Reviewing NYC Pizza

[David Lerner]

"Piled up to the sky" doesn't sound like you are discussing pizza - some other dish entirely I think.

Edited March 20, 2005 by David Lerner (log)

[slkinsey]

I have a theory about the way people think about pizza.

For some people, pizza is CRUST (with some stuff on top). This is the way I think about pizza, and the way I think most Italians think about pizza. For this reason, the idea of "bagel pizza" or "French bread pizza" doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the crust? For other people, perhaps most in America, pizza is PIZZA TOPPINGS (on top of something). This is where the "piled to the sky = good" philosophy comes from. I'm not making a judgment here... just pointing out that there are differences.

One thing that happened to a lot of Italian foods that came to America and became Italian-American foods is that they became more about the condiments than the base ingredients. Take pasta, for example. In Italy, pasta dishes are about the pasta and the sauce is there as an accent to enhance the pasta. In America, however, pasta dishes have become much more about the sauce than the pasta -- the pasta is simply a vehicle for the sauce. For this reason, the typical American pasta dish has around triple the amount of sauce compared to the typical Italian pasta dish. To make another example about pasta, an Italian would never call a dish "lasagne" that didn't actually contain lasagne, whereas in America we would have no problem layering up sauce and cheese with thin slices of potato and calling the result "potato lasagna."

This is not to say that the "toppings are king" outlook is wrong, although it doesn't happen to be one I share. The famous and delicious Di Fara pizzeria produces a fundamentally topping-centric pizza. I think Patsy's or Franny's could easily do business in pizza topped with nothing more than rosemary, sea salt and evoo (often called a "ciclista" in Italy) because people would revel in the amazing crust. But I don't think this is something Di Fara would sell very well, because the crust isn't what makes that pizza great.

[Pan]

Right, Sam, but DiFara's hardly piles their toppings to the sky. We're talking about a matter of degree as much as kind, I think.

[emmapeel]

I have two more places that I think are very good, but both are for take out. If you are of the mind set that pizza must be eaten directly from the oven, then these places are not for you. One is the Sullivan Street Bakery, which serves a type of "ciclista," and other types, many without toppings. The other is Levain Bakery on W74th Street. Although it is a gas oven, they sell a carmelized onion, a mushroom, and a seasonal one, currently that is artichoke. The crust is charred (but gas, remember) and so delicious.

[slkinsey]

Right, Sam, but DiFara's hardly piles their toppings to the sky. We're talking about a matter of degree as much as kind, I think.

Well... I'm not sure I entirely agree that it's a matter of degree rather than kind. IMO, Di Fara is fundamentally "NYC slice shop pizza" elevated to the Nth degree. As such, it's fundamentally about the toppings rather than the crust. That said, I would agree that, within the context of pizza that is fundamentally about the toppings, he doesn't pile on the ingredients. Within the context of pizza that is fundamentally about the crust (e.g., compared to Franny's or Patsy's) it is a bit "piled on," though.

[Pan]

Right, Sam, but DiFara's hardly piles their toppings to the sky. We're talking about a matter of degree as much as kind, I think.

Well... I'm not sure I entirely agree that it's a matter of degree rather than kind. IMO, Di Fara is fundamentally "NYC slice shop pizza" elevated to the Nth degree. As such, it's fundamentally about the toppings rather than the crust. That said, I would agree that, within the context of pizza that is fundamentally about the toppings, he doesn't pile on the ingredients. Within the context of pizza that is fundamentally about the crust (e.g., compared to Franny's or Patsy's) it is a bit "piled on," though.

←

I find nothing to disagree with here. I didn't say it was a matter of degree rather than kind.

[GaijinGirl]

Re: Defending my "piled to the sky" comment...!

After reading the subsequent posts, I felt I had to justify/clarify my earlier post about Nicky's in my neighborhood:

I will say that I haven't yet had authentic, traditional pizza (such as Patsy's, DiFara's?) So I don't have a basis of comparison.

