Good coffee in Paris?

[NewYorkTexan]

I  have answers for 1) and 2) but not for 3) and 4).

1) Some of the best coffee to be purchased in Paris: Verlet, 256, rue Saint-Honoré.

2) All their coffees are good, some rare coffees may be bought only at their place. Ask them for advice. They will apply the right grind if you mention you're using a presspot (the best method, according to them).

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Let me second Verlet. They had a fantastic selection of coffees for purchase by the pound or presspot drinks.

It has been a few months, but I think I have their coffee menu somewhere at home.

[gdg]

hello

if you order :

un cafe ( you get an espresso )

un cafe serre ( you get a strong espresso )

un cafe tres serre ( more strong, italian taste )

une noisette ( you get an espresso with a drop of cold milk )

un cafe au lait ( you get a long espresso with milk )

un cafe allonge ( you get a lighter espresso )

un cafe tres allonge ( you can almost a regular american )

un capuccino ( you get a capuccino ... almost )

something like that, all those coffee are variations of espresso.

at home almost no one have espresso machine in france ( only recently it change a little ) and really the coffee is not that good ... but you know what i mean.

i don't know where you can have specially good espresso in Paris ( in good cafe you'll find good espresso in general ) but you can have a taste of some good french coffee at *le cafe de flore* there you order *un cafe pot* and you get something that look like a good home made french coffee ... the *cafe de flore* is anyway a good place to have some times, there is another cafe next door *les deux magots* nicer i think, but it,s an historic war between those two and i choose my side long time ago, *le cafe de flore*

there is probably a lot more to say, there is a lot more to say ... on request maybe

regards

gerard

hope my english is possible ... my grammar is terrible ... but i'll try to compensate

[Ptipois]

un cafe au lait ( you get a long espresso with milk )

This is only for breakfast and primarily for breakfast taken at home. The term "café au lait" is usually not heard in French cafés except from foreigners. But waiters know that it means a "crème" (one seldom hears the complete name, "café crème") so they give them a crème. You may have a grand crème or a petit crème, but lately cafés tend to have only one size (large or medium). That's a strange feature of the French language: "café au lait" is home talk, while "café crème" is exactly the same thing outside of the domestic realm.

In a Paris café, a "crème" will never be coffee + cream, always coffee + milk (warmed). The days when it used to be coffee with cream are far behind, at least in Paris. There may be a lot of milk or just a little, you can always influence the result by saying "beaucoup de lait" or "pas trop de lait". Most of the time the small amount of milk will not suffice to soften the acrid, bitter and burnt taste of overheated robusta.

[Bux]

my grammar is terrible ... but i'll try to compensate

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Here in the forums we tend to value content over form. The English and the Americans can't always agree on spelling or grammar anyway. Weldome to the eG Forums.

[gdg]

hi

thank you Bux ...

if you azsk for :

"un double express" you get a double espresso

"un double serre" you get a double strong espresso

... and if you ask for a "cafe au lait" you get an espresso with milk ... but yes.

gerard

[Bux]

I wonder how long "noisette" has been around as a term for ordering coffee. It's likely that we've been visiting France since before many members were born, I'll understand the urge from many to say "forever.' We first heard the term used in the south of France and assumed it was a regional usage, but we soon discovered it was understood all over France. I do not believe it was in use in the sixties.

[Ptipois]

... and if you ask for a "cafe au lait" you get an espresso with milk ... but yes.

You get it because everyone understands what it means, but I only wanted to point out that this is not the proper café term.

Café au lait is something you make at home, most of the time in a bowl instead of a cup, and mostly for breakfast. My grandmother did use to love her afternoon "café au lait" in a big bowl with tartines. The milk-to-coffee ratio is rather large in this case. If you order a "crème" in a café, the ratio is the reverse. A café au lait is pretty much like a caffelatte, but always at home and never in a glass.

[Ptipois]

I wonder how long "noisette" has been around as a term for ordering coffee. It's likely that we've been visiting France since before many members were born, I'll understand the urge from many to say "forever.' We first heard the term used in the south of France and assumed it was a regional usage, but we soon discovered it was understood all over France. I do not believe it was in use in the sixties.

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The first time I heard the term "café noisette" was in a Paris café in the late 80s. I think it sounded sort of new to everyone present, though I don't know how old it really is. Since then I got to hear it more frequently.

