami and garlic hanging everywhere and the owner singing with the mandolino), but if the "competition" is with gastronomic restaurants in other countries, we should be in some way comparable. And what we have done up to know, as far as gastronomic restaurants are concerned, has been to copy the French style. Mirrors and glasses and silver and brocades and nozy waiters with white gloves, warm as a sorbet ... We have been following a model that did not belong to us, but that was also indicated as "the model" by the media and the gastronomic critics.

Cantarelli was alone and too avant-guard to become a model. If his restaurant had survived him, probably our restaurants would be different today. But you are right. This is the way to the Italian gastronomic restaurant. We had the solution under our nose and weren't able to see it. Thank you Francesco.

And ... who cares about Michelin (it's not true, we do! )! Anyway, they are not treating Italian restaurants with a benevolent eye, even now. Only 3 3-stars restaurants in Italy? Less than in other countries? There is something that doesn't fit!

Igles

PS. Yes, without Michelin recognition survival is hard. It means about 30% plus or minus in your annual turn-over. Why other guides (Italian) haven't been able to become more important than Michelin in the consideration of restaurant owners and chefs, of customers, of the media in general? Why all these people are always referring to Michelin awards to describe sintetically the "standard" of a restaurant?

[albiston]

. . . All things must come to an end, and so does this chat.

I would like to wholeheartedly thank Igles and Pia for the time they've dedicated to us. The depth and quality of their replies has made this thread a real pleasure to read, managing to make some terribly stimulating points about the cooking profession and Italian cuisine in the process. chefazdi wrote:

I would recommend to all my students that they read your posts very carefully again and again untill they have thoroughly digested your pearls of wisdom.

I believe the same could be positive for some journalist who write about Italian food and dismiss the restaurant scene as being pretentious and essentially French.

I can only hope that Igles will find a little time in his extremely busy schedule to visit us every now and then and, as Robert already mentioned, the least we could to to thank him is try out the Locanda della Tamerice if we're in the area. I know I will.

I would also like to thank all those who posted questions on this thread, they were all incredibly stimulating and helped make this a great chat.

This thread will now remain open for one or two days still to allow Igles to add any last minute reply he might find necessary and for everyone else to add their concluding remarks if they wish to do so. New questions, on the other hand, will be deleted. Thank you once more.

[francesco]

I just wanted to renew my appreciation for Igles, Pia and of course Alberto who made the session possible. I hope Igles and Pia will find the time to partecipate in the forum in the future.

A visit to Ferrara and to the Locanda has long been in the back of my mind, so I hope that either by myself, or (even better) with fellow egulleteers, this will come true soon.

Francesco

[Boris_A]

Pia and Ingles, auguri e mille grazie! Ci vediamo. (Congrats and thousand thanks! We'll meet there.)

Thank you Alberto, for arranging this wonderful chat!

(even better) with fellow egulleteers, this will come true soon.

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Let's rally!

[hathor]

What a marvelous and inspiring thread. I'm very grateful.

Grazie mille e spero ci vediamo a Locanda!

[polack]

Pia and Ingles, this was an excellent thread that took me back some 40+ years on my visit to Italy and Sicily. The only trouble was I was in the Navy and really didn't have the oppertunity to see and taste the foods of all of your wonderful country.

Polack

[Igles Corelli]

It's me the one who has to say "Thanks". Because people like me exist because you are there, with your expectations, with your stimulating questions, with your appreciations. I enjoyed to be here, really, and I wish that Pia will keep me up-dated with the discussions. I can't promise that I'll learn English, as I can't ensure Pia that I'll be on a diet for the next 12 months ... , but I promise, provided that someone is going to help me with translations, to pop up from time to time on this Forum.

So long, guys! It has been great to meet you!

Igles

[chefzadi]

Chef Corelli-

I too benefit from having a wife who has a greater command of English than myself. It's a good thing to be married to a beautiful, charming and smart woman.

Thank you again Chef Corelli!

[pia]

Chef Corelli-

I too benefit from having a wife who has a greater command of English than myself.  It's a good thing to be married to a beautiful, charming and smart woman. 

Thank you again Chef Corelli!

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[chefzadi]

Chef Corelli-

I too benefit from having a wife who has a greater command of English than myself.  It's a good thing to be married to a beautiful, charming and smart woman. 

Thank you again Chef Corelli!

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Bella, bella, bella! Bella Pia. Big kisses on both cheeks and hands from me to you.