I can say that my taste has always run to ultra-thin and crispy, which I'm assuming based on these posts is what 'real' pizza should be (granted, my experience for that has been mainly Pizza Hut back in the mid-west!)

But as for Nicky's, which is not thin - it's still an amazing experience. There's a chicken, green pepper and onion slice that's a meal unto itself. Not a thin crust, and yes, it is 'piled to the sky', and it's a wonderful experience. My husband and I shared a slice, and it filled us both up and tasted great.

Might not be traditional, but it sure is good.

[gaf]

Four Slices of Brooklyn - New York City Entry #8

Trekking through Brooklyn, searching for the perfect slice, from ethnic Midwood in central Brooklyn to Brooklyn Heights, viewing Lower Manhattan, is to be reminded of the diversity of humble pizza. Bread, tomato, and cheese - the stuff of life. It should be simple, but so many choices must be made.

In New York City, pizza is typically heated by coal, and so it was at our choices [correction: Di Fara uses a gas oven]: Di Fara (in Midwood), Peperoncino (in Park Slope), Caserta Vecchia (in Boerum Hill) and Grimaldi's (near Brooklyn Heights). If pizza is known by their crust, these are all within the broad range of New York style pizza, having neither the cake-crust or crispy cracker-crust found in Chicago. Of these four, Di Fara, and not the award-winning Grimaldi's, was the one that brought me to the doorstep of my childhood pizza memories.

For those who label themselves "chowists" searching for a fantasy of perfect authenticity and uncorrupted artisans, Di Fara is the place. Chowhound's Jim Leff (who gives Di Fara's his highest rating) and Ed Levine of Pizza: A Slice of Heaven (who counts Domenico DeMarco as one of his "keepers of flame") should not be dismissed lightly. As Mr. DeMarco explained to us and to Ed Levine, he is "very proud of what he does." Let us lobby for a culinary heritage award.

When we arrived in the mostly silent area of Midwood on Saturday morning, an area labeled as "Kosher Brooklyn" by Myra Alperson, Di Fara was, like its neighbors, closed. Yet, as the 11:00 a.m. opening time, we could hear Mr. DeMarco puttering behind locked doors. Finally he took pity on us and let us in through the back, even before he was fully ready. He works alone, creating pizzas by hand, one at a time. He is an artist of the first rank.

Customers must have known of his schedule as we were the first diners for about fifteen minutes. Entering through the back might not be something that would be recommended for health inspectors, but the grease and dirt certainly added points for authenticity to the 1960s pizzeria in a neighborhood for which today a pizzeria might not be a natural foodstuff. I imagine that more than one once-devout teen violated kasherut laws, chewing Pieman DeMarco's pepperoni (Pepperoni can be made from beef, but that was not the case here). In the window boxes on Avenue J were his herbs - basil, rosemary, and oregano - that were to give their lives for these exemplary pies.

This was our first pizza of the morning, and we ordered a pizza straight up and one with pepperoni. What first impressed me was the quality of the ingredients. The tomato sauce (both fresh and canned) had a complexity that comes from a master's hand adding those herbs that create the synergy of a New York pizza. The sauce was sweet, but had the pungency of an oregano base. The cheeses - God's cheese (Mozzarella, Romano, and Parmesan) - were impeccably fresh, and blended with the tomato sauce to provide a pizza in which each bite contained a consistency of flavors. The edge crust was close to the Platonic ideal of a New York bread crust.

The single weakness was that the pizza seemed slightly undercooked. Not much, but enough to notice. The bottom was not burned or even singed, and the structure of the pizza allowed each slice to become immediately flaccid when raised to one's lips. The point of the slice pointed straight down. As we could see Mr. DeMarco checking the bottom of the pizza, possibly this was his style. But in my view an erect slice should only slowly become limp, cherishing its brief victory over gravity. (Pizza is a rare food whose imagined eroticism generously lends itself bisexual fantasies. Consumption can be doubly gratifying for amorous diners). Since New York pizza is a street food, not eaten, as in Naples with knife and fork, this disappointed. However, I found Di Fara the closest slice to my ideal, and had one been able, as at a reputable steakhouse, to return the pie for a touch more heat, it might have reached my ideal. Leaving I informed Mr. DeMarco that he is my hero and so he is.