[gdg]

today in Paris you probably find the best coffee at the bar of the very good hotels, the palace's, and sometimes you can even find a real barman, "old school", then you may have whatever you like, he'll make the coffee you want, capuccino as well ... i don't go out much anymore but i suppose that if you go at the bar of the Ritz you can have a good coffee, there in the spring you can have a great "petit dejeuner" ( breakfast ) in a nice garden, you can go to the Plaza where the bar is interesting, i think ... the "Lutetia" with live jazz at night ... you'll have good coffee there i believe ... at the hotel "Costes" is the trendy place right now, you'll have a coffee ... again i'm not going out those days but i believe there is some others great place like this, the "Hotel" ( rue des beaux arts ) use to have a great bar with unexpected people around, but i don't go there for years ... the hotel "Pont royal" where Joel Robuchon recently open "L'atelier" ( diner around 100 dollars ) should have something that look like a coffee ... and if you want milk in it, ask for "un cafe ... avec un petit pot de lait " milk that you can have hot ( chaud ) or cold ( froid ) ... oui ?

gerard

[phaelon56]

Gosh I wonder how Owen's doing.  No news is good news I assume.  

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Yes... it is indeed good news. I'm still catching up on office work, shoveling out from under the storm etc. but promise to post back soon on both this and my other Paris prep trip thread.

For now to keep things simple: I was overwhelmed by Paris - the people, the pace of living, the pure aesthetic pleasure of drinking in the surroundings, the food, the food and again... the food. I'd move there tomorrow if circumstances permitted but I'd also open a real espresso bar.

Admittedly, we did not visit any upscale tea salons nor did we get to Cafe Flore or the basement of Colette's but I tried "cafe", "cafe serre", "cafe au lait / cafe creme" and even a cappuccino in many places. With only two exceptions none of it was horrid but it was nearly all best described as flaccid, uninspired, lacking in real character and grossly overpriced relative to the quality.

That said... I'm being a bit unfair here as I'm comparing Parisian coffee (meaning the cafe or noisette one orders in a brasserie, bistro or restaurant) to Italian espresso or the best of North American espresso. The two drink styles are made with similar beans (in many cases) and using similar equipment but that's where the similarity ends - I'm not certain that there's any real desire on the part of those producing or drinking that coffee to have things done differently.

More later.

[gdg]

you can't expect good coffee "in general" in paris ... the overall quality of the bar/cafe in paris goes down, it's expansive and most of the time not good, i wonder where you find such great food ... and again ??? where you have bad coffee "in general" you have bad food ...even the bread is not that good those days in those bars ... you have to know where to go ... but if you know and go somewhere else ?

[spaghetttti]

Gosh I wonder how Owen's doing.  No news is good news I assume.  

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[... the food, the food and again... the food. I'd move there tomorrow if circumstances permitted but I'd also open a real espresso bar.

More later.

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Welcome back, Owen!

[Bux]

... you have to know where to go ...

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Sadly, this is true all over. Even in Paris one needs to do research to be sure of getting good food. It's still a lot easier than in many other countries, and even with the dollar as low as it is, I think it's easier to eat well on a budget in Paris than in NY and often more satisfying to splurge there. I don't know where to slurge on the coffee, but the pasty is another story.

[John Talbott]

As i exited customs this AM, I was tempted to have a quick serre, but on seeing the pathetic croissants and dilute almost American coffee, headed home for a hit of (yes) cheapo Monoprix all Arabica espresso serre.

[gdg]

good idea John ... coffee in bars around my place ( and i live fifty meters from "L'ambroisie", i mean in the heart of the city ) is so bad that i start to like "american" better, i mean when i go to those bars around i order a very long espresso, and sometimes i add hot water until i have a good regular, until the awful taste dissapear ... in fact now i love napolitan coffee with the machinetta, i think i forget what's a good espresso, even if i have a machine at home

[gdg]

i forgot the croissants, i don't have one since ...... pathetic is the exact word ... really i don't have a good croissant for a long time in a bar

[Bux]

As i exited customs this AM, I was tempted to have a quick serre, but on seeing the pathetic croissants and dilute almost American coffee, headed home for a hit of (yes) cheapo Monoprix all Arabica espresso serre.

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Context and relativity are most important. I don't drink coffee on an airplane, but on arrival in France, I am most likely to stop for my first cup of espresso. I will usually have a dose of nameless carbohydrates as well. They label it as croissant, but to call it pathetic would be to flatter it.

gdg, from time to time I still find an acceptable croissant in a bar, but it's not as often as I used to. Don't get me started or I will sound like the old curmudgeon I am. The French croissant has seen it's better days. For a while, the one thing I was able to enjoy about coming back to NY after a trip to France was the quality of the croissants at my local pastry shop in NYC. Alas, they've deteriorated so much that even on a nice day I'm content to have a breakfast of cereal and milk rather than take the walk I used to enjoy even in rain and snow. We live in hope, but even the newer shop whose croissants were almost twice the price and who won me away, now bakes croissants of such unreliability that I refuse to gamble so early in the morning lest my whole day be ruined at the start.