Peperoncino in Park Slope is a different place: not a pizzeria, but restaurant, much attuned with its renovated neighbors. Brooklyn is the new home of an array of mid-priced restaurants for upper-middle class New Yorkers who find the newly elegant townhouse throughout the hills and slopes of northwestern Brooklyn satisfying their real estate yearnings (even pizza follows realty). Peperoncino aims at this market, despite the connection of the pieman with the owners of Caserta Vecchia and despite the claim that their ingredients were shipped from Napoli.

I found Peperoncino's the least successful pizzas of the day, each failing to entice me. We ordered a Margherita (tomato, fior di latte [a mozzarella-type soft cow's milk cheese], and basil), a Diavola (tomato, fior di latte, and spicy sausage), and a Pizza do'mare (tomato, calamari, mussels, clams, and shrimp). The tomato sauce was properly sweet but lacked complexity. I could taste no hint of basil, no fennel pungency in the sausage, and the shrimp was tough. Add the general soupiness of the sauce, creating a soggy crust (more characteristic of the Napoli style) and, despite the pleasant surroundings, these were not pies of my dreams.

A connection exists between Peperoncino's and Caserta Vecchia in Boerum Hill (the now-gentrified locale of Jonathan Lethem's magical realist account, Fortress of Solitude). The pieman's wife's grandmother (get that?) had been the piemaker at Caserta, Maddalena Carusone, according to Ed Levine she may have been the first female commercial pie'r. Caserta Vecchia had burned down in 2002, and the new establishment is rather spiffy, although not as elegant as Peperoncino's.

The pies at Caserta Vecchia were the first of the day that had a proper structure, holding gravity at bay. Unfortunately CV does not serve classic pizzas (tomato sauce and cheese), so we selected the Margherita (mozzarella, tomato sauce, and basil) and their Quattro Formaggi (Fior di Latte, Gorgonzola, Parmesan, and Fontina). The Gorgonzola provided a tang, providing the four cheeses with a rare pungency. The tomato sauce on the Margherita was, like that at Peperoncino's, a simple blend. More troubling was the crust seemed chewy. Although the structure of the pizza was fine, the crust seemed somewhat undercooked.

Finally we reached Grimaldi's, huddled modestly under the Brooklyn Bridge, perhaps the favorite pizzeria of New Yorkers. (In the 2005 Zagat's Di Fara, properly gets the nod, with the same rating as Babbo, yes!). Grimaldi's is not an old-time New York pizzeria, but a 1990 breakaway from East Harlem's Patsy's, where Patsy Grimaldi began working for his uncle in 1941 at age ten. Only in New York would half of a placemat serve as an account of the legal battles: the Brooklyn "Patsy's" lost, becoming "Grimaldi's." The hurt may still be felt in the desire of the piemen not to be photographed while working, a request that Mr. DeMarco had accepted happily.

While waits can be excruciating at Di Fara (although not for morning customers), Grimaldi's is a pizza factory. A specialized team produces these worthy pies. One man (and they are all men, when I were present) worked the ovens, a second added the tomato sauce, and a third placed the cheese. This is not artisinal work, but Fordism at its best.

In both structure and ingredients, Grimaldi's was superior. The crust was properly charred and deliciously bready, the tomato sauce was complex, and the mozzarella was smooth with a subtle and supple aftertaste. The pepperoni was not the superior spicy meat at Di Fara, but was good enough. My complaint with the Grimaldi pie may be judged in terms of my childish vision of what a pie should be. Grimaldi's does not produce a pie of consistent taste, but blotches of cheese and of tomato sauce. The pizza is a map of red and white shapes, a rather garish gifted Christmas tie. While the pizza held up better than that at Di Fara, the consistent profile of the Di Fara triangle provides the edge.