[Bux]

Miss Sylvia delivers a decent espresso, with crema on a good day when the Danesi arabica beans are fresh and the gods are on our side. Miss Sylvia is the name of our espresso machine. It's not my knickname, but that given to her by the Italian manufacturer.

[menton1]

i forgot the croissants, i don't have one since ...... pathetic is the exact word ... really i don't have a good croissant for a long time in a bar

I agree-- it seems that perhaps croissants are "passé" in France; the most common accompaniment to a café is the "Tartine" which is a nice, fresh piece of crusty baguette along with a wonderful slather of french butter and a side of a confiture. Fabulous!

[phaelon56]

The term "good food" is relative. Living in a small city in central NY state and traveling regularly to other parts of the country, I can safely say that the overall quality of food in Paris is far superior to what one encounters in most parts of the US. It's not to say that one can't find comparable food here in the US but IMHO in most areas, even Manhattan, it takes a bit more looking around than in Paris to get good quality take-out food or moderately priced casual meals. Additonally, once out of the touristy areas and sometimes even within them, meals were often a better bargain than in the US. Rather than continue to stray OT I'll reserve that discussion for a separate trip report thread and return to coffee.

My first Paris coffee experience was the coffee we received with the Continental breakfast our first morning at the hotel. It was abysmal - about like bad US restaurant coffee. Perhaps a step above gas station swill but not tolerable as anything other than a basic caffeine delivery vehicle. We switched to tea the next day but the assortment of breads, rolls, croissants etc. that comprised the breakfast were so insipid that we passed on breakfast for the remainder of our stay. I bought decent fruit from a metro station vendor and ate that in the room each morning followed by a coffee break during our wanderings.

We tried cafe and even a cafe serre or two in a variety of places and found the following to hold true as a general rule:

• º The espresso blends are most often Illy, Lavazza, Segafredo or other types that typically have a mild flavor profile
  º Large amounts of beans are pre-ground and sitting in the doser of the grinder for lengthy periods - no one is grinding by the shot. Beans ground for espresso that are not used within a few minutes after grinding become stale and flat - that's a fact.
  º No one - I mean no one - is doing real tamping. Only in an Italian cafe did we see tamping and that was of the most cursory variety using the built in tamper on the side of the Mazzer grinder. Most places didn't even level off the grounds in the portafilter before pulling the shot.
  º Shot pull times were often short yet the volume was larger than I'd expect. Most of the drinks I ordered were about 1.5 oz for a single shot.
  º One might expect a "serre" to be akin to an Italian or US "ristretto" (a "restricted pull" espresso shot that uses a finer grind with the standard amount of beans - the result typically being a denser, sweeter shot of reduced fluid volume if all other factors are carefully controlled). What I received appeared to just be a shorter shot - reduced pull time and less fluid volume - no substantive difference in the characteristics of the espresso itself.
  º Body of the coffee I tried was thin. The crema was close to non-existent and was tan in color. This fact, combined with the overall flavor profile points to under-extraction as a typical practice.
  

Is all of this a bad thing? If you're looking for the true espresso experience that many of us appreciate it's certainly not a good thing. I can attest however, that apart from a shot I had at a small Metro station take-away counter, none of that coffee was bitter or acrid asStarbucks espresso tends to be or the way much of the bad espresso served in the US often ends up.

One morning midway through the week I succumbed to curiosity and tried the Starbucks around the corner from our hotel. The staff was truly baffled and amused when I ordered a "tall quad shot latte". That is - two double espresso shots with about seven ounces of foamed milk - a 2 to 1 ratio of espresso to milk. I was disappointed to see superauto machines in use and an auto-frothing system but the drink was very consistent with what one can expect to receive at Starbucks in the US. The bitterness of their espresso cuts through the milk effectively but was a bit of a shock after several days of experiencing the mellow character of a standard cafe noisette drunk straight black.