Four pizzerias, one guileless dish. When it comes to the stuff of life, men of the oven find as many ways to create memories as there are ways to live.

Di Fara

1424 Avenue J (at 15th Street)

Brooklyn (Midwood)

718-258-1367

Peperoncino

72 Fifth Avenue

Brooklyn (Park Slope)

718-638-4760

Caserta Vecchia

221 Smith Street

Brooklyn (Boerum Hill)

718-624-7549

Grimaldi's

19 Old Fulton Street

Brooklyn (near Brooklyn Heights)

718-858-4300

My Webpage: Vealcheeks

Edited September 18, 2005 by gaf (log)

[Pan]

Interesting thoughts from you, as I'm growing accustomed to. One demurral, though: DiFara's does not use a coal oven. As a matter of fact, I was there this afternoon, introducing a colleague to the place, and having delicious pizza as usual (square slice with porcini and artichokes this time, and he had a regular slice with pepperoni and mushrooms). I'm trying to remember what time we were there. Anyway, Dom's oven is an old gas oven.

Also, not only is the pepperoni at DiFara's made from pork, but if you have a look at this post, you'll see that one of the secrets of his tomato sauce is that he flavors it with prosciutto. So anyone who objects to having any pig byproducts in their food should not eat at DiFara's (well, maybe the calzone, but I wouldn't count on it).

[raji]

Four Slices of Brooklyn - New York City Entry #8

This is a really great writeup. I have not managed to get my ass out to Difara's and have really wanted to for the past few years. The allure of the single pizza auteur is irresistable.

I lived in DUMBO for 3 years and for many years now I have taken guests from all over the world to Grimaldi's. I've had to convince many a New Yorker that their pies are far better than the Patsy's clones and even Lombardi's all in Manhattan. But let me add that over an 8 year period, Grimaldi's has been CONSISTENTLY perfect. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and not a thing has changed in that period. So I'd actually say that they are more of a BMW factory - Patsy's is Ford.

I would also say that comparing a Margerhita and the Difara's pie is apples and oranges and I'm not sure how to resolve that.

My tips - Waits can be excruciating at Grimaldi's too so go at an off time. Stick to the margherita, antipasti, and look for the blackboard wine special. Most importantly, eat the entire pie within 6 minutes of it's arrival. Once it cools off it doesn't taste anywhere as good, and doesn't reheat well.

[slkinsey]

. . . let me add that over an 8 year period, Grimaldi's has been CONSISTENTLY perfect. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and not a thing has changed in that period. So I'd actually say that they are more of a BMW factory - Patsy's is Ford.

Boy, that has not been my experience! And I daresay it hasn't been the experience of most longtime Grimaldi's patrons who have reported in these forums. I've had some of the very best pizza of my life at Grimaldi's (generally just after they open for lunch), with an etherially light crust and open cornicione. But I've also had extremely disappointing pizza there as well, with leaden crust that simply does not excite.

Of course, whether one detects or cares about the wide variations in the crust at Grimaldi's will depend on one's preferences and priorities. For people who accord the toppings a large percentage of their attention, Grimaldi's will hardly ever disappoint. The toppings at Grimaldi's (especially the sausage and roasted red peppers) are absolutely first rate. And, if one wants a pizza with premium toppings and a better-than-average coal oven crust, and doesn't mind the variations in the crust, then I can see how Grimaldi's would seem consistently perfect. For me, only Grimaldi's crust at its best truly excites me. Due to this reason, my recommendation is the exact opposite of yours: I do not think that one should visit Grimaldi's during off-peak hours, as that is the time when the oven is most likely to be insufficiently heated. Rather, the best time to go is to show up maybe 15 minutes before they open for lunch and stand in line. A pizza fresh out of the blazing-hot Grimaldi's oven at 12:05 is simply far superior to one that comes out of the same oven, now not blazing-hot, at 3:00.

[raji]

. . . let me add that over an 8 year period, Grimaldi's has been CONSISTENTLY perfect. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and not a thing has changed in that period. So I'd actually say that they are more of a BMW factory - Patsy's is Ford.

Boy, that has not been my experience! And I daresay it hasn't been the experience of most longtime Grimaldi's patrons who have reported in these forums. I've had some of the very best pizza of my life at Grimaldi's (generally just after they open for lunch), with an etherially light crust and open cornicione. But I've also had extremely disappointing pizza there as well, with leaden crust that simply does not excite.

Of course, whether one detects or cares about the wide variations in the crust at Grimaldi's will depend on one's preferences and priorities. For people who accord the toppings a large percentage of their attention, Grimaldi's will hardly ever disappoint. The toppings at Grimaldi's (especially the sausage and roasted red peppers) are absolutely first rate. And, if one wants a pizza with premium toppings and a better-than-average coal oven crust, and doesn't mind the variations in the crust, then I can see how Grimaldi's would seem consistently perfect. For me, only Grimaldi's crust at its best truly excites me. Due to this reason, my recommendation is the exact opposite of yours: I do not think that one should visit Grimaldi's during off-peak hours, as that is the time when the oven is most likely to be insufficiently heated. Rather, the best time to go is to show up maybe 15 minutes before they open for lunch and stand in line. A pizza fresh out of the blazing-hot Grimaldi's oven at 12:05 is simply far superior to one that comes out of the same oven, now not blazing-hot, at 3:00.

←

Admittedly I only read through the last couple pages of this thread so I'd have to familiarize myself with the negative experiences. If so, I've had quite a run, I've probably been there about 75 times and to me it's one of New York's most consistent offerings. I've had the perfection you mention many many times. I AM familiar with the detracters but they're usually motivated by an unwillingness to go over to Brooklyn.

I don't do toppings I stick to the Margherita...

That's a good point about the oven temperature, but how do you know they don't keep it consistently heated all day long? The temperature goes down once they start using it?

I recommend off-peak just to beat what can be more than hour wait...

Edited September 18, 2005 by raji (log)

[slkinsey]

That's a good point about the oven temperature, but how do you know they don't keep it consistently heated all day long? The temperature goes down once they start using it?

Because I've talked to them about when they fire the oven.

Every time you put a pizza in the oven, some of that stored heat is transferred from the oven to the pizza. And, of course, some of it goes into the air, etc. You have an oven temperature of X degrees, then subtract heat in the amount of Y pizzas plus Z other heat losses over time, and you end up with X = X - (Y + Z) after a few hours.

[jgould]

Admin: This post transferred from the thread on Celeste.

merci samuel and daniel

another question:

which of the better known or well thought of pizzarias use a wood-fired brick oven, & which use a coal-fired brick oven?

(note: NOT interested in those with gas-fired ovens)

i believe lombardi's has a coal-fired brick oven

celeste? etc....

[slkinsey]

There are many of both. Off the top of my head, and in order of my preference:

Wood-fired

Franny's

Una Pizza Napoletana

Fornino (special gas/wood hybrid oven)

ápizz

Celeste

Waldy's Wood Fired Pizza & Penne

Coal-fired

Patsy's in East Harlem

Grimaldi's

Totonno's

Arturo's

Lombardi's

Angelo's

All locations of the Patsy's chain (not related to the East Harlem pizzeria, and not as good either)

Others worthy of note

Gonzo (grilled)

Otto (griddled)

[Daniel]

Slkinsey,

What is your opinion of Giorgione??? They too have that hybrid oven with wood and gas.