Interesting facts about Starbucks in Paris: all the crazy "dessert drinks" that dominate the US Starbucks were not hyped or listed on the menu board (excepting frozen Frappuccino). The only "machiatto" they had listed was a true Italian style drink - espresso marked with a small bit of milk foam - not the caramel flavored whipped cream topped abomination foisted on the US market. Press pot coffee was available at $4 Euros per pot (appeared to be a 16 - 20 ounce pot) and china mugs/cups were available for on-premises consumption

The best cafe creme / cafe au lait we had was at a small neighborhood creperie (Le Quimper) where we dined on our first evening in town. Although it had a bit too too much milk there was a decent although not robust robust enough flavor from the coffee. The cafe I tried subsequently in other locations ranging from brasseries and bistros to restaurants was consistent in that it was similar from one place to another. The overall qualities were disappointing to me and likely would be to anyone familiar with and enamored of traditional espresso.

I might best describe the coffee I had as a sort of concentrated version of a good quality drip coffee but at $3.50 to $5.00 US for a demi-tasse.... a good deal it's not.

On our way to the Musee Picasso in the Marais district we spotted an Italian cafe -can't recall the name but the theme of the decor and the name were based around Italian scooter culture - pictures of Vespa's adorned the walls etc. My excitement mounted when I glanced in the window and spotted a classic Faema espresso machine - an oldie but truly a goodie that appeared to be in good working order.

The double cafe I received at the bar was better than any other espresso I tried in Paris but fell far short of matching the quality of espresso I've consumed countless times at independent cafe's in the US.

You might note that the crema pictured has hints of the deep reddish brown color typical of great espresso but it fell short in the cup. The one place I held out hope for was Cafe Danton, suggested by an eGullet member who greatly enjoyed the coffee there. It's across from the Odeon Metro station but apart from some excellent stinky cheese purchased at the fromagerie next door our visit there was for naught. The coffee there wasn't bad but was more of the same.

The real surprise came from a food court operation in the underground mall adjacent to the Louvre entrance. Cafe Muffin has the usual assortment of commercial baked goods, inc some cases not dissimilar to what one sees in the US. Like the other places we tried, there appeared to be little attention payed to process quality but they did offer "cappuccino" in addition to cafe creme. After a bit of struggling to make my desire clear.... that I wanted a double dose of espresso in the cup with the foamed milk.... I enjoyed a cappuccino that was by far the best milk based drink of the entire week - far from outstanding but greatly superior to a Starbucks drink to say the least.

I was also a bit shocked to visit the neighborhood Monoprix, which had a large "specialty foods" section in the basement, and discover that the only coffee in stock was pre-ground - not a single back of whole bean to be had. What's up with that?

The good news: On Thursday we had the exquisite pleasure of enjoying the best hot chocolate I'm ever likely to try in this lifetime. A trip to Paris is not complete without a visit to la Charlotte de l'isle at 24 Rue au 'lisle on Ile Ste. Louis. Open Thursday through Sunday from 2 PM onwards, Charlotte serves a drink I've seen described elsewhere as "the absinthe of hot chocolates". It was so stunningly sensuous, rich and layered in flavor and texture that words are completely inadequate. Be patient - with five smalltables and the capacity to hold no more than 12 - 15 patrons at any one time you may wait for a seat but it will be worth it.

If we'd visited Paris and done nothing but experience this one slice of pleasure I'd consider the entire trip to be a smashing success but it was far more than that.

The cafe window is full of odd chocolate creations.

The interior is decidedly eclectic but charming.

Presentation always counts. Crackled earthenware demi-tasse cups accompanied by a carafe of water and delicate shot glasses for cleansing the palate were thoughtful and crucial accompaniments for properly savoring the nectar.

As usual... I was blessed and charmed by the company of my fiancée (yes - it's true - we are now officially engaged and you heard it here first!). It's doubtful that I deserve to be this lucky but I don't question destiny.

[Ptipois]

I agree-- it seems that perhaps croissants are "passé" in France;  the most common accompaniment to a café is the "Tartine" which is a nice, fresh piece of crusty baguette along with a wonderful slather of french butter and a side of a confiture.  Fabulous!

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Let's not be too pessimistic in calling croissants "passé". Those who were in France in the 70's may remember how terrible ordinary bread was in boulangeries. That was when many of those places had become nothing more than "terminaux de cuisson", shaping and baking industrially-made bread dough. The corporation of "artisans boulangers" have fought for the quality of bread, resulting in the Balladur law (sometime in the 90's I believe) strictly redefining the quality of bread. Now things have improved greatly and it is again possible to find good baguettes in Paris.

However, the same problem that plagued baguettes some thirty years ago is now cursing our croissants, whose dough is often industrially-made and sent to bakeries to be baked. That is why the quality has plummeted in recent years and croissants taste very much the same almost everywhere.