[slkinsey]

As far as I know, the Giorgione oven is just a small prefab wood-only oven. In any event, it's nothing like the massive technical masterpiece at Fornino. Fornino's oven can go up to something like 1000F (although they don't heat it that hot, and it may even be illegal to do so). Giorgione's seems to stay around 600.

I've been to Giorgione a few times. Thought it was okay, but not worth the trouble of going all the way over there. If I'm going to that kind of trouble, taking the L one stop into Brooklyn and going to Fornino is what I'll do.

[jgould]

thx samuel!

what type of oven does sal & carmine's on bwy & 101st , & demarco's @ w. houston & macdougal, have?

Edited October 3, 2005 by jgould (log)

[slkinsey]

They both use regular stainless steel deck ovens.

Sal & Carmine's is very good for what it is, a neighborhood slice joint, but not a destination pizzeria.

DeMarco's is an attempt on the part of Domenico DeMarco's children to duplicate DiFara pizza in Mahnattan. I understand that they are not getting much in the way of support or advice from their father, who the last I had heard had not even visited his children's pizzeria, and it shows. (Here is a thread on DeMarco's.)

[jgould]

DeMarco's is an attempt on the part of Domenico DeMarco's children to duplicate DiFara pizza in Mahnattan.  I understand that they are not getting much in the way of support or advice from their father, who the last I had heard had not even visited his children's pizzeria, and it shows.  (Here is a thread on DeMarco's.)

←

WOW! that's cruel. btw, recently passed DeMarco's restaurant on the corner (vs the pizzeria nxt door) & the tables now have white tablecloths.

[slkinsey]

Yes, this is a very odd and, to my mind, somewhat sad aspect of Dom's personality -- one that hints at a certain kind of narcissism under the exterior of the humble artisan. Not only has he to my knowledge made no real attempts to pass on his expertise, experience and craft to his children, whom he uses as gofers in his Brooklyn shop, but he seems to have actively resisted. You'd think that Domenico DeMarco's kids would be so experienced and steeped in their father's techniques by now that there would be little difference between a pizza from his hands and from his daughter's. But, as far as I know, he is the only one who has made a pizza at DiFara since the doors opened.

[Pan]

There are many of both.  Off the top of my head, and in order of my preference:

Wood-fired

Franny's

Una Pizza Napoletana

Fornino (special gas/wood hybrid oven)

ápizz

Celeste

Waldy's Wood Fired Pizza & Penne

Coal-fired

Patsy's in East Harlem

Grimaldi's

Totonno's

Arturo's

Lombardi's

Angelo's

All locations of the Patsy's chain (not related to the East Harlem pizzeria, and not as good either)

Others worthy of note

Gonzo (grilled)

Otto (griddled)

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Sam, do you think DiFara's is worthy of note for such a list?

[slkinsey]

He asked "which of the better known or well thought of pizzarias use a wood-fired brick oven, & which use a coal-fired brick oven. . . (note: NOT interested in those with gas-fired ovens)." That rules out DiFara, as it is a gas oven place. DiFara obviously belongs on any list of NYC's best pizzerie, but not on a list of coal and wood fired pizzerie.

[jgould]

He asked "which of the better known or well thought of pizzarias use a wood-fired brick oven, & which use a coal-fired brick oven. . . (note: NOT interested in those with gas-fired ovens)."  That rules out DiFara, as it is a gas oven place. DiFara obviously belongs on any list of NYC's best pizzerie, but not on a list of coal and wood fired pizzerie.

←

kudos, m. samuel for answering my question as it was asked!!! as you have stated, DiFara's is a very good pizza, i was interested in sampling only those with specific requirements.

thanks very much for the starter "list"

[Pan]

He asked "which of the better known or well thought of pizzarias use a wood-fired brick oven, & which use a coal-fired brick oven. . . (note: NOT interested in those with gas-fired ovens)."  That rules out DiFara, as it is a gas oven place. DiFara obviously belongs on any list of NYC's best pizzerie, but not on a list of coal and wood fired pizzerie.

←

Yeah, you're totally right.