I think there is going to be another fight for this cause, and good croissants may be available again sometime. But there we are now, some bakers still make their own croissants and you can still find great croissants in Paris. But you have to do a bit of searching.

It is a pity, generally speaking, that good pâtisseries are disappearing gradually from the streets. It has become pretty difficult to find good pâtisserie and viennoiserie in shops, except for hyped and expensive places. It now seems that the best pâtissiers in France are now employed in the kitchens of two-star or three-star chefs. Those who have and tasted one of Gilles Marchal's croissants at le Bristol for breakfast will know what I am talking about.

Maybe it is not only up to the boulangers-pâtissiers. Maybe it is also up to us, the public, to insist on having the good croissants back to our neighborhood shops.

[waves2ya]

I was blessed and charmed by the company of my fiancée (yes - it's true - we are now officially engaged and you heard it here first

That too!

Congrat's Owen - in Paris, no less - wonderful!

Sounds like you had quite the time in the City of Lights - hard not to...

Could be quite the career teaching the French (!) something about fresh beans and espresso technique. They'd resent it but begrudgingly line up at your door for the better cafe experience and before ya knew it, you'd be the toast of the town.

Need a hand?

[Culinista]

My corner roastery in Paris used to be Bru^lerie des Ternes, in the Poncelet market, where I bought my beans whenever I ran out of Venezuelan coffee at home. It wasn't a world-class caffeine emporium, but it smelled nice and was convenient.

In general, I have to agree with Bux about French vs. Spanish coffee in bars and restaurants. Maybe I've been biased by my Spanish in-laws, but I find run-of-the mill French coffee to be an odd mix of harsh and flat at the same time.

It's terribly expensive, but sometimes we treated ourselves to coffee and a croissant (a l'ancienne is classic but the noix is almost too decadent) among the power breakfasters and tourists at Laduree on the Champs-Elysees. (Coffee comes in a heacy silver pot only in the salon, none at the takeout counter.) The fact that it was next door to my husband's office never helped.

Brasserie Lorraine has a good quiche Lorraine in their generally overpriced menu, but I often stopped there for coffee because it was a little better than average and Francisco made sure it came with a little coffret of mini-macarons. Usually, there was an elderly lady in the corner. She also got the macarons, even though she only orders a glass of water. Little touches like that made the coffee taste better.

PS. I forgot my other neighborhood cafe/boulangerie, the Ducasse-owned Be. Very respectable cafe and croissant there. This was the closest bakery to my house. No wonder I couldn't lose weight!

Edited February 2, 2005 by Culinista (log)

[marlena spieler]

Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

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It's good to hear someone French explain the horrid condition of French coffee and confirm why I always note which restos serve Illy. Luckily my Monoprix has Illy and I don't need to go farther.

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Try Union Roasters coffee at The Rose BAkery on rue des Martyrs. Union Roasters is, beileve it or not, a British company, two fine guys who went to do scientific research in california and fell in love with Peets Coffee. they trains with them, and voila: source (ethically) and roast the best beans in the land.

and i'm a big coffee-in-Naples fan.

try their foundation blend.....dark and yummy., though i like revolution blend too.

marlena

[pim]

Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

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It's good to hear someone French explain the horrid condition of French coffee and confirm why I always note which restos serve Illy. Luckily my Monoprix has Illy and I don't need to go farther.

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Popping into this old thread to recommend another great coffee place (a rarity in Paris) in the Marais. Cafe Amazone on rue Rambuteau. The old gentleman who runs the place roasts the beans himself in that little shop. He sells a number of single-origin beans and will grind them to any specification. That's my first stop when I get into Paris, usually, together with Mariage Freres in the same neighbourhood for tea. My blend there is half Maragogype and half Bresilien, grinded for a press pot.

I am with Ptipois and John on coffee in Paris. They are generally horrible because of the quality of the beans. And don't get me started on those Nespresso capsule thingy!

Another problem with coffees in French cafes is the type of milk used. Often the cafe creme is made with sterilized milk, because the milk could be stored without refridgeration, and has a much longer shelf life than regular pasteurized milk. Sterilized milk is sold almost everywhere in France, and often at corner stores it is the only type of milk to be found!

Having grown up in Asia and suffered through the unmistakable stench of sterilized milk since I was a little girl. I can usually identify if the milk was sterilzed with a single whiff. Ugh.

[edited to add: Comptoir Richard on rue St.Dominique also has good coffee, but they forgot to girnd the beans for me when I bought coffee there last time, requiring a return trip to get the coffee grounded, another ugh.)

Edited June 17, 2005 by pim (